religious "magic" items

[elgorade]

It seems like ordinary religion has no point in BW. Priests are just functionaries and the worshipers don't get any bonus. That's fine and may match people's beliefs in the real world. But in a world where magic works, some people can work miracles, or even summon angels, it seems a bit bland.

I was thinking of adding in some religious trinkets. Basically bonus dice for specific rolls which only work for characters who have a belief in the appropriate god. Then, with belief, investiture and a handy god, you could basically create yourself a minor magic item. Of course, it wouldn't work for anyone else, but that's not a bad thing.

Comments?

Elgorade

[Kublai]

Let's see some examples of what you're thinking.

I tried to expand upon the neglected Faithful with my Sacred Vows (http://www.burningwheel.org/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=24) idea. Except, no one seemed interested in them and no one plays Faithful characters in my games! :cry:

[luke]

that's funny. i coulda sworn I wrote helping rules for Faith because I felt exactly the same way you do... of course, I can't remember the page number because I don't have the books in front of me (because I am at work).

something about 20 pts of Will from a praying congregation grants +1D of Faith help. Seems pretty generous if you ask me.

anyone have their books in front of them?

-L

[spring_violet]

that's funny. i coulda sworn I wrote helping rules for Faith because I felt exactly the same way you do... of course, I can't remember the page number because I don't have the books in front of me (because I am at work).

something about 20 pts of Will from a praying congregation grants +1D of Faith help. Seems pretty generous if you ask me.

anyone have their books in front of them?

-L

I don't have my books with me, but that sounds pretty accurate.

My character in eruditus' Monday night game has Faith and I think it's been working out really well. Sure Abbi isn't as flashy as Glimm and his sorcery, but that's the way it should be. Faith and prayer bring quiet and occasional answers and resolutions. The big flashy miracles only happen very rarely (usually with some help from Artha).

I just like getting to write a prayer or two every game session :D Some examples from last night:

Ghen Jeid hear my prayer - the past reveals the present. Please help Glimm aid Sierra's rate of healing. The wounds on her body are grievous. His desire to help her is pure.

and later:

Ghen Jeid hear my prayer - the past reveals the present. Please protect us from the danger that lies in the water.

For the record - I failed both the rolls for these Blessings. But that certainly doesn't deter Abbi from praying.

[elgorade]

Abzu, of course, your memory is correct. I just hadn't made the (in retrospect obvioius) generalization to a congregation of non-Faithful praying and collectively getting a Faith roll. 35 ordinary people together could maybe give themselves a 5 or 6 die Faith attribute. Interesting.


I was thinking of something a bit different though. Something modeled roughly on Saint Christopher medals maybe. An ordinary character (not Faithful) could express his faith (lower case f) through a Belief. Further, perhaps such a character could go to a shrine and get an item blessed. (Or maybe the shrine would provide small trinkets to the faithful.) Basically the character would be getting the benifit of a semi-perminant blessing --- which is why I described it as a minor magic item --- "paid" for by his belief and maybe a fate point for investiture.

[elgorade]

Kublai, your sacred vows seem like a similar idea, but much more open ended. They also add in a new facet to the character. He isn't required to have a Belief in the appropriate being or action, just take a Vow. I just wanted a way for a faithful but not Faithful character to have his Belief reflected in the game. (Of course, a Faithful character can use it too, and essentially for free since they would probably already have a belief in their God.)

Another way of looking at my suggestion is as a way to introduce some +1D "magic" items into the game w/o them becoming fully generic (because using them takes a Belief).

[Kublai]

Blessing items... I don't see why that couldn't work. Sometimes, one of our player's prayers for a blessing which is contigency-based - the blessing won't take effect until the proper stimulus triggers it. This blessing could easily be placed on an item, I suppose. The only thing is that it would be a one-shot item.

The difference between a magic item created through Faith versus Sorcery is that the Faith-based item should be created by an event. I am looking to our own religious history for this; the Holy Grail, fragments of the Cross, the Ark of the Covenant - and that's just the Christian ones. These all began as mundane items that acquired great power from the circumstances they were involved in. In BW terms, I suppose these items earned traits! Faith in those items increases their power.

[elgorade]

I agree that all the big religious items are event based. They are fragments of some important religious person or occurance. But what about the knight who stays up on a vigil all night praying over his sword? Or the Jesus status on the dash of a cab? Or a Saint Christopher's medal for luck on a journey?

It seems like popular Christianity used to provide people little trinkets that were assumed to provide a blessing (protection, aid, guidence, something) for certain actions and situations. Little things that a devot person might carry, generally aligned with a specific task being undertaken, a profession or the focus of the person's beliefs.

I'm suggesting that they could be +1D items, tied to specific skills or tasks. Of course, since they get their power from a God, they only work for characters who believe in that god. And because stories don't seem to limit such things to only working for Saints (who seem to be people with the Faith trait), I would think of allowing them to work for anyone with an appropriate Belief.

They are similar to the Sacred Vows idea in some ways. But they couldn't be picked up on the spur of the moment, and the bonus would seem to be more limited/focused.

[eruditus]

The questions I would ask would be:

What is it that makes an item be imbued with such power. I know its usually subtle (+1D or better yet, -1 ob) but do you think there is going to be a codified means for producing such things?

I think I am going to have to add an entire section on religious items. i like the idea of being event driven. So do we do rules for this happening or is it GM/story driven?

I see items like this being part of the background of some adventure. I ran a 7th Sea game once where the PCs were the secret stewards of a cloak of a martyr and another where they carried a sacred gaunlet. Due to the reverance of the noted items the PCs never found out if the items really ever had any power other thatn bestowing temporal power and summoning thugs to steal it.