VERY quick and easy clarification needed

[Paul B]

Okay, under "Security and Sensors," the Resource Obs listed for radio scanners (Ob 4 or 8) and Signals die enhancements (Ob 3, 5 or 7) seem to directly correspond to the tech points those things require in the Tech Burner. Given you get a variable # of tech points per Resource point according to your Tech Index, can I safely assume the Obs in Security and Sensors are incorrect, and in fact refer instead to tech points? Or did I misread something again?

Thanks!

p.

[Countercheck]

As I understand it, tech points = resource obsticle. Tech points only come into play during chargen. Any other time, you roll the obsticle.

[stormsweeper]

As I understand it, tech points = resource obsticle. Tech points only come into play during chargen. Any other time, you roll the obsticle.

Yep, see the heading on p. 382 "Technology Trait Points = Tech Resources Obstacle" (seriously, that's the heading).

[Paul B]

Here's my understanding: at Zero Index, I get 3 tech trait points per Resource Point. To buy a radio with +3d Signals, I'd have to muster up 11 tech trait points total (4 for the base Signals tool, 7 for +3 advantage dice). In the tech burner, at zero index, that means a total Resources test of 4 (with one tech trait point left...maybe a shiny brushed steel case? Spinny hubcaps?). It'd only be Ob3 at Low and High index (4 or 5 tech points per RP), but Ob6 at sub-index.

p.

[Paul B]

Yep, see the heading on p. 382 "Technology Trait Points = Tech Resources Obstacle" (seriously, that's the heading).

OOOOOHHH!

See, I knew I had to have been reading something wrong. Awesome. The tech trait point thing is only used during character burning! Got it.

Thanks everyone!

p.

[rogar308]

The book says tech resources obstacle n (where n = some number). If you are on a hi tech world that n would become n/5 irrespective of whether the tech was purchased during or after character burning no?

[Countercheck]

No, I don't believe so.

[rogar308]

No disrespect intended Mike but I'd feel better if somebody else could also confirm or refute your statement.

Steve
####

[Paul B]

Mike's right -- the local Tech Index isn't figured into your Resources test once the game starts. It only matters at character burning. A 7 tech trait point item is an Ob7 Resources test no matter what the tech index is once the game has started.

p.

[stormsweeper]

No disrespect intended Mike but I'd feel better if somebody else could also confirm or refute your statement.

Steve
####

Again, it's on page 382 of the book. Technology trait points set the base obstacle for the Resources test. You do not divide by anything.

[rogar308]

Ok. P378 Character Burning Technology (guess the CB part confirms Mikes statement as well) goes on to itemize tech worlds with resource points and tech trait points.

Sub: 1 RP = 2 TTP
Zero: 1 RP = 3 TTP
Low: 1 RP = 4 TTP
High: 1 RP = 5 TTP

Under that assumption we now flip to page 382 where it says in large bold print.

Technology Trait Points = Tech Resources Obstacle
TTP = TRO

If you build a high index world that means to me you divide the TTP or TRO by 5 to get the resource cost based on the tech table above.

How can it be otherwise???

I'm just trying to get this straight in my head here. Thanks for bearing with me.

Steve
####

[stormsweeper]

Page 378 covers what you do when making a character, page 382 covers what you do in play. The only commonality is they both start with the trait point cost.

[Countercheck]

There is a very large difference mechanically between perminantly spending a resource point and tacking a +1Ob to an action. Based on your interpretation of the rules, a car would be an Ob 1 test at Low index. A flying car would be an Ob 2 test. A military hammer cruiser would be an Ob 5 test. That's WAY too low; according to the list on page 360, an ob5 test is required to pay for PASSAGE on an interstellar voyage, let alone buying an interstellar warship. And those costs CERTAINLY shouldn't be divided by 4. I can easily burn a 5 lifepath freeman that could pay the 8/4Ob for his very own factory, ot the 14/4 Ob for his very own forged lord.

[rogar308]

Ok, I understand the rules regarding resources and how they are different between character burning and regular game play. Thanks dudes.
===

Mike, I hear what your saying about the obstacles but then again, they did put it in for character burning. To take your counter point, my Forged Lord with 15 RP's could buy 3 Hammer Cruisers at 4 RP's a pop during character burning for a high tech world but none afterwards even if he didn't spend a single RP. (Hammer Cruiser=obstacle 20). That just seems a bit odd to me.

With a x5 tech point advantage (for high tech worlds) to buy tech stuff during burning, my view is now shifting back to stocking up during burning again. I dunno, either that or work the fund exploit. I need more game time to really figure out which method will work better overall.

[Paul B]

It's a bit clearer now why you'd want to drop SOME RPs into burned stuff before play, isn't it? I don't see stocking up on everything, because you need to be flexible in play. I thing 6-8 Resources in play is pretty healthy; enough to loan out as needed, or a good base from which you'll build BIG stuff and not suffer too much tax if/when you screw up the roll.

p.

[Sydney Freedberg]

It is true that heavy-duty military hardware, e.g. vehicles, is painfully expensive to acquire in play -- e.g. that Hammer Cruiser, but also even an armored grav vehicle. I've been trying to think up ways to boost a character's chances of making a crucial Resources roll:

+1 to 2 dice from appropriate Wises, e.g. Anvil-wise, Hammer-wise (p. 363)
-1 to Obstacle from Bargaining (whee....) (p. 368)
+1 to 10 dice from big honkin' piles of cash, e.g. inheritance, looting, and piracy, if the GM lets you have them (p. 370)
+1 to 5 dice (realistically) from other loans' (p. 371)
-1 to 4 dice from Obstacle from splitting off that part of the test into a Fabrication roll (p. 395-396).

and above all, Artha:
+1-3 dice (realistically) from from spending 1 Fate to make sixes open-ended (p. 339)
+1-3 dice from spending 1 Persona per die (expensive!) (p. 339)
+doubling your Resources exponent, OR rerolling all failures, from 1 Deeds point, if you have one to spare (p. 340)

All these in judicious combination make it possible for wealthy characters -- e.g. Anvil Lords with Resources in the 10+ range -- to buy military vehicles.

Now, there must be other workarounds I'm missing. Suggestions?

[Paul B]

+1d for a linked test
+1d for naming the vessel

I believe you can only use one Wise on any given test, but you could use a non-Wise to get the other +1d (bureaucracy, administration, logistics -- any one of which could have been one of those linked tests?).

p.

[rogar308]

Yeah 'funds'. You can keep increasing a fund size, a chunk at a time, until it reaches whatever size you need it to. The downside is that it takes time. The phase or even game could be over before you have any real chance of purchasing that expensive item. This tactic would work extremely well in a campaign setting where the characters continue to play after the 1st planet is 'saved'.

Personally, I think you should just be able to pick an item you want that fits in with your lifepaths. For every 2 lifepaths (round down) you get to pick an item. You can only pick 1 item from a category (vehicles, armor, weapons, equipment, etc) except weapons and where you can choose as many picks as you like from the picks you are allotted.

The other idea would be a seperate pool of RP's you would receive from lifepaths. Either double the RP's the character gets and use 1/2 for burning tech, or get 1 RP for each lifepath. These RP's are for character burning tech only and are lost if not used once play begins.
==

And cruiser? Where's destroyers, battleships, dreadnaughts, etc? It seems paultry for a forged lord to be seen flying around in a mere cruiser. The ship granularity could be greater but that's a topic for another post.

###

[Countercheck]

Yes, you can't easily buy one in play, but you can 'aquire' several of them in the 50 odd years before you play. The game is taking place over at most a timespan of a few years... you have DECADES before that to build up your fleet. And if you REALLY want a fleet, buy the Hammer Lord trait... it gives you a fleet without having to spend a single rp.

And if you want a battleship, burn it =)

[Sydney Freedberg]

And if you REALLY want a fleet, buy the Hammer Lord trait... it gives you a fleet without having to spend a single rp.

Does it, though? The Hammer Lord (p. 261) and Anvil Lord (p. 249) traits give you automatic access to flunkies, plus a bonus to Circles rolls for getting specialists -- specifically they automatically have their relevant skill at a certain exponent, without you having to beat the normal obstacles for Circling up someone with that skill (see table, p. 348).

But it's not clear whether the technology of your force is Color tech or hard tech. Pg. 350 says only


Contacts generated via Circles come with the technology appropriate to their station and index. The GM assigns the technology as he sees fit. Contacts will not freely give their tech to player characters.

I presume all this taken together means that
(a) if you're a Hammer Lord who plowed 3D into your affiliation with your fleet, so that you have "system patrol craft and hammer cruisers with well-trained crew with exponent 5 abilities" (p. 261),
(b) you can make a Circles roll for a Lord-Pilot at Ob 3 (uncommon occupation, +2 Ob; lower rank, +1 Ob; exponent 5 skill, free from Hammer Lord trait) and
(c) have the Lord-Pilot show up with "appropriate equipment" in the form of a freakin' Hammer Cruiser.

But I'd like someone more knowledgeable than me to confirm that.

[rogar308]

Mike, I understand and you make good point(s) but to counter again. If you had the resources to buy the hammer cruisers during your lifepaths, then one could argue that if you didn't spend those resources to date, you should be able to use those resources after the fact equally as well. Meaning, if you had the resources to buy 3 hammer cruisers before, and decided not to spend the resources but save them, then you should still have the resources to buy 3 hammer cruisers.
===

As far as the hammer trait goes..I agree with Sydney..it's limited in scope and it's seem to be a little vague on exact ship details but perhaps that may be on purpose.

I think some, perhaps many, of us desire details because we are used to games where you have specifics so you know if you have 3 hammer cruisers and the other guy has 2, you are most likely going to win the fleet engagement. With BE it seems that fleet stuff tends to be more oriented to color and small engagements since there isn't any fleet engagement rules.

What a great discussion by the way. Many good thoughts posted.

[Paul B]

My impression of setting the game up this way, as opposed to a more "intuitive" or "simulative" way is to force a choice into character creation: Do I spend a tiny number of points before the game and buy tech I may not be able to use (but I'm telegraphing I want to use!), or do I keep a BIG pool of points and deal with burning up valuable scene time in-game buying tech that's customized to my actual needs?

It's counterintuitive if you're looking at RPs as cash money. It's perfect if you're looking at RPs as opportunity assets.

p.

[Paul B]

(a) if you're a Hammer Lord who plowed 3D into your affiliation with your fleet, so that you have "system patrol craft and hammer cruisers with well-trained crew with exponent 5 abilities" (p. 261),
(b) you can make a Circles roll for a Lord-Pilot at Ob 3 (uncommon occupation, +2 Ob; lower rank, +1 Ob; exponent 5 skill, free from Hammer Lord trait) and
(c) have the Lord-Pilot show up with "appropriate equipment" in the form of a freakin' Hammer Cruiser.

But I'd like someone more knowledgeable than me to confirm that.

Certainly not more knowledgeable, but a thought on this: How useful is a Hammer Cruiser? I mean really useful. It's big and impressive, but unless you've set up a fleet action scene then that Cruiser (or Dreadnaught or Destroyer or Death Star) is just color. Heck, it's probably a whole setting at that point. There's enormous potential packed into that Hammer Cruiser, but then again there's enormous potential in a pistol pressed against the temple of a Figure of Note.

IMO a Hammer Cruiser is perfectly appropriate hard tech for a Lord-Pilot. What's your Ob to summon him up (I'd call a Lord-Pilot "rare" or "unique" personally)? And how many scenes is he really gonna be able to rock out?

p.

[Countercheck]

It's an oportunity cost issue. You had the oportunity over the course of your life to pick up a small squadron of ships, but instead you invested it in a variety of non-liquid assets. Resource points don't represent cash, they represent mansions, investments, factories, favours... By perminantly reducing your resource stat in order to get a single ship, you are increasing the difficulty of every subsequent roll in the game.

And Paul is entirely right. The game isn't about the tools, the game is about the characters. If it's important to your character to personally own a warship capable of demolishing planets... spend two RPs and you've got it. If it is important to your character to own a really nifty canteen that secretes booze laced with truth serum, pay two RPs to get it. Otherwise, use circles and find someone who made that RP sacrifice to help you for a bit.

And in BE, numbers aren't really important because, as i stated above, the game's about the characters, not the armies. Armies and fleets are tools your characters use. Firefight is more than capable of doing abstracted fleet battles, because is it important to know exactly how many ships were destroyed, what fleet had the higher accelleration, or even what exactly happened, or is it more important to know that after some ineffectual surpressive fire on both sides, your character's brilliant flanking manouver smashed the enemy fleet and allowed your characters to punch through to the space station where the Vaylen were about to hull your dog?

At least that's my take =)

[stormsweeper]

Mike, I understand and you make good point(s) but to counter again. If you had the resources to buy the hammer cruisers during your lifepaths, then one could argue that if you didn't spend those resources to date, you should be able to use those resources after the fact equally as well. Meaning, if you had the resources to buy 3 hammer cruisers before, and decided not to spend the resources but save them, then you should still have the resources to buy 3 hammer cruisers.

One could argue, but in this case the game is very explicit on the matter. Think of it as a character creation discount, if you must. And again you're conflating the RPs from your lifepaths with being the same as your Resources ability. It's not, and trying to hinge any kind of argument on them being the same will get you nowhere.

[rogar308]

If the character burned RP's are completely different then I would make them different like calling them BRP's or something because it's sure is confusing at times when you read all the many new rules for the first time.

Chuckles...well I certainly understand the 'opportunity' angle as well. Which brings me to another point. If I did buy multiple hammer cruiser's and decided to sell 1, would I receive the 20 resource points for it? Whether it be in the form or cash, fund, or resource it would be significant. In which case, your whole argument of opportunity is dismissed because you can convert from one to the other & vice versa. (resources/opportunity to hard tech & hard tech to resources/opportunity).

I must be the only nutcake who finds this whole resource issue extremely odd but thanks for humoring me anyway. :)

[Sydney Freedberg]

How useful is a Hammer Cruiser?...There's enormous potential packed into that Hammer Cruiser, but then again there's enormous potential in a pistol pressed against the temple of a Figure of Note.


...Paul is entirely right. The game isn't about the tools, the game is about the characters. If it's important to your character to personally own a warship capable of demolishing planets... spend two RPs and you've got it. If it is important to your character to own a really nifty canteen that secretes booze laced with truth serum, pay two RPs to get it.

That sound you hear is me clapping. Yes, beautifully put. The rules aren't particularly interested in how much a starfleet or a firearm or a nifty pair of cufflinks should cost in a realistic future economy (for that, read later editions of Traveller, if you can make head or tail of them). The rules are interested in how useful they are to what your character is doing.

Maybe the Hammer Cruiser and its four artillery-scale fusor batteries is absolutely the tool you need to get what you want: "Hand over the secret plans or we'll blow you out of space!"

Or maybe the cruiser is useless because you're two feet away from your adversary, and it's that pistol's human scale damage you need: "Hand over the secret plans or I blow your head off!"

Or maybe it's the cufflinks, with their +2D to Persuasion: "What, these? My grandfather the late Archduke had these made for me when I graduated ... Oh yes, those are real emeralds... Yes, it is rather nice worksmanip, isn't it?... Oh, no, you couldn't just buy some, the jeweller has worked for my family for decades...Well, he's terrribly busy, you know... Oh, the secret plans? Why, thank you. You're too kind. You know, I'm sure that jeweller could work you in, now that I think about it.... No, no, no trouble at all. More tea?"

[stormsweeper]

If the character burned RP's are completely different then I would make them different like calling them BRP's or something because it's sure is confusing at times when you read all the many new rules for the first time.

No argument from me there, although you'd just end up with something like "Wealth Points" instead. For now, let's go with that. With your WPs, you can buy stuff (fortresses, devices, weapons, armor, vehicles), or you can build up your Resources ability, one die at a time. Now stuff you'll have whenever you need it, but you'll only have that stuff. With Resources, you can get new stuff as needed, but maybe not as nice stuff as you could get if you took stuff to start with. But it's a lot more flexible, since you can get what you need when you need it, and probably even lots more stuff overall.


If I did buy multiple hammer cruiser's and decided to sell 1, would I receive the 20 resource points for it? Whether it be in the form or cash, fund, or resource it would be significant. In which case, your whole argument of opportunity is dismissed because you can convert from one to the other & vice versa. (resources/opportunity to hard tech & hard tech to resources/opportunity).

Well, the easiest way would be to "trade" it for a fund or a loan. But why would you sell your cruiser? ;)


I must be the only nutcake who finds this whole resource issue extremely odd but thanks for humoring me anyway. :)

No, it gives plenty of people pause, especially when coin-counting is far and away the norm for the genre.

[Paul B]

If the character burned RP's are completely different then I would make them different like calling them BRP's or something because it's sure is confusing at times when you read all the many new rules for the first time.

Chuckles...well I certainly understand the 'opportunity' angle as well. Which brings me to another point. If I did buy multiple hammer cruiser's and decided to sell 1, would I receive the 20 resource points for it? Whether it be in the form or cash, fund, or resource it would be significant. In which case, your whole argument of opportunity is dismissed because you can convert from one to the other & vice versa. (resources/opportunity to hard tech & hard tech to resources/opportunity).

I must be the only nutcake who finds this whole resource issue extremely odd but thanks for humoring me anyway. :)

Well...good luck finding a buyer. FOR SALE: One pre-loved Hammer Cruiser. All highway miles. Dealer maintained. Upgraded stereo, leather interior, minor cosmetic damage to rear quarter-panel. $200 billion OBO.

And re. confusing rules that mess with your understanding of how RPGs are "supposed" to work, amen to that! Agreed completely and unconditionally.

p.

[rogar308]

Yeah Paul...I know plenty of 'new' characters looking for them! :P

All I know is that I'm going to buy items like hammer cruisers and high cost vehicles and convert them back into resources which will give me the correct resources that my character should have when beginning play (IMO). Sure, the example I gave is a hammer cruiser but the same concept works just fine for lesser vehicles as well.

Merry Christmas everyone while I got a few minutes left!