I GM a Bunch of Chickens ... bwaack bwaack!

[Derelict]

I've got a group I've been gaming with, and have been the primary GM of, for the past twelve years. We're jaded, tired of playing the same game / characters over and over, and looking for a change. That said, I just cannot seem to get the folks to try anything that resembles a cooperative authoring game system.

I'll address the stickied questions point by point, and hopefully not miss anything :)


• Number of players in your game.
There are currently five of us. There have been as few as four, and as many as seven at different times.

•*How long you've been playing this particular game.
We have played a lot of different RPG systems. So many that my flock is tiring of buying books, only to play the system and grow bored with it within a few months. Our current D&D 3.5 campaign is about 3 months old.

• How long you've been playing with these players.
12 years.

• Whether you socialize with these players outside the game.
All the time.

• Did you do a group campaign creation session or is this a standard "GM comes up with the plot" game?
It has always been "GM comes up with the plot and does all the work" for us.

•*Did you do a character burning session?
I haven't been able to convince them to play yet.

• Are the characters you're using native to BW or are the conversions?
It will be a vanilla BW campaign.

•*What do you identify as the main problem you're having in your game?
Convincing them to try the system.

I honestly can't figure out how to hook them at this point. The main concerns seem to be:

1) Buying yet another game system.
2) Players will actually have to do some work / think about the campaign setup.
3) Collaborative authoring seems to be linked to LARPing in their minds. They've let it be known over the years that they're 100% not interested in LARP. Whenever I mention collaboration, they manage to bring LARPs up / mock them somewhere in there.
4) Roleplaying has taken quite a downturn with us. Several of the players seem to be perfectly content to roll dice / kill stuff / loot / advance, and roleplay only the smallest amount.

I have downloaded the Fires Over Omac example, and looked it over. I also found the example of play that someone posted (in either the forums or the wiki, I forget which), which was also very helpful, thanks!

So, now that I've rambled ... on to my questions! :)

1) How do I hook a bunch of jaded, hack-n-slash gamers into something different?
2) Are the free rules examples / sections / Omac pdf from the downloads section enough to get them playing? I have already purchased the book and received the free pdf file. If I am the only one with the rules, and they wish to do something in-depth (like a DoW or firefight), am I going to be able to talk them through this, or will it be an exercise in frustration?
3) I've read several posts on the boards about the indirect tie-ins from scenes --> maneuvers. May I copy / paraphrase these for their use from the forums? I want to present them with a cogent reply, and not end up tripping over my own terminology / lack of familiarity with the rules.

Thanks in advance for your time!

Your new noob,
D

[Kublai]

Sorry, are you talking about playing Burning Wheel or Burning Empires? I got a little confused because you said you are going to create a vanilla BW game but then you talk about BE's Burning Omac.

That said, why not run The Sword for the group and test out the systems before you commit to a long campaign?

[sanjwise]

Dear Derelict,

I hear you man...and think that these suggestions might help.

Despite the mention of both BE and BW, I'm pretty sure that your group would be happier playing BW for now instead of BE. Its less of a transition.

You don't have to worry all that much about Shared Authorship and Collaborative creation in BW...its just happens during play.

You mentioned that you have an existing campaign world...Why not use that as you base?

Pick a conflict that you and the group would want to play....

1. We're Rangers of the Crystalmists and we see signs that some major Orc warbands are gathering at Stone of Blood peak.
2. Or, rogue thieves run into the powerful theives guild of Ergandor.

whatever stories you guys can think of within the existing game where too much fudging will not have to be done (most BW games suit a low magic setting) is fine.

Then burn the characters. I always find character burning is the best way to kick off player creativity. The fact that you can create your own NPCs, affiliation to certain groups, etc. help the task immensely.

Even the lifepath system itself drives a player to think about the character as an organic creation with a real backstory rather than just a simple accumulation of pluses and minuses.

Then when the dudes start thinking about Beliefs (basically PC goals) - BAM! - you have a game. Done.

The rules are fairly straight forward and easy to understand. I would suggest starting out with less of a martial campaign and slanting things more towards social interplay etc. It would mean less frustration with the rules and more actual play.

I recently introduced BW to a bunch of my old skool D&d buddies and it was a huge success. We started very slow, and added rules where necessary and focused on keeping the story going.

We did a Slave Revolt type scenario and it was awesome...so tight, tense, and exciting, but without tediously long FIGHTs etc. perfect for a newbie game.

And ask your players to voice their misgiving on the forum...I'm sure we can be of assistance.

Sanj

[Derelict]

Heh, Derelict bad. Derelict not explain so good. Derelict smash!

:)

I meant BE, as the campaign world spoke to me, we're tired of fantasy, and I bought it already. :) I may indeed investigate Burning Wheel later (sorry for the typo in my previous post), but for now we're trying to get far away from D&D 3.5.

We don't have a campaign world. We used to, but folks got bored with it, and we're all 40+ family and career types now, with little time to dedicate to making a new world each time the jaded crew "gets tired" of what the GM has come up with. We've been running pre-made modules / settings with little to no prep. That's why the collaborative creation aspect of the game was so apealing to me.

I'd like to get them back in RPGing, and less into hack and slash (since I prefer less rolling / arguing about the rules and more talking). It's the collaborative label that makes them very leery of trying it. Is there a better way (you eloquent individuals who are reading this) of explaining it to folks?

I'd like to run the demo scenario for BE. My questions centered around if it was feasible to spend an evening doing the Omec example, with players who didn't have a copy of the rules. Some of these folks are so tired of what we've been doing that they won't spend 10 minutes between our current sessions to update their character sheets for their new levels :) We've tried other game systems recently, and they just will not read the rules if they're not 100% engaged by the genre / story.

I read through some of the examples of play on this site, and they're great! However, they assume you're familiar with some aspects of the system (i.e. they gloss over boring dross in many cases: like how the rolls were generated, how the interstitials and other types of scenes were decided upon, etc). That's why I was looking for some forum-based example that had actual play, so I could pick it apart and see the things that make it tick, step by step, from an omniscient, sitting-at-the-table point of view.

Thanks for the helpful comments so far, folks! Most of their resistance is buying a set of rules they may decide they don't like / will only use for a month (we've done that ... a lot). I need to run a tight example campaign, with a pretty-near flawless understanding of the mechanics, and a good amount of organization to have a snowball's chance in Hell of overcoming their current mentality. I think it will be worth it, and would really love to play what looks like an amazing set of game mechanics, which is why I'm persevering.

D

[ghashsnaga]

Has your group every done a shared narrative session?

BE might be a big shock to them. You could introduce them to BW using either Under a Serpant Sun or Burning Sands available in the download section. That would give you post-apocalyptic or sci-fi settings.

Ara

[Glendower]

Here's what worked for me. You need one person, just one, that's sold on the game. One person against four other jaded roleplayers will result in more jaded "oh yeah, sure, whatever".

With that one other person, that wingman, the rest of the group will think "hey wait... both of them are into this? It's not just him that's all nuts for this game? Maybe I should check it out". One person with a dream is a nut. A group of people (even just two!) with a dream is a movement.

Two people build energy between one another. I had my brother sold on the game, even enthusiastic, and when I was selling the game to the group it was him speaking up and giving me reassuring looks that allowed for some of the best gaming I've every had. I had long conversations with him on the game, and on gaming theory (he's an avid reader on the Forge (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php)forums as well as this one) and that's invigorating stuff, it gives both people hope, drive, and enthuiasm.

If you get one person hooked in, you'll get a good chance at convincing the rest.

Now, to move on, I played in an Omac setting, it is written up here (http://burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3453). We had two books, which was handy as hell, but honestly we could have gotten by with just one. Much of what you need is sitting on the character sheets.

Now with the more complicated stuff like Duel of Wits and Firefight, you need to think in stages. Download the sheets online here (http://www.burningempires.com/wiki/index.php?title=Image:Be_dowsheet_r3.pdf) and here (http://www.burningempires.com/wiki/index.php?title=Image:Firefight_sheet_r2.pdf), as they have most of the needed info printed right on them. I laminated them and used a dry erase marker (the china pencils didn't clean off so great) to limit the killing of trees.

Now, remember the wingman? He's going to help you try out the Duel of Wits and Firefight. Because all you need to try them out is two people, right? I think you should do about 2 Duel of Wits and 2 firefights. Use the Omac characters, doesn't matter really who, and make up some intents for them to win. And that way, you both learn. And that way, you both can walk the others through it.

And pretty much everything this forum is designed for people to freely use. I can't see how anyone could stop you from printing out stuff and using it. I've done it tons of times. Remember the old adage. So long as you add a reference, it's not plagurism, it's research! Just say "This is from Jon. He's really awesome". *chuckle*

Comparing stuff like shared Authorship and Collaboration to LARP is a little absurd. LARP is just roleplaying while walking around. I've LARPED for about six years and the only thing different is the wear and tear to shoes.

Collaboration is a decision made by the group to allow everyone to decide what details get added to the shared imaginary world they participate in, instead of just the GM deciding what gets added. The Burning Wheel system (that Burning Empires uses) has some neat rules to keep this collaboration fairly democratic, instead of Steve Silvertongue ruling the roost.

There's a thread here (http://burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3616) I participated in where we talked about how to implement shared Authorship to a gaming group, it may be helpful.

Now, ultimately, if these people cross their arms and refuse to participate in the game, it ain't gonna happen. Remember that if you can't get them at least try it with an open mind and a good attitude, take your wingman and find new players (http://burningwheel.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=13), or do some awesome one on one games. One on one is not only possible (http://burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3031), it's awesome (http://burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3246). I know that it's Burning Wheel I'm linking, but Burning Empires is just as possible with a few alterations, as noted here (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=21805.0).

[JamesDJIII]

Of course, your other alternative is to just step aside and seek some new people to play with. Yeah, I know you've gamed with these people for a long time. Yeah, I know, you're all buddies. It's ok - you'll still be their buddy afterwards and you can still game with them, too. Just look outside that set, or invite everone with the expectation that only a few (who are interested) will show up to another game.

That's something I'm working on now. My "old" group, who I dearly love but just can't seem to get them to play and enjoy certain games as a unit, is just that - my old group. I still play other games with them, but just not some games. They like to buy gargantuan hardcovered books of the latest version of the most advertised games they can find. It's more attractive to them if the covers are glossy. Bonus points for heft. Mega-ultra bonus points for an endless stream of "support" material. You see what I'm saying?

It wasn't until of the Oldsters saw a hippie game like Dogs in the Vineyard being *played* that the light went on. Suddenly he HAD TO PLAY THAT GAME. In 2 years, nothing I did or said made this guy budge. But an actual live demo made him burn badly for it.

Maybe you should get or sit in on a rockin', crazed weasel BW demo run by Luke at a local con, and perhaps your hesitant, jaded amigos will also get some of that "fire" in their eyes? It's always worth a try.

Best of luck!

[JamesDJIII]

Hey, I'm a Woodcutter now!

[luke]

WTF is "shared authorship"?! What the hell is this "collaborative" hippy bullshit? I build a competitive game designed for intense and brutal RPG play, and you're all talking about it like it's a drum circle! W T F?!

;)
-L

[Derelict]

Glendower ... perfect, thanks! We've been playing as a group so long that I hadn't even considered culling one person out of the herd. Divide and conquer! Thanks much for the direct links, as well! I'll poke through them tonight (I'm in Texas with family, and about to go do the tourist thing).

James ... I've thought about that, as well. I was considering running a PbP instead, and doing whatever the group wanted on Monday nights. We do take time out of RPG-land once in a while to play other entertaining games (Unexploded Cow, Munchkin, Devil Bunnies and the Quest for the Magic Carrot, Robo Rally). I'm going to try to get them involved, as I'm a bit tired of the massive, rules-heavy, roll-to-take-a-step-now-roll-to-aim-your-gun gaming systems. I used to hit the ComicCon in San Diego every year, but haven't gone in quite some time.

Abzu ... clever! Thanks, that angle might work :)

I'll let you folks know how it turns out ... I'll probably be running the introduction in late January.

D

[Dwight]

WTF is "shared authorship"?! What the hell is this "collaborative" hippy bullshit? I build a competitive game designed for intense and brutal RPG play, and you're all talking about it like it's a drum circle! W T F?!

;)
-L
No kidding. :P But I have to wonder, with quotes like these....


It wasn't until of the Oldsters saw a hippie game like Dogs in the Vineyard being *played* that the light went on. Suddenly he HAD TO PLAY THAT GAME. In 2 years, nothing I did or said made this guy budge. But an actual live demo made him burn badly for it.

Why the hell isn't there a video link from the Burning Wheel front page to an actual game being played? So people know you still roll dice and stuff while you sit around the firepit in your loincloth banging on the bongos.

Have you tried making a film of it? How does it come across? I mean a fairly good production quality video, like that one that had you getting your ass kicked in WH. ;)

Abzu ... clever! Thanks, that angle might work
I'm not sure you even want to sell the game as an "RPG". Sure it is, but if they go in thinking "RPG" too hard then it is quite possible that things like the scene budget is going to blow--their--mind. At least that's how I'm pitching BE myself, as a "game". And I'm going to try work it into a wargame slot first. Because, at least in my estimation from reading the rules, it is a blurring between wargaming and RPGs. So I'm just speculating here.

P.S. Pitching it like that certainly would help clear up the misconception that it's LARPing.

[Paul B]

WTF is "shared authorship"?! What the hell is this "collaborative" hippy bullshit? I build a competitive game designed for intense and brutal RPG play, and you're all talking about it like it's a drum circle! W T F?!

;)
-L

Are you really serious? Or winky-serious? Because I have a different answer for both.

p.

[Dwight]

I see phrases like (http://www.buzzwhack.com/) that and I cringe. Mostly because I'm not sure what they are talking about, and even question whether the speaker knows. It certainly isn't an effective way to communicate with 'outside' people.

[Glendower]

Glendower ... perfect, thanks! We've been playing as a group so long that I hadn't even considered culling one person out of the herd. Divide and conquer! Thanks much for the direct links, as well! I'll poke through them tonight (I'm in Texas with family, and about to go do the tourist thing).


I'm a link machine! Looking forward to hearing how things go on your end. Good luck, and don't forget your wingman!

[DaGreatJL]

WTF is "shared authorship"?! What the hell is this "collaborative" hippy bullshit? I build a competitive game designed for intense and brutal RPG play, and you're all talking about it like it's a drum circle! W T F?!


Like you have room to talk about hippy bullshit, mister I-don't-eat-dead-animals-even-though-they-are-delicious.

-Signed, the meat-eating, tequila-drinking, California-living long hair

[Fourth Horseman]

WTF is "shared authorship"?! What the hell is this "collaborative" hippy bullshit? I build a competitive game designed for intense and brutal RPG play, and you're all talking about it like it's a drum circle! W T F?!

;)
-L

I warned you. I warned you it would end like this. Now go sniff Dro's crotch and cry around the campfire. I'll be sure to get you a new copy of Iron John, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_John:_A_Book_About_Men, for your birthday. I know Thor stole your old copy.

[Thor]

I warned you. I warned you it would end like this. Now go sniff Dro's crotch and cry around the campfire. I'll be sure to get you a new copy of Iron John, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_John:_A_Book_About_Men, for your birthday. I know Thor stole your old copy.

Who let you out of your crate? Get back in there!