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DavidLawson
01-16-2007, 09:59 AM
Hey folks.

First off I'll be sure I cover the points set out in Luke's sticky up at the top.

I'm trying to run a BWR game based in a Norse setting. The game's called Clan Bok's Folly, and there's the beginning of a wiki for it ( I seem to have become addicted to the Wiki over the last week or so ). The Game has 4 players, in addition to myself. We are all newcomers to the system after a fashion. Our most experienced player, Sanjeev (Sanjwise on the forums) has played in one game, and run one game. I myself have just played in one game, and the three other members of the circle are entirely fresh, in terms of BW.

I've roleplayed with each of these players in different settings, and they are all experienced roleplayers. They're all friends of mine outside of the game, but I am really the common element in this troupe. After my experience in Sanjeev's Burning Shackles, I am placing a huge emphasis on character burning. So far I've sat down, one on one, with two of the players for periods of 5 or 6 hours each, really hammering into them the concept of beliefs and how they really are the center of your character's being. The results thus far have impressed me, as the two I've done this with had never played BW before.

Here come the problems. One such problems is that the general setting and plot (in very hazy terms) are those I laid down without discussing it with the players. I was working through the ancestral history of a character I have just started playing in another game, and came upon a pivotal crossroads in the clan's history, and decided that it would make a great game. So here I am. One of the players, Nick, a good friend for well over 20 years now (we played novice hockey together!), is a bit of a throwback in terms of roleplaying. When we were younger, we played AD&D. Very tactical, very hack&slash. Very braindead sit back and let the GM spoonfeed you. All of the other members of our group went on to play other, more 'mature' ROLEplaying games, as opposed to ROLLplaying games. Nick, however put down P&P gaming at the age of 16 years, and has hardly tasted anything outside of the AD&D realm of flavours. I am confident of my other players (JF, and James) to make the transition to BW seemlessly. They have played many systems and 'get' what roleplaying is.

So, to get to my real concern, I am worried about Nick's ability to step into a more demanding game such as BW. He'll be expected to do far more than he ever was in AD&D, and killing the monster by rolling a good number is no longer the point of play. I am trying to come up with cool and interesting ways to help him make the transition and start off on the right foot with BW. He is stubborn in a sense. If he decides he doesn't like the game, very little will shake the foundation of that preconception. I need to make sure that he sees the good side of the game before he sees something he doesn't like.

The greatest tool, from my limited knowledge of the game, to really get someone involved in the story, is their character's beliefs. We spent some hours last night working on beliefs, but we were inputing them directly into the wiki (I'm totally addicted to the wiki!), and the wiki puked when we tried to save the changes. We lost some of the flowery words, but the concepts were firmly lodged into our brains. Here is what we came up with:

1) Traditions are in place for a reason, and the reason is lost on our clan. I will erect a monument in the honour of our ancestors. This monument will tell the tale of Clan Bok. Disrespect unto our elders is unseemly and running rampant of late. The next fool to make a mockery of an elder will find himself strung up before the clan.
2) Every father's wish is for his sons to surpass him. I will see my son accepted as a thegn before I die. The first step in learning to be a thegn is to learn how to hold a sword. I must find both sword and trainer for my son Saku.
3) Odin has cursed me with the second sight. I must learn to control it before I am driven mad, and out of the clan. I must seek out a spirit-talker willing to teach me of this, but none of Clan Bok may learn of my plight.

So, can anybody come up with concepts and ideas they have perhaps used themselves to gently introduce a rough-around-the-edges rollplayer to BW? Perhaps it is in further refining the beliefs, perhaps it is something solely within the domain of the storyteller. Any suggestions?

gooderguy
01-16-2007, 10:40 AM
in my experience, 'new' roleplayers get BW better than 'experienced' roleplayers. kids who haven't played since college or highschool, but read a lot of fantasy or like fantasy movies, etc. often those people stopped playing because they weren't satisfied with the fun/efficiency ratio of the game.

one thing about beliefs to realize (which in my opinion makes them so awesome), is that the beliefs are not 100% about the character... beliefs are about what the player wants to explore. that's why new roleplayers get it more, because they don't have those hangups. just ask Nick, what about this setting are you interested in?

every time Nick does something in game, 'i wan't to attack the spirit talker's familiar' (or whatever it is) remind him to look over his beliefs. he might take to them naturally, as i've often seen happen.

his beliefs are pretty on the mark but here are my suggestions for refining those beliefs a bit. efficiency of wording is important. so is small steps and specific goals (that's how you earn artha and change your beleifs)

B1 - We owe everything to our ancestors and I will re-install traditional values to the members of our clan by stringing up those who make a mockery of our beliefs. (you can earn crazy artha playing this one up, a persona point every time you string someone up...)
B2 - My son must surpass me and become a thegn so I must find someone teach my son Saku how to wield a sword. (earn the artha finding the teacher, then change the belief to 'finding the sword,' then to 'raise my son to thegn' etc. small steps toward the final ideal of 'my son to surpass me')
B3 -I must learn to control my second sight by finding a spirit-talker to teach me before Clan Bok learns of my plight. (this one will be great to play out, earning tons of fate)

so now, as a GM, your job is to attack each belief. that is how you keep nick interested.
B1 - mock the clan beliefs...
B2 - have kids beat saku up, have him ridiculed... maybe saku doesn't want to be a thegn...
B3 - make a PC in Clan Bok who suspects the character of having second sight and actively tries to expose the character

in my opinion, as a GM, you should provide setting color for the players, but the PCs should be there solely to oppose their beliefs. no PC should be in place for your own story. make it about them (with your own twist) and tie them together somehow. push push push and it should be a blast with cool beliefs like those

DavidLawson
01-16-2007, 11:00 AM
I like a lot of your suggestions. Economy of words can be pretty valuable when you are trying to sum up a lifelong ambition inside a sentence or three. I really felt a lot of enthusiasm from Nick while we were burning up Vorn Pallsson last night, and this gives me hope. However I feel like certain motivations and perceptions described in his beliefs are absent from the one-sentence versions that you offered.

For instance, Vorn feels that in order to reinstate traditional values in the clan, ultimately it will require an enduring monument for the future generations to look upon and be reminded of this. Stringing up a disrespectful snot-nose punk is meant to directly link into bringing awareness of this problem to the clan hall, since doing something like that is bound to find itsway into a dispute over which the chieftain will preside. By shortening it to just one sentence, something important is lost.


B2 you just flat out surpassed us. Much more elegantly worded, with the concept fully presented. Definitely gonna go with your suggested belief.

The third belief lacks it's core concept. Vorn feels that he is cursed by the Aesir. Odin has struck him down with this affliction for one reason or another? Perhaps he is trying to grant Vorn wisdom, in a way similar to his own blinding? I should mention that folks with the second sight in this setting go mad, and generally choose to blind themselves before that point, so that they only see one world at a time. Usually by then they are living in an alternate world anywys, and considered insane. I'll just throw up something along the lines of 'Odin has cursed me.' prior to the suggested belief.

luke
01-16-2007, 12:01 PM
Dave,
You're straying from the path of light onto the path of darkness. You've got to stop with the individual discussions and decisions. You MUST get the group together and brainstorm. You must tell the group as a whole the situation you have in mind and let them buy into it and modify it to accomodate their characters.

THEN you burn. Then you decide on a kicker. THEN you make Beliefs.

-L

Thor
01-16-2007, 12:04 PM
Dave,
You're straying from the path of light onto the path of darkness. You've got to stop with the individual discussions and decisions. You MUST get the group together and brainstorm. You must tell the group as a whole the situation you have in mind and let them buy into it and modify it to accomodate their characters.

THEN you burn. Then you decide on a kicker. THEN you make Beliefs.

Agreed. You guys have to work as a group if you're going to get an effect similar to what you had with Burning Shackles.

gooderguy
01-16-2007, 12:26 PM
these guys are right (obviously) but i thought you had already done most of that... maybe i'm misunderstanding. i thought it was obvious the major discussion should be done as a group and you are just at the point of refining beliefs. having everyone on the same page with each other's beliefs is key. everyone will be encouraging each other and having that encouragement can go a long way

as for my suggested beliefs... yes, i dropped a few words and may have not included the 'core concept' as you/nick/the group decided it should be, but if you look at them again, the core concept might not be 'worded' but it's not mutually exclusive. he can tottally play the madness and the maybe after 'stringing up' some punks, change his belief to 'build a monument.' as luke and thor pointed out, the choice of words should revolve around the kicker.

a good kicker would be, 'disrespectful punks desecrated .....', boom, gets everyone on page for the conflict... and falls right into 'i'm gonna string 'em up by their balls' belief...

DavidLawson
01-16-2007, 02:50 PM
Hmmm.

Just spoke with Sanj, and I think he put it into perspective. I understand exactly what you are saying, guys. And I think with an experienced BW group that would be the way to go. I definitely plan on group world burning, from the ground up, for the next campaign.

It's always harsh to see put down something you have spent considerable time making. But, that's how we learn, no?

I felt that having something with a hook already in it, to present to the players was a crucial part of starting every campaign. For first time players, I think I might have a hard time evoking the necessary enthusiasm to receive a time commitment from them, if I hadn't something cool and involving to pitch them. In the last few minutes, I've revisited that belief. I still feel it is important to present the players with that initial idea that gets the juices flowing. I made a mistake in dictating the kickers, though. I can see that now. A viking political game would have perhaps been an adequate starting point for the brainstorming.

Tonight all players but Sanj are meeting for more character burning. I wish Sanj had more time, and I bet he wishes that too! Trading emails, or using the phone just doesn't compare with face to face discussions. We'll see what we come up with in terms of scenario, although they seem somewhat invested in my unilaterally designed kicker.

DavidLawson
01-16-2007, 02:53 PM
Thor

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by referring to Burning Shackles. Maybe drawing a parallel out of my recent past will help me to really get at the core of this.

Thor
01-16-2007, 03:04 PM
Hey man, it's definitely not a matter of putting it down! What you've got seems really cool!

But here's the thing: the more you do as a group, the more everyone will be into what's going on in the game. Everyone will buy into the game and take a stake in the setting and its characters.

As the GM, it's great for you to guide the process. You can get everyone together and say exactly this: "Clan Bok is in dire straights. Per Sveriksson, the clan chieftain has fallen ill. But this is no normal sickness. He is fevered and delusional, talking and screaming at things that aren't there. Out of respect for the man's past, nobody has supplanted him as chief. His passing on is imminent, and they are waiting until then to make their claims for the throne. Per has no offspring to hand down the leadership of the clan to, and is in no condition to select and heir from amongst the healthy thegns.

"As if these problems weren't enough, the clan's ancestral spirits are turning their back on the living. All manner of mischevious spirit run about the clan lands, causing no end of trouble for the clan folk."


Once you've presented that, open it up! Who's got claims to the throne? Who else has stakes in those claims? What's up with the clan's enemies? What about the clan's allies? Do they have a stake in one person's claims or the other?


Are there any clan rules for dealing with a situation like this?


And then ask them what interests them. What characters do they want to play? How do they tie together?


And then do your Beliefs together.


In general, if you make characters separately, you will spend the first session (sometimes the first several sessions) fumbling around trying to find a direction that interests everyone. Sometimes you won't find that direction at all. Sometimes the interests will be wildly divergent, based on different understandings of what the situation was.

luke
01-16-2007, 03:05 PM
I'm certain a face to face meeting will clear everything up. And just to be explicit, I'm not saying that you should discard ANY of your ideas for this campaign, Dave. I just want you to start from a place where all of the players are on board with those ideas. That requires them to be in on the creation of the game -- they need to know the characters/relationships in play and what the initial problem is. And they need to be able to build how they deal with that as a group so that they can all be pointing in the same general direction.

-L

DavidLawson
01-16-2007, 03:13 PM
Okay, I think I'm thumbed through the book of great wisdom to the page you guys are. I'll see about doing exactly what you suggested tonight, Thor. Initial character burns are largely done for a couple of people, and they will probably want to continue on with those characters and as few modifications to them as possible. But it would be awesome for the group to create the clan. I purposefully left the clan vaguely defined so that this would be possible to support relationships and characters. But far more than that is to support the shared authorship concept.

I remember some of the best times we had in Burning Shackles were in burning up the pirate ship, and setting up our world --- as a group. I was greedy and foolish not to share more of this with the players in Clan Bok's Folly. Until tonight.

I'll post up some more things come tomorrow with regards to our burning session. Thanks so much. I feel like I've earned artha, or something.

Thor
01-16-2007, 03:18 PM
Thor

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by referring to Burning Shackles. Maybe drawing a parallel out of my recent past will help me to really get at the core of this.

I mean that Burning Shackles didn't happen by accident. It took you and Sanj getting together and creating a situation and setting that you were both excited about and invested in.

From the very first session, you knew the setting fairly well, even if Sanj had some surprises in store for you. You knew which NPCs were important to you and why (even if the list would change and expand later). You cared about them already. Most importantly, you and Sanj were on the same page about what you both were interested in.

That stuff has to be shared with the entire group. It's not enough for these conversations to be held individually between the GM and each individual player. I'm not saying that it can't work, but it's pretty much a shot in the dark.

Thor
01-16-2007, 03:20 PM
I remember some of the best times we had in Burning Shackles were in burning up the pirate ship, and setting up our world --- as a group. I was greedy and foolish not to share more of this with the players in Clan Bok's Folly. Until tonight.

I'll post up some more things come tomorrow with regards to our burning session. Thanks so much. I feel like I've earned artha, or something.

Rock! I predict you guys will have an awesome time tonight!

DavidLawson
01-17-2007, 11:48 AM
Things didn't go quite as planned last night. Two out of three attendees canceled at the last minute, leaving me one on one with a player again! The Dark Side is trying to work me over on this one.

We mostly stayed the course though. Had a few pints and caught up on old times. Got some ideas rolling around about a character for him, but nothing firmed up. James would REALLY have benefitted from a full group brainstorming, and I can see that 100% clearly now.

We're gonna work something out next week. I'm sure I"ll have a slew more questions to ask by then.