Art of Sorcery

[luke]

I'm cooking behind the scenes here at HQ. This system represents a magic breakthrough for BWHQ's magical thinking. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to create spells for this type of Sorcery. What would you cast?

The obstacles are off and I need to see how I need to adjust them.

Art of Sorcery

The goal of this method of Sorcery is to strip out spells, like Practical Magic, but to add spectacular magical effects back into the mix.

In this form, we turn away from standard skill-based tests like Practical Magic and look to Circles for inspiration.

The Sorcerer gathers his art, skill and inspiration together and calls upon the powers that be to obey his will and aid him as he requires.

When casting a spell, the player must first think of its intended effect. What does he want the spell to do and how does he want it to affect his intended target?

Once he has described the spell and its intent, he adds together the appropriate obstacle modifiers for Effect, Breadth and Duration. Effect may be added multiple times.

The Sorcerer player tests his Sorcery skill plus his School of Magic if applicable against an obstacle. If successful, the spell has its intended effect. If failed, the GM may choose to apply a series of Consequences based on the margin of failure.

Effects
Obstacle Penalty
Apply obstacle penalty to the target. +1 Ob penalty is Ob 1. +2 Ob penalty is Ob 2. +3 Ob penalty is Ob 4.

Advantage Dice
Grant advantage dice to the target. 1D is Ob 1. 2D is Ob 2. 3D is Ob 3. Use this category to raise the Speed Multiplier, as well.

Knowledge
Count Sorcery as an Academic skill test of the caster's choosing. Obstacle is equal to skill test obstacle.

Sorcerous Weapon
Power of the attack is based on the Sorcerer's Will exponent. Burning Spear or Sword of Arcane Fury (as a spear, mace or sword), Ob 1. Furious Bolts of Eldritch (as bow), Ob 2. Executioner's Axe (as SQ axe), Ob 3. This effect conjures a weaponlike thingie for the sorcerer to wield in battle. Conjure the weapon and then fight with it as normal. To count the weapon as a Spirit Weapon, add +2 Ob .

Destroy with Sorcerous Fire and Arcane Magics
Big, eldritch and fiery effects, Ob 4. Damage as follows: Sorcerer's Will as base Power, +2 Power per extra success, VA 2, DoF as a bow.

Create from Nothing
As Resources obstacle?

Transform
Mundane, harmless creature (like a bird or a fish), Ob 2. Mundane, effective or threatening creature (like a wolf or a bear), Ob 4. Open to other suggestions.

Tweak
Cause another character to make a physical stat or martial or physical skill test of your choosing or a Steel or Health test. Stat, Ob 2. Skill or attribute, Ob 3. Make a versus test with the Sorcery skill (this is separate from the casting roll). This is used to shove, immobilize, knock down

Trait
Grant the target access to a trait from the Character Burner, Magic Burner or Monster Burner. Ob 1+ the trait point cost

Breadth
Self, one ability -- no modifier
Single target, one ability -- +1 Ob
Group, Handful, two abilities -- +3 Ob
Crowd, Copse, Cluster, three abilities -- +4 Ob
Village, Pond, four abilties -- +6 Ob
Town, Countryside, Castle, five abilities -- +7 Ob
City, Forest, six abilities -- + 8 Ob
Sky, Ocean -- +10 Ob


Duration of Spell
Effect may last beyond the duration of the spell if the effect of the spell changes the enviroment in some way. For example, you may conjure a scourging fire to burn a forest. After one scene, the fire is mysterious gone, but the forest remains burnt.
Instantaneous -- +1 Ob
Test (according to Let It Ride) -- No Modifier
Conflict (Range and Cover, Fight! or Duel of Wits) -- +1 Ob
Session -- +2 Ob
Adventure -- +3 Ob
Campaign -- +4 Ob

Casting Time
The casting time for these spells are actions equal to their obstacle. In most cases, this will not prove to be much of a hindrance. In Fight!, Range and Cover and Duel of Wits it may prove problematic.

Action costs are as normal for Fight! actions. A sorcerer may cast up to 20 actions of spell during one volley of RnC or DoW instead of performing one of the standard actions. Dangerous!

Schools of Magic
Sorcerers are trained at various schools and taught to favor one form of magic over another. Schools of Magic may be bought like Affiliations in Character Burning and may be rated from 1-3D. They represent an idiomatic magical expression that benefits the casting of certain spells. Only spells that fall within the idiom may gain the advantage dice. For example, if the sorcerer studied at the Collegia Pyrotechnica Magia, he may not use his School of Magic in relation to water, ice or wind based magic.

Yeah, I know this needs examples.

Incantation
If the Sorcerer names his incantation an appropriately florid and beautiful name, and offers a bit of verse or chant for the spell, the player gains +1D to cast the spell. Both conditions must be met.

Consequences
The art of sorcery has no set price. If the spell is successfully cast, there are no further ill effects. If the spell is failed, depending on the spell cast, and the whims of the gods, the sorcerer can suffer any number of deleterious effects.

The GM applies the consequences of the Sorcery as per the margin of failure and his judgement on the situation.

Tax
If the spell is failed, the GM may call for a Tax test (as per the standard rules).

Obstacle Penalty
The GM may apply margin of failure as an obstacle penalty applicable to the duration and breadth of the intended spell.

Turn a relationship
The GM may choose a relationship or named Circle on the Sorcerer character's sheet from favorable to hateful or rivalrous. This invokes the Enmity Clause conditions for Duel of Wits! If no relationship is present, the GM may assign one, too! Failed by one success indicates a minor relationship. Failed by two or three successes indicates a important relationship. Failed by four or more indicates a powerful relationship.

Gain an infamous reputation among people, spirits or animals
Even the birds have heard about what a bastard you are. If the spell is failed by one to three successes, the GM may assign the character an infamous reputation of a value equal to or less than the margin of failure in an appropriate sphere (people, spirits or animals).

Side effects
The GM may assign the spell a side effect. A side effect is an additional spell that is cast along with and whenever the main spell is cast -- even if the main spell has been Woven in (see below for that). The obstacle of the side effect spell is limited to 1 plus the margin of failure. The sorcerer does not have to pay to cast the side effect spell. It just happens whenever he chants this particular incantation.


Weaving Magic into the Fiber of my Being
A Sorcerer may eventually weave the fabric of spells and incantations into his very being. If he can cast the spell successfully a number of times equal to 10 minus his Will, he has learned the spell. He no longer needs to "cast" to produce its effects. Spells must be cast at appropriate junctures in play -- just like skill tests must be appropriate and applicable for advancement.

===

Comments are welcome on any of the examples or open questions listed. Otherwise, cast me some spells!

-L

PS: Wait until you see what I've got coming up next! It has destroyed all of the toast in my apartment!

[Iskander]

Balthazar's Brilliant Benifax (commonly known as Bard's Gold)

Create 2D cash-on-hand of gold coin that lasts for a scene. (Ob 5)


Angstrom Foss smiled winningly, and conceded that five sovereigns was a fair price indeed for such fine raiment - just the thing for a command appearance at court. He hesitated for a moment, well aware that he was breaking the rules of the Liberon Troubadic, then turned away so the merchant did not see Angstrom's eyes blaze with eldritch fire, or hear his muttered chant while he rooted around in his pack. The coins he eventually produced were newly-minted, soft, yellow and not even clipped - no matter that the ugly bastard on them wasn't local, the gold was good! A scant half-hour later, cries of outrage and grief were heard coming from the tailor's back room. Angstrom didn't care: by the time he came back this way, he was sure he'd be rich enough to repay the tailor. Assuming he remembered.


Devised by the notoriously fat bard, Balthazar, this application of the plasm creax to solidify a simple illusion into reality (if only temporarily) is the bane of provincial provisioners the world over: The lovely gold this incantation produces evaporates back into its essential plasm all too soon - usually shortly after the miscreant bard who created it has disappeared. The Liberon frowns on this misuse of a spell that has since been approved for lending a little literal help to songs of great booty (popular in the northern realms), and has been known to have bards bringing the college's name into ill-repute hunted down, and killed - usually by pouring molten gold down their throats. The display of the golden intestines of several former students are one of the high-points of the otherwise dreary second year at the college.

Creation: Ob 4 Resources (I think, I don't have my BW books)
Breadth: self (What's the breadth of Creation?)
Duration: +1 Ob (one test: Resources. Then run away.)

Affiliation: Liberon Troubadic, the college of bards, associated with the fire of passion, winds of change, music and illusion.
1D - Student, Journeyman, Bard.
2D - Gold prizewinner, Master, Teacher.
3D - Renowned troubador, Grand Master.

[Iskander]

Hengeltort's Harmonic Hammer

Cause internal wounds to one target: the protagonist of a dire ode. Ob 5.

"Very well, my liege, you shall have your song!"

None could mistake the rage in Foss' voice. Ridiculed and humiliated by Duke Orlech, he had suffered a torrent of vileness that left the Duchess pale, and the arrogant Duke's advisors wincing. The bard's unblinking eyes did not leave the porcine lord from the moment he raised his lute and began to sing softly of a greedy child, ignored by unloving parents, schooled in cruelty, desperate for love, growing addicted to perversion, lustful of torture, as ugly in body as in soul. As the bard's voice rose in ghastly melody, the chords he struck rang around the hall, each string on the lute shimmering in purplish hues painful to behold. His hair moving as if a gale raged through the hall, Angstrom Foss brought the song to its crucial climax with a hideous discord that struck Orlech like a blow. The Duke slumped over into the congealing fat of his unfinished meal, blood pooling below his chair from his liquifie innards. The bard rose, tipped his hat, and left, unhindered by the awestruck court.

Using the power of his voice and his instrument augmented by the harmonies of life itself, the bard causes a man's internal organs to rupture, split, swell, bleed and burst. This is the ulimate physical manifestation of Ugly Truth.

Destroy: base Ob 4.
Target: single person, one effect +1 Ob.
(Duration? A test... to hurt someone... or instant?)

[Iskander]

Pyromaniac Pete's Palpable Prick

Conjure a rapier wreathed in flame. Ob 4.

"What did you call me? You insufferable little fucker," yelled the burly dock-hand, "Armed or not, I'll have your nuts on a stick for that, you lickhole cockeater!"

On reflection, it might not have been such a bright idea to impugn the parentage of quite such a large navvy... but needs must when the devil drives, and Angstrom needed a brawl to divert the City Watch. Now, he would need to survive the fight he'd just started. Yelling an obscene (and rather obvious) limerick, the bard started an unmistakably vulgar hand gesture that surprised everyone but him with its conclusion: he pulled three-and-a-half feet of blazing steel from the hole his left thumb and forefinger made. The fight was ON!"

Conjure Sword: Ob 1
Spirit Weapon: +2 Ob
Breadth: self (free)
Duration: Fight! +1 Ob

[Iskander]

The Wanderer's Loins Are Girt With The Fortitude Of Mountains

Advantage dice to Steel tests. Suggested side effect: bard is at additional Ob to resist Seduction. (+1D: Ob 4, +2D Ob 5 etc.)

Before setting out on their journeyman's wander, bards of the Libron Troubaric are taught a rather useful incantation: The chant describes - in excruciating detail - the unfortunate travails of a luckless bard who seems to have fallen foul of every imaginable disaster (and several highly improbable ones that few would voluntarily imagine) that a good-looking young bard might encounter on the road. This song (sung without the benefit of the college's affiliation) draws strength from the rocks of roads themselves, and lends bards an intestinal fortitude that is irresistible to lords' young wives.

Advantage: 1D: Ob 1; 2D: Ob 2 etc.
Breadth: self - free
Duration: adventure +3 Ob

[luke]

Ok. Great!

I'm starting to form a picture in my head about the rules, and that you're fucking bored.

-L

[Dwight]

Not as nicely written up as Iskander's, and make suggestions please, but here's a few off the top of my head. I also tried to keep the alliterations theme for all the names...and pick on Iskander too? :confused: Maybe a different, more appropriate name needs to go in there? Like someone who has infamous Circles rolls? ;)

Iskander's Incesant Irritating Iterations

"I am woman, hear me roar,
In numbers too large to ignore...." - Helen Reddy

The Sorcerer creates a dazzling, repetative display often with multiple duplicate images for the crowds. As per Circles they may specify a certain individual they are attempting to locate and draw the attention of. Regardless of success the Enmity Clause is always invoked, but if the Ob is reached the intended person attracted are themselves disposed favourably towards the caster.

Ob, as per Circles - 2 (- 1 cool beans, -1 Emnity Clause drawback?) EDIT: This does however take away one decision from the GM, whether or not to use the Enmity Clause. So the player is forcing that they find someone approximating their description. Not sure how much a PITA that would be, or if it's worth something on the Ob? *shrug*


Lilithe's Luxurious Living

"Money, it’s a crime.
Share it fairly but don’t take a slice of my pie." - Money, Pink Floyd
The Sorcerer is able to pay his tithes and societial obligations and still retain the sum of her wealth. This spell takes the place of Lifestyle Maintenance or any Resoures Test involving payments to authorities including bribes. Resources are taxed by any magin of failure.

Ob as per Resources


Davis' Diminishing Delinquent Demica

"Money, so they say
Is the root of all evil today.
But if you ask for a raise it’s no surprise that they’re
Giving none away." - Money, Pink Floyd

This is the flipside of Lilithe's Luxurious Living. In place of Get A Job the spell can be cast to discover wealth, or wealthy friends, you didn't know you had to pay off taxed Resource dice, as per the Get A Job rules. EDIT: Oops, forgot duration. The die is recovered within total taxed dice days, extra successes can reduce this time at one success/day. Hrmmm, I guess there needs to be a limit on this? How about cast only once per session? Or you can only cast it once per 6 months?

Ob as per Get A Job


Feast For the Famished Fellowship

"Jesus therefore took the loaves; and having given thanks, he distributed to them that were set down; likewise also of the fishes as much as they would." - John 6:11, The Bible

Starting with any morsel of edible food the Sorcerer is able to create a meal for everyone as they hand food to each other.

Breadth = you pick, up to feeding a nation (+10 Ob) although anything involving more than the immediate pressense of the caster will require a duration above Instantaneous, and also require the logistics of travel for handing the food off over a distance
Duration = Instantaneous (or should this just be some sort of regular duration with no +Ob?), Session, or Adventure

[luke]

Dwight, meng. Interesting spells. Definitely stuff I've never considered!

However, you didn't give Breadth and Duration for your first two. What do you think would be appropriate?

Also, where did you get the Cool Beans and Drawback subtractives from?

-Luke

[Thor]

Timur's Tactless Tangletongue
Causes an opponent's tongue to disappear for the duration of one test. Ob 4.

Effect: Trait: Tongueless (Dt). Ob 1 + 2 (price of trait)
Breadth: Single Target, +1 Ob
Duration: Single test (no modifier)

[luke]

Ok. That's definitely my favorite so far.

[Dwight]

Dwight, meng. Interesting spells. Definitely stuff I've never considered!

However, you didn't give Breadth and Duration for your first two. What do you think would be appropriate?

Also, where did you get the Cool Beans and Drawback subtractives from?
Ummm, thin air? *blush* Sorry that's confusing, I was trying to figure out how I'd handle pricing....that's why I put the question mark in there. (EDIT: I think I was just overthinking that part and other portions of the rules leaked into my brain. :( ) Part of why the pricing isn't there, and why I'm a bit confused is this idea of Immediate. Is there something that isn't Immediate but not Session? Also I got the impression that the Ob for Resources was just the Resources Ob.

As for Duration I guess the question is how would you classify them? I tried to give a description of what was happening. Hrmm, if I put up a Duration on the Incesant Irritating Iterations it would cause a wierd artifact that being more patient with Circles could lead to the same Ob, if not a larger Ob. Or is that a good thing? Same thing with Breath, drawing from a larger area means this stabilizing of the Ob where the Circles portion is lowered by the Breath portion raises it back up?

[Thor]

Abzu's Polish Gypsy Curse
Turns an opponent's leg into a twisted and deformed lump of useless flesh. Mechanically, reduces Speed Multiplier to X3, victim may not use skills or traits that increase Speed Multiplier. Ob 4.

Effect: Trait: Lame (Dt). Ob 1 + 1 (trait cost)
Breadth: Single Target, + 1 Ob
Duration: Conflict: +1 Ob

[Iskander]

Thor's cheating! He's got the books! Waaaaaah!

(I love Timur's Tactless Tangletongue.)

[luke]

Hey Dwight, good questions.

Well, there's an instantaneous effect, like a bolt of lightning, an effect that lasts for the duration of one test, an effect that lasts for the length of a conflict... so i guess I'm not clear what you're asking for in that department.

Creation is definitely vague (and will probably come out), but you do have to have an Effect, Breadth and Duration for every spell.

And as for how I'd classify them? Well, I already know that, but that doesn't help me test out the system. Your gut reaction does.

Already you have told me much. In fact, I can read your future!

-L

[Thor]

Wormtongue's Black Suggestion
Turns the subject into a weak-willed, agreeable lapdog. Mechanically, the subject may only use the Not a Big Deal rules for his Body of Argument. Ob 5.

Effect: Trait: Weak-Willed (Dt). Ob 1 + 2 (trait cost)
Breadth: Single Target, +1 Ob
Duration: Conflict, +1 Ob

[luke]

Ouch!

[Iskander]

Edmund's Extraordinary Effulgence

"Wherefore base?"

Useful for kicking opponents in the balls, or otherwise making enemies, the spell makes the caster a Bastard for one test. Ob 5

(Also grants a ?temporary? 1D infamous reputation with nobility: Infamy, infamy, they've all got it in for me!)


Effect: Trait: Ob 1 + Bastard (4pts) Ob 4
Breadth: Self (free)
Duration: One test (free)

[Iskander]

Foley's Fickle Fancy

Makes a page pliable. Ob 5.

Effect: Traits: Ob 1 + 1 Catamite (Char) + 1 Peg-boy (Char) = Ob 3
Breadth: Single Target, +1 Ob
Duration: Conflict, +1 Ob

[Countercheck]

Slumber of the Dead OB 7

'Creeeeeaaak' Sylvia froze, her foot on the squeaky floorboard. Her handmaiden in her room next door stopped snoring for a moment, and Sylvia's heart stopped too. At the next grating, groaning inhalation, Sylvia relaxed, her momentary terror replaced with irritation. It was just like her parents to skip on the maintenance of the floors. She was convinced it was specifically so they could hear her when she snuck out for her magic lessons with Master Octavian. "Well, it serves them right," she muttered sourly, and made a few passes with her hands. When she finished, she smirked, no one would wake to anything quieter than a barbarian invasion!


Effects: Grants all subjects Deep Sleeper Trait ob3+1
Area of Effect: Group
Duration- one test

[luke]

Oh wow.

Now you're on to it.

Come on, someone make something gray with this magic! I know it can be done!

[Thor]

Jenskot's Uncontrollable Hideous Craving
The victim develops an insatiable blood lust and craving for meat. If still subject to the curse when he dies, the victim becomes a vampyr. Ob 7

Effect: Trait: Bloodlust (Dt), Ob 1 + 3 (trait cost)
Breadth: Single Target, +1 Ob
Duration: Session, +2 Ob

[Thor]

Gray? That's easy.

Kublai's Lament Answered
Turns a subject's Faith Gray for the duration of a test. Ob 7.

Effect: Trait: Chosen (Dt), Ob 1 + 5 (trait cost)
Breadth: Single Target, +1 Ob
Duration: Test (no modifier)

[johnstone]

Gotcha, Suckah!
Transforms an opponent's spell into a "Mundane, harmless creature (like a bird or a fish)".

Effect: Transform, Ob 2
Breadth: Single Target (the spell), +1 Ob
Duration: Instantaneous, +1 Ob

...can I add +1 Ob for half actions?
You'll want to cast this before your opponent finishes casting his spell!

[Thor]

Eternal Vigor of the First Children
Makes the caster immortal like elves. He does not feel heat and cold as men do, does not fall ill, and is ageless. He does not have to make Health tests for illness, and gains +1D to Health tests for fatigue and poison. May be killed by violence. Ob 7.

Effect: Trait: Fey Blood + Essence of the Earth (Dt), Ob 1 + 4 (trait cost)
Breadth: Self, no modifier
Duration: Session, +2 Ob (combine with Instinct to cast once per session)

[Iskander]

The Oak Circle

Bane of many a land-raping lordling, the Oak Circle trains those with the facility to commune with the energies of Nature itself, to tap into the Green, to hear wisdom in the creaking of a tree's bough, see warnings in the grass whorls of a windswept prairie: trains them to wield that power to challenge the encroaching greed of Men, Orcs and Dwarves on Nature's realm. Some say the Circle's bitter opposition serves to strengthen, others decry it as terrorism, but none can deny that a full Druid of the Oak Circle a force to be wary of.

Training in the Oak Circle grants enhances an Art Sorcerer's affinity with plant matter, fertile earth and fresh water.

Affiliations:
1D - Acolytes of the Oak Circle ("Twigs").
2D - Masters of the Oak Circle ("Boughs").
3D - Heartwood of the Oak Circle ("Trunks")

[johnstone]

Looking over the money-related spells, the easiest way to get more money is just to give yourself advantage dice, since the spell Ob = extra dice. Ob 3 spell? pshaw! +3D Resources? Shweet!

My money is just worth more...

[Brand_Robins]

I'm sure there are better ways to do these, as the Ob tend to be massive, but...

The Necromancers of Zal-Bah-Sair

The descendants of the torturers of lost Tasuun and its mummy haunted palaces of chalcedony, the dread Necromancers have retained their knowledge of the forbidden scrolls of Mordiggian, the Ghoul God. Now they work their foul magics from the infamous isle of Nat, where they rule from towers of death white marble and night black onyx. All carry the symbol of their god somewhere upon their bodies, an image of the blood-red lilies of Satar.

Training with the Necromancers gains affinity to spells that deal in death, the grave, and the unctuous and nauseous creeping of protoplasmic matter.

Some of their spells include:

Ouphaloc's Death-Granted Potence

Grants unto the sorcerer the inexorable strength of the grave, stolen from the jaws of the howling jackal god Ouphaloc. Ob 9

Effect: Traits: Ob 1 + 8 (Incredibly Strong) = 9
Breadth: Self, no change
Duration: Test, no change

The Serpent-Carven Chair<

By tracing the images of the ancient serpents that guard the grave of Namirrha, who ruled the black cities of Xylac, the necromancer installs in whoever sits in the chair the commanding presence of the dread lord. Ob 5

Effect: Traits: Ob 1 + 2 (Dominant Will) = 3
Breadth: Single Target, +1 Ob
Duration: Conflict, +1 Ob

The Purple Bruises of Love

By taking a sample of a target, such as hair or saliva, the necromancers can bind them with desire as sinful as the over swollen fruits that ripen above the abyss. This effects both the target and the necromancer, awakening in the first a furious lust and royal madness and in the second a tenebrous beauty that draws the eyes of the cursed. Ob 9

Effect: 1 + Trait 1 (Beauty of the Tomb, call on for seduction to the Necromancer, usable only vs the target), + 2 Obstacle Penalty (+2 to the Ob of any Will or Perception test made by the target against the Necromancer) = +4 Ob
Breadth: Group, Handful, two abilities, +3 Ob
Duration: Session, +2 Ob
Suggested Failure: Failing this spell often causes the effects to become reversed, and many of the necromancers have met their ends as the slave-puppets of those they would have bound.

[Countercheck]

An idea... since this is based on the Circles (and, to a lesser extent, the Tech Burner rules), if the caster exceeds the obstical by one, should they be able to inscribe the spell on something and use it as a rote, granting one advantage die whenever casting that spell? It follows the Named mechanic for Circles, and brings in the concept of spellcasters having bags of bone chips with runes inscribed on them, spellbooks, engraved staffs, and even tatoos.

[Dwight]

Well, there's an instantaneous effect, like a bolt of lightning, an effect that lasts for the duration of one test, an effect that lasts for the length of a conflict... so i guess I'm not clear what you're asking for in that department.
Ok, I think I've got a better handle on it. Yeah, I missed that every spell must have a Base, Duration, and Breath modifier specified. So, to try again:


Iskander's Incesant Irritating Iterations

The Sorcerer creates a dazzling, repetative display often with multiple duplicate images for the crowds. As per Circles they specify a target individual they are attempting to locate and draw the attention of. Regardless of success the Enmity Clause is always invoked, but if the Ob is reached the intended person attracted are themselves disposed favourably towards the caster.

Base: Circles
Breadth: area drawn from as per Circles...no wait, I'll look at it the other way and say Breadth is "Single target +1" (because that's all that Circles targets, a single person)
Duration: Test (No Modifier)


Lilithe's Luxurious Living

This spell takes the place of Lifestyle Maintenance or any Resoures Test involving payments to authorities including bribes. The Sorcerer is able to pay his tithes and societial obligations and still retain the sum of her wealth. Often involving pulling coins, deeds, promissory notes, and other items of wealth right out of their purse. Resources are taxed by any magin of failure.

Base: Ob as per Resources
Breadth: Self (no modifier)
Duration: Test (no modifier)
Note: This works out to the same as my original Ob, simply Resources.


Davis' Diminishing Delinquent Demica

This is the flipside of Lilithe's Luxurious Living. In place of Get A Job the spell can be cast to send off homoculi on errands to discover wealth, or wealthy friends, you didn't know you had to pay off taxed Resource dice as per the Get A Job rules. The process takes up to 6 months, but the sorcerer is freed to do as they wish during that time.

Base: Number of taxed Resource Dice+1
Breadth: Self (no modifier) EDIT: With an extra +1 Ob you can have your magical servants perform this searching service for a friend.
Duration: Test (no modifier)


Feast For the Famished Fellowship

Starting with any morsel of edible food the Sorcerer is able to create a meal for everyone as they hand food to each other.

Base = Food For The Day, Ob 1
Breadth = caster's choices, from feeding yourself (no modifier) up to feeding a nation (+10 Ob) although anything involving more than the immediate pressense of the caster requires the logistics of travel for handing the food off from person to person
Duration = Test (no modifier)


Already you have told me much. In fact, I can read your future!
Hehe, you should have seen my do a Briggs-Meyers Test the first time. I'm so EXTP that the columns didn't add up correctly because I was periodically answering True AND False, and sometimes neither. :rolleyes:

[gooderguy]

March of the Dread Legion Ob 8

The villagers hack and chop at the legion as they sack the town, but the blows simply cannot stop the onslaught of destruction.

Bestow Trait - Thousand Yard Stare (2+1) +3
Breadth - Legion (crowd) +4
Duration - conflict +1

Plague of the Lonely Ob 10

"It started with the teenage boys, but the curse didn't end there."

Bestow Trait - Blindness (1+1) +2
Breadth - Village +6
Duration - Session +2

[Countercheck]

Veil

Sylvia snuck out of the house without incident, but turned the corner out into the market when she was confronted by a pack of bravos. "Well little girl," said one, licking his lips, "you're certainly out late."

She snarled under her breath, "I don't have time for this," and cast a collection of black silk scraps out of her pocket. They grew as they fluttered through the air, and adhered to the faces of the bravos, blinding them. Their curses followed her as she sprinted down the alley...

Bestow Trait - Blindness (1+1) +2
Breadth - group +3
Duration - Conflict +1

Total Ob 6


Elaine's Excruciating Emasculation

Straight into the arms of yet another bravo. This was not her night. Muttering horrific imprecations, she spat into the smiling thug's crotch. He stood there for a moment, absolutely still, before emitting a faint squeak and falling quietly backwards.

Bestow Trait - Eunuch +2
Breadth - Individual +1
Duration Session -2

Total Ob 5

Question: will some spells cause a steel test on their own, even if a steel test isn't included in the spell? Do I need to add a steel test to Elaine's Excruciating Emasculation, or would the shock of suddenly being castrated force a steel test on it's own?

[Brand_Robins]

I'd also like to say that, just so far, I find The Wanderer's Loins Are Girt With The Fortitude Of Mountains, Timur's Tactless Tangletongue, Wormtongue's Black Suggestion, Elaine's Excruciating Emasculation, and Plague of the Lonely to be made of awesome.

[Dwight]

Another question, can Elaine Emasculate any single man with equal difficulty/ease? Does the target, or more precisely their stats, have no say in the matter?

[Brand_Robins]

A couple more.

Fortune Favors the Bold

Wizards thrive on victory, and so do those that serve them. For those that walk in the shadows of magic it is safest to find life in death and let fear never sway you. Ob 9

Effect: Add Traits +3 (1 + 2 for Resigned to Death); +2 (+2 Bonus dice to all attack rolls following an immediately previous successful attack roll) = +5
Breadth: Single Target, Multiple Abilities +3
Duration: Conflict +1
Failure: As wizards thrive on victory, so do they suffer more from setbacks. If this spell is failed in addition to normal penalties the wizard suffers a -2 dice penalty to all defense rolls after any immediately previous failed defense roll.

Pantherish Twist

There is no one on earth harder to read and pin down than a wizard. Ob 7

Effect: Add Traits +6 (1 + 5 for Artful Dodger)
Breadth: Self +0
Duration: Conflict +1

Mandala: Yantra-Raja

Made of powdered gold and lotus blossoms, the mantra is drawn thus: The double walls of the four gated city surround the eight petals of the dawning lotus, inside the heart of the lotus is the symbol hrim: seed of maya. This Mandala is drawn to give power when dealing with supernatural forces and powers. Ob 4

Effect: +2 Bonus dice to tests dealing with supernatural creatures while the caster remains in the center of the mandala = +2
Breadth: Single Target +1
Duration: Conflict +1

Mandala: Ganapati Yantra

Drawn with the thorn of the Bel Tree upon a sheet of porphyry using ink made of the blood of gola flowers, the Ganapati Yantra is drawn thus: The square of the macrocosm pointing to the north, south, east, and west; the square of the microcosm pointing to the poles of fire, wind, water, and earth. Inside is the opening lotus engraved with the 16 names and 24 forms, surrounded by the chant: AUM Citpingala Hana Hana, Daha Daha, Paca Pca Sarvanajnaopoya Svaha. To he who stands in the center of this diagram comes the knowledge of all the world. Ob: As skill

Effect: Use Sorcery as any Wise.
Breadth: Self
Duration: Test

Also, I notice that I tend to default to adding traits as the main mode for making spells in this system. A lot of the other spells we've seen do as well. Not that this is a bad thing, just a thought I had.

[Thor]

Stormcrow's Invitation
Grants the caster +3D Advantage to a Circles test. Ob 3.

Effect: 3D Advantage dice, +3 Ob
Breadth: Self (no modifier)
Duration: Test (no modifier)

[Thor]

Fourth Horseman's Grasping Tentacles
Black tentacles erupt from the earth and grasp the caster's opponents in a death grip. Mechanically, the victims must test their Power (at +2 Ob) against the Sorcerer's Sorcery skill, or be Locked by the margin of failure. Ob 8.

Effect: Tweak (victims must make Power test), Ob 2
Effect: Obstacle Penalty (victim suffers +2 Ob penalty), Ob 2
Breath: Group, +3 Ob
Duration: Conflict, +1 Ob

[Thor]

Also, I notice that I tend to default to adding traits as the main mode for making spells in this system. A lot of the other spells we've seen do as well. Not that this is a bad thing, just a thought I had.

True, although mostly I think that's just that we're having fun coming up with curses and whatnot. I suspect that most of the practical applications will involve a handful of Advantage dice, or an Obstacle penalty for an enemy, or the ever-popular damaging effect spells. First because the Ob tends to be lower for these effects (although the Ob 4 trait effects are pretty damn cool), and second because the low Ob means you can cast them faster.

Note that this type of sorcery does not benefit from Spell Weaver (i.e., you don't get to add your Will dice to your Sorcery skill when you roll. It's purely Sorcery skill + School of Magic, if applicable).

In other words, the range of Obstacles that it's practical to cast are much smaller. Even Ob 4 spells will be somewhat risky. The Ob 7 or Ob 8 stuff that we're posting is just asking for trouble!

[Dwight]

Ob 4 to blind someone in battle (Blind (1+1) + Person (1) + Combat (1)) is pretty nasty. Sure there a definative risk of backfiring, and the Ob 4 is a pretty good deterent for that. But you succeed there is no tax and you are on easy street as you and your friends kick the blind guy in the kidneys. Plus you can do this to a high stat Gray or White!

Now what about Blind (1+1) + Person (1) + Test (0) = Ob 3. You Blind an opponent for one of their Tests? To what, spot you? At Ob 3 that's kind of a cheesy way to give them a really high +Ob for their test without having to pay for it. Same thing for making someone lame during a chase.

EDIT: That's the path on which "cool beans" leaked into my brain BTW.

EDIT2: And I have no idea what possessed me to use Sorcery directly for a Circles rolls. :) It just sort of did an associative jump from Irritating Alliterations + Circles being mentioned in the model. I do think though that being able to handle a Lifestyle Test like that is a bit worrisome. Less so because because I purposefully narrowed the scope, but you could turn it wide open to have a spell to buy anything. So there you are with your freshly burned 4 LP character, her 6 open-end Sorcery dice, plus a couple dice from the Magic Circles or whatever, feeling pretty damn confident throwing down dice to buy a big thick gold pendant chain to wear while smoking pot and having a knight do your yard work.

[luke]

Another question, can Elaine Emasculate any single man with equal difficulty/ease? Does the target, or more precisely their stats, have no say in the matter?

Ah hah! Now we get to the thick of it. That's an excellent question. Current sorcery rules allow for this, but these, as you have pointed out, do not.

However, the duration for these spells tend to be pretty short.

A couple of things are clear: The Creation thing sucks. I'm going to kill it for now. The trait thing is freaking awesome. Finally, curses!

The obstacles are good, but Thor is rightly abusing the hell out of the cursed low-point cost traits. While it makes incredibly good color, there might be an inherent bias in this magic toward debilitating curses. Is that a bad thing? I'm not sure.

-L

[Thor]

Also, no one has really used the Destroying with Sorcerous Fire and Arcane Magics thing yet, so it hasn't come up, but how do we deal with Range in this? It's clear with Sorcerous Weapon, but not with the other type.

Also, for that type of magic, how do you get successes over the Obstacle once you've woven the spell into the fiber of your being? Do we just assume that you can now cast the spell at will, but it is not as potentially potent as it once was (i.e., Power = Will, period)?

[Dwight]

I do like the Traits in a lot of ways, especially the 'positive' ones. Even the colour of the 'negative' ones. Like you say, curses and hexes!

The fundamental problem with Trait prices is that they are priced on a voluntarily taking them basis. You want to be blind? Wow, your lucky day because we are having a blow-out sale on sticks-to-the-eye! Unfortunately those effects are all hidden into the numbers, so no easy way to have people use the subset of the pricing. Do you see any wiggle room in the numbers to allow the target some sort of opportunity to oppose them at the target's option? Say a Forte or Health roll, not just using the Exponent for the stat like you do with Spell Weaving targets? EDIT: That way you don't have to go through and say "this Trait is good, this Trait is bad" you just let the players sort that out themselves from the situation.

Yeah Creation is just humbugered set at the Resources Ob, especially with the way I was sidestepping "Duration". :(

I'm feeling kinda underwelmed by Advantage Effects too. *shrug* They just feel to me like cheap immitations of Dt. Obstacle Effects are like cheap immitations of Traits too, but they make more sense because Obstacle Effect type Traits because of the pricing mentioned above.

EDIT: I'll give a shot at the flash and bang spells later, maybe tomorrow (getting ready for son's 2nd birthday party right now). They just aren't big favourites of mine, so I'd left them alone so far. Also has anyone done a Knowledge category spell? That seems a lot like Practical Magic with just a different tax and stakes? Not that the overlap is bad, just noticing.

[Dwight]

Brainstorm. The target may choose to resist having the trait applied. To resist they substitute a stat, or the roll of a stat, in place of the Trait price in the formula. So someone tries to Blind you in Fight! You say "screw that, I roll my....er Health" and now the Ob changes from Ob 4 to Ob (Health roll)+3. The resulting Ob is probably higher, but it could even be lower.

Hrmmm, that does leave the loophole of having a 'beneficial' Trait being applied easier to people with gutter dregs stats. But maybe that's worth the trade-off?

[luke]

No! No resisting or complicated rolls. This has got to be fast -- fire and forget!

Sorcerer is risking all sorts of bad stuff when he casts these spells. And the spell lasts for such a short time.

How about Ob 2+Trait for curses, Ob 1+Trait for boons?

Anyway, in case it wasn't clear, this is an alpha draft of these rules. All of the numbers and effects are going to change.

-L

[Dwight]

No! No resisting or complicated rolls. This has got to be fast -- fire and forget!
Exocet missle magic! Got it now. I'm kinda slow on the uptake that way. :D

How about Ob 2+Trait for curses, Ob 1+Trait for boons?
That sounds pretty good, just simply a higher base Ob to add the Trait to if the target says it's under duress.

[RRodger]

Tweak
Cause another character to make a physical stat or martial or physical skill test of your choosing or a Steel or Health test. Stat, Ob 2. Skill or attribute, Ob 3. Make a versus test with the Sorcery skill (this is separate from the casting roll). This is used to shove, immobilize, knock down
Is there a limit to the consequences for failing the test?

[Dwight]

I don't know about the extent of the consequences, but Tweak right now seems very un-Exocet having the sorcerer rolling Sorcery twice? Anyway here are a couple 'classic' fire and forgets.

Ye Ol' Fireball, Ob 8 ^

I came, I saw them, I turned them to ash. Damage to everyone in a group is VA 2, IMS (Will/2, Will, Will*1.5), DoF as per bow. Extra successes increase damage by +2 per.

Destroy: Ob 4
Breadth: Group +3 Ob
Duration: Combat +1 Ob

Smote By The Gods, Ob 6 ^

"Come on Baby, I'd never cheat on you. That was my sister you saw me with. May I be struck down by Lightning if I'm lieing!" *Z-Z-ZOT* Electrical damage to a single individual of VA 2, IMS (Will/2, Will, Will*1.5), DoF as per bow. Extra successes increase damage by +2 per.

Destroy: Ob 4
Breadth: Single +1 Ob
Duration: Combat +1 Ob

EDIT: To add to Thor's question about range, can I spend extra successes to improve DoF like with a weapon? Not that it is that critical with a +2 power per success, just wondering. Also what part of an opponent's armor do I go up against with this? It isn't directed at a body location, right? You know, I don't think I've ever come across that with a BW spell before because the VA's I've dealt with are the really high ones, (and the one spell that says no armor against it at all) and I don't recall anything coming into play that could stand up to say the VA 8 of Whitefire, or practically unarmoured targets. I'm not sure there is even a standard spell below VA 3, or where it deals in the rules with armor against spells.

However with a VA 2 you are now in an area where it is going to matter a good deal if it is my skull cap or my reinforced leather chest armor that rolls. I guess I'll sleep on that, see if I can find the answer in the morning, and post the question in the BWR forum if I can't.

[Iskander]

Also, no one has really used the Destroying with Sorcerous Fire and Arcane Magics thing yet, so it hasn't come up, but how do we deal with Range in this? It's clear with Sorcerous Weapon, but not with the other type.

Also, for that type of magic, how do you get successes over the Obstacle once you've woven the spell into the fiber of your being? Do we just assume that you can now cast the spell at will, but it is not as potentially potent as it once was (i.e., Power = Will, period)?

Hegeltort's Harmonic Hammer uses wind/sound to liquefy the innards. Destructive enough? ;-)

Maybe you choose - roll it to get +s (maybe kill, maybe miss) or be safe with the guaranteed hit.

[The_Tim]

Cool stuff. A question and a suggestion. First, can you take away access to Traits that someone has using the Traits category? If so, there would be some nifty spells in there, a little "Bitter Taste of Mortality" for those arrogant elves and "Cooling the Black Flames" to have rational discussions with Orcs. Second, I notice transformation only came up once. It seems like transformation could be a matter of applying Traits. This would make it far more difficult than currently listed, though it is currently Obs 7 to make someone a fish for the whole campaign (it's 10 or so to pull the trick from Willow, turning the opposing army into pigs for the duration of the seige conflict).

Anyway, a few spells by the current rules.

Zeus's Rage Unleashed Obs 9

The pagan sorcerer stood by the ruins of his temple. Above him clouds gathered and the air across the battle field grew heavy. There was a moment when the commanders paused and considered, but they lead their men on. As they crossed the faint line in the dirt, the storm opened up. There was no rain, only thunder and lightning and the spray of blood from weather ravaged bodies.

Effect: Destroy (Obs 4)
Breadth: Group (Obs 3)
Duration: Instant (Obs 1) and Conflict (Obs 1)

Causes a display of thunder and lighting over an area that strikes at a group for the duration of its assault on the caster.

I'm pretty sure it lets you create a storm that lashes out at your enemies throughout a conflict. I think group is appropriate for hitting a couple of people a volley. If you go with only one person per volley, it would be only an Obs 7 spell.

Woman's Burden Given Obs 3

It was agony. Without respite, without purpose. Marcus clutched at his stomach, unable to believe it was not swollen. The pain took a slow course through his groin, dropping him to the ground with a whimper.

Effect: Tweak (Obs 2)
Breadth: Single Target (Obs 1)
Duration: Test (No Obs)

Forces a Steel test due to terrible pain.

I suppose the Duration might be Instant, as the individual suffers the pain and makes the Steel test and then Hestitates (or doesn't). However, it seems to me that the pain hits with the spell and the Steel test is made to deal with, and the result of that test serves as the duration.

[Dwight]

Because the idea is so damn hot, and I wish I'd put it to words first.

Bitter Taste of Mortality

"An audible gasp fell from Glorn Leafmuncher as he looked down at his hand and saw himself decaying as the rest of living creatures." The sorcerer negates the Essense of the Earth for the Elf for one session.

Base: 2 + 6 (very quick estimate of Trait cost, I'm in a rush out the door)
Duration: uh Session +2
Breadth: Single +1

Total: Ob 11

[Piers]

I like the way this seems to be going.

Here's a technical question: Does giving someone a trait make them eligible for Artha?

E.g.: I give a character Blind (Ob2+1) for the duration of combat (+1Ob). The application of the trait causes them trouble. Are they eligible for a Fate point.

If so, giving character traits becomes way more interesting.

[luke]

Yup.

And it's not trouble. It's pushing the story in an interesting direction.

[Thor]

If so, giving character traits becomes way more interesting.

Yes for Character traits. No for other types of traits (in my opinion). Spells to make someone Beautiful, Jealous, or Murderous are definitely awesome and subtle. Those kinds of spells are what really make me excited about this new form of magic.

[stormsweeper]

Also, no one has really used the Destroying with Sorcerous Fire and Arcane Magics thing yet, so it hasn't come up, but how do we deal with Range in this? It's clear with Sorcerous Weapon, but not with the other type.

Also, for that type of magic, how do you get successes over the Obstacle once you've woven the spell into the fiber of your being? Do we just assume that you can now cast the spell at will, but it is not as potentially potent as it once was (i.e., Power = Will, period)?

I'm not sure I like the "no roll to cast" bit. perhaps that could be that the spell becomes easier to cast via bonus dice of some amount? Allowing you to add Will dice seems like a natural thing, but that migth tilt too much in the other direction.

[Dwight]

I'm not sure I like the "no roll to cast" bit. perhaps that could be that the spell becomes easier to cast via bonus dice of some amount? Allowing you to add Will dice seems like a natural thing, but that migth tilt too much in the other direction.
I like the idea of just adding dice. Keeping in the "Circles" metaphor the "woven the spell into the fiber" would be more a building of a Reputation limited to just that spell, which would stack with the other Reputation dice you have bought/learned. You could even continue to build the Reputation up from 1D through to 3D.

[Thor]

You guys are no fun. Without Magic Is Woven into the Fiber of My Being, Side Effects lacks bite and juicy, juicy consequences. It's one of my favorite parts of this system.

[Dwight]

You guys are no fun.
Yes.

Without Magic Is Woven into the Fiber of My Being, Side Effects lacks bite and juicy, juicy consequences. It's one of my favorite parts of this system.
I guess maybe I don't get this extra bite from Side Effects that automatic success imparts? Maybe I don't exactly understand Side Effects (EDIT: and how they interact with Magic Is Woven). Explain to me please, and use small explicit words. Not only am I unfun, I'm also a bit slow at times. ;)

I still like Magic Is Woven as a general concept, just not as being able to cast it automatically. Actually in my mind I've got this concept brewing that the repeated use Stains the sorcerer.

Same with all the more general extra "Circles" type dice, they are Stains. (EDIT:The Stains being, from one POV, a corruption and this corruption is also what leads to those poisonous relationships that the sorcerer inevitably picks up.) Some Stains are deeper than others, and the sorcerer taps into the magic through these (EDIT: often overlapping) Stains.

P.S. Unfortunately that line of my thinking is headed into the area of making it all an explicit EA instead of a psuedo EA like Art of Sorcery is now. I'm trying right now to reconcile my thoughts with Luke's direction to avoid a fork....because I'm lazy :p and cognisant of my resources and wouldn't want to try put together and fully refine a whole sorcery sub-system by myself.

[Thor]

Magic Is Woven into the Fiber of My Being is a big, delicious carrot. Side Effects are a fat, scary stick.

As a GM, I don't mind if you have an effect you can cast at will if I've managed to add a side effect or three that you have to deal with everytime you have to cast the spell.

Ideally, you'll have to agonize between casting a spell to get you out of some trouble but dealing with its side effects, or not casting the spell.

[stormsweeper]

Unless I'm misreading the last paragraph there, not rolling to cast the spell would be the thing avoiding consequences (albeit after
any number of failed castings among the handful of successful ones).

[Thor]

Unless I'm misreading the last paragraph there, not rolling to cast the spell would be the thing avoiding consequences (albeit after
any number of failed castings among the handful of successful ones).

Every failed casting has the potential to add side effects that become permanent features of the spell. Those side effects remain even after you no longer have to roll for the spell.

[stormsweeper]

Magic Is Woven into the Fiber of My Being is a big, delicious carrot. Side Effects are a fat, scary stick.

As a GM, I don't mind if you have an effect you can cast at will if I've managed to add a side effect or three that you have to deal with everytime you have to cast the spell.

Ideally, you'll have to agonize between casting a spell to get you out of some trouble but dealing with its side effects, or not casting the spell.

I understand the argument, I guess I'm just gunshy after too many castings of a spell that rhymes with Churning Beer. ;)

[Dwight]

Unless I'm misreading the last paragraph there, not rolling to cast the spell would be the thing avoiding consequences (albeit after
any number of failed castings among the handful of successful ones).
Yeah, that's what I'm getting too.......but may not be if the Side Effect is/can be Woven In first?

Is that the part you are talking about Thor? I'm not user where the 2nd or 3rd Side Effect comes in though?

Anyway, as a sorcerer, if the Side Effect is Woven In first I'm likely to just dump the spell and move on. Because to have the main [desired] effect Woven In I'll have to endure any number of automatic Side Effects. But if the main effect is Woven In then I'm free of the Side Effects.

EDIT:
Every failed casting has the potential to add side effects that become permanent features of the spell. Those side effects remain even after you no longer have to roll for the spell.
Whoa, I gotta go back and look at that again because I didn't come away with that.

[Thor]

Anyway, as a sorcerer, if the Side Effect is Woven In first I'm likely to just dump the spell and move on. Because to have the main [desired] effect Woven In I'll have to endure any number of automatic Side Effects. But if the main effect is Woven In then I'm free of the Side Effects.

That's fine. But you won't be able to achieve that effect again without the side effects. So that's one less effect you'll be able to pull off.

[Dwight]

That's fine. But you won't be able to achieve that effect again without the side effects. So that's one less effect you'll be able to pull off.
Maybe it'd play ok, I just think that it'd have to be a damn big Maybe Carrot compared to a small For Sure Kick To The Happysack for me to take on a repeated kick to get at the carrot. The difference being enough that the kick is relatively inconciquential once they are both automatic. I guess we need some examples, do any of the spells listed so far have explicit side effects? Besides that discarded Circle's check spell I did (that had the side effect already automatic *forehead palm*)? Or are they all suppose to be on-the-fly assigned by the GM and can vary from casting to casting as opposed to designed right into the spell?

[The Dragon Master]

When talking about side effects, I think they are refering to the place in the Distilation chapter of the Abstractions pdf, where it talks about failed distilation (pg 18 if you want to verify what I'm putting down). There it says that if the test is failed by one or two successes, then you roll for variance on the Wheel of Magic, using only the rings the sorcerer was distilling. The variance is now written into the spell and isn't discovered until the next time the abstraction is cast. I assume they are applying the same theory to these side effects. In other words, treating Woven In like a new form of Spell Distilation. In a way, it makes a lot of sense, given that you are effectively doing the same thing (albeit in a different manner, writing it into your flesh rather than combining facets... or am I just getting confused on that point?).

[Dwight]

Ok, so on a failure one (or more?) of the following can occur: Tax, Obstacle Penalty, Turn a relationship, Gain an infamous reputation among people, spirits or animals, or Side Effects.

The Side Effect is chosen it doesn't occur at that point, but is permanently attached to the spell from tha point on and gets concurrently cast when you cast the spell. The Ob can be no more than is 1 + Margin of failure. I'd have to think about that. But the specter of a caster with say Will 6 hitting a spell 4 times and then never having to worry about failure or negative side effects again still looms for automatic casting.

P.S. Something tha occurs to me, theoretically a Side Effect can be even harder to cast than the original, so what happens if you succeed at the main spell fail on the Side Effect?

[The Dragon Master]

1. I think you're right about this part.

2. Not really sure on this one.

3. As I understand it, the side effect is simply an automatic part of the spell. Instead of testing for the main spell, and then testing again for the side effect, you just have one test, and either suceed at both, or fail at both. The side effect isn't another spell that you cast whenever you cast the main spell, it is actually a part of it. One spell with two effects (the intended and the side effect).

At least, that is how I understand it to work. Is there someone out there with more than my (admitedly meager) authority on this subject who can confirm or deny my interperetation?

[luke]

The Weaving is probably going to be devolved into Reputation-like abilities for individual incantations and probably reduced action times.

Side Effects automatically happen. Yah don't have to roll for them ever. And they DO happen the first time you cast and screw it up.

-L

[Thor]

The Weaving is probably going to be devolved into Reputation-like abilities for individual incantations and probably reduced action times.

I think that's lame. You might as well just leave it as Sorcery + Will then, as it's essentially the same thing.

When we first started talking about our ideas for this kind of magic, we tossed around the idea of adding in a Reputation analog in addition to the affiliation analog and we discarded the idea because it just led back to mountains of dice for the sorcery roll.

I think modeling it after the rules for building relationships out of your Circles is far more interesting and novel.

Further, I really don't like the way it interacts with the side-effect rules. Now you're guaranteed to continue building side effect after side effect into your spell, even with the 13D you'll now generate for your Hail of Fire or whatever.

[luke]

Whelp, the autocast thing isn't going to work. And the obstacles are trending higher than they are for most current sorcerous spells, perhaps another die or two won't hurt.

Or, we just shelve the weaving concept for something else.

[Dwight]

Further, I really don't like the way it interacts with the side-effect rules. Now you're guaranteed to continue building side effect after side effect into your spell, even with the 13D you'll now generate for your Hail of Fire or whatever.
Now that I understand Side Effects better I see where you are coming from. I'm still with Luke on the automatic not being tenable, although maybe not for the same reason? Because that 'pile' of dice that you end up with is still less powerful than the infinite of not having to roll dice at all.

What if the Side Effect wasn't permanent? What if it was a hickup that'll work itself out over time? [EDIT: Right now Side Effect is the only permanent unremediable class of drawback.] Or what if it an unknown to the caster (caster's player?) that only occurs once and that on the next time you cast that spell? So you know it's coming down the pipe, but you don't know what it is. You could beef up tho Ob on it a bit then too. "Am I going to pucker up, bear down, and fight my way through this one time or not? Hey, it might not be so bad." Just one more time and I'm back out ahead is the ultimate gamblers draw, and I think that's what we want?

I say higher Ob because right now you'd have to pooch pretty bad to have a cool side effect. If you are talking Traits you have to roll 2+Duration under just to get any one.

[Piers]

How about this as an alternate form of weaving (and a way to avoid having to write enchantment rules):

Rather than free casting, why not have the weaving happen when the same spell is cast on the same _target_ the appropriate number of times, and take effect as sort of semi permanent effect: cast blindness on someone too many times and they become (perhaps only interminently) blind.

For a real "magic bends and warps over time" effect (a la Barbara Hambly's _Dog Wizard_), add a standard:

+1Ob per spell already on the target

and

If a side effect occurs, it may effect any and all spells on a target.

[Dwight]

For a real "magic bends and warps over time" effect (a la Barbara Hambly's _Dog Wizard_), add a standard:

+1Ob per spell already on the target
That sounds like a good device to encourage creativity in coming up with new spells, I like it. The book keeping, which is likely going to be high for this system already, is starting to worry me a bit. But I'm pretty sensitive to that sort of thing so it could just be me.

Speaking of new spells, there is no cost for a sorcerer developing a new spell for the first time ever? Because with Circles there is that initial bump of once you do get hold of someone new for the first time you have their name and that gives you a +1D. I'm not saying +1D nessasarily, but what about +1Ob the first time you ever cast a new spell? Just to prime the Side Effects pump I was talking about and provide a bit more incentive to keep on with spells you know (but on new targets).

[The_Tim]

I think a Reputation analog for the system would be interesting; perhaps you could purchase Tools for spell-craft. Like Schools examples would be necessary, and there would have to be something to differentiate the options.

My first thought is that the form and employment of the Tool will decide what it can be used for. Got a ceremonial dagger as a 1D Wizard's Tool? Damaging spells are obvious, but I'm sure you could also use it to work blood oaths and what not. The key is the spell must include the tool's prominent use to gain the dice from it.

You can try to cast the spell without the Tool, but that's going to be painful with these Obs.

When you Weave a spell, you can leave behind the tools and teachings that led you to it, drop the Obs by the School and Tool dice first used in the spell, to a min of 1. If you cast it with straight Sorcery when in a jam you're still sitting pretty. If you have the Tools and decide to employ the School's teachings, then you get all of those dice against the lowered Obs.

[Kaare Berg]

I am pulled between this and the practical magic for my upcoming BW:Planescape campaign.

But it is leaning towards this because of the magic schools.
more specifically this:

They represent an idiomatic magical expression that benefits the casting of certain spells.

Because this is so adaptable to Planescape which is all about what you belive.

So you've been trained in a school of order and good, but you are finding yourself at the fifth level of the pandemonium (chaos and evil). You may still cast the spell, but your school training isn't doing you any good.

So I am eagerly awating a summary so that I can cut and paste it inot the Welcome to thsi camapign booklet I'll send to my crew.

Until then are you guys looking towards the combination of several breadths. This here says that you may combine several effects, but it doesn't mention breadth.

Once he has described the spell and its intent, he adds together the appropriate obstacle modifiers for Effect, Breadth and Duration. Effect may be added multiple times.

Then a spell like Old Mans Burden will be possible

"Wheezing and coughing the assilants slowed like the chains of age bound their limbs"

Obstacle Penalty: Speedtest + 3 ob (+4 ob)
Breadth: one ability (+1 ob)
Breadth: group (+3ob)
Duration: Fight (+1 ob)

Or am I way off here. I am thinking The Emperor hand here.

[Dwight]

They represent an idiomatic magical expression that benefits the casting of certain spells.
I'm not sure exactly what Luke had in mind for that. Thor mentioned previous discussions, which I haven't found on the board. So I guess they were at the table or over milkshakes or something. But I get the impression that it was more to do with Circles and less to do with Traits and this unresistable curse idea. It feels a lot like Luke took two ideas and grafted one onto the other.

Only problem now is that the a key portion of the concept, for Thor, has hit into the quite possible occurance in game of a trifecta of "no resisting by the target", "unlimited use without direct consequence", and "no chance of failure". :(

Maybe idea overload? So myself I've sort of changed focus towards the curses (Traits), because that's really the core of what excites me about this rather than full emulation of the Circles rules. But it's also lead me in sort of a different direction to a more specific use of this so it doesn't really fall under Art of Sorcery anymore. :( On the upside I do have someone lined up to play it in some 1-player sessions, but I'm not super confident yet about the Obs or how to divy up those Afilliation analogues. It might be very setting dependant, so maybe guidelines for burning them rather than specifics?

P.S. Interesting idea about the Affiliaton analogue being location dependant.

[luke]

Fair warning: I playtested these rules this weekend and I hated them.

Fun!
-L

[Black Spectrum]

Fair warning: I playtested these rules this weekend and I hated them.

Fun!
-L
What? Why? They seem so slick on paper!

[Dwight]

Fair warning: I playtested these rules this weekend and I hated them.
Thanks for the warning, but you can save me some time, bandwidth, and typing if you could give a quick paragraph breakdown. Inquiring minds want to know! What part of them sucked? In which way? Were the Obs too high for the dice? Durations didn't mesh well? School of Magic sucked? Too many dice? What about using the Traits themselves, was that OK? Were Consequences cumbersome or game slowing (a concern I had)? The lack of input from the target on the outcome was an issue? They players themselves just weren't juiced up by it?

Or is it just that your NPCs got beat up and then you missed by 1 success on a bunch of rolls? ;)

[Iskander]

That's a good sign, right, Luke?

[Kaare Berg]

Fair warning: I playtested these rules this weekend and I hated them

Which means Luke got his ass hamded to him by rampant players taking the free-wheeling nature of these here rules and tatooing their names on said ass, before gently giftwrapping it in Ha-HA! paper.

[luke]

If only.

[zipht]

Fair warning: I playtested these rules this weekend and I hated them.


I played the wizard in that demo..

The Art of Sorcery was very cool, but I think I spent too much time thinking up spells, when I should have been helping the group. It's not an easy system to just pick up and run with, a player really needs to focus in on what they really want to use this system.

For example at one point I wanted over hear a conversation, what I should have done is given myself a bonus to Perception. Instead I tried and give myself an trait.. and failed on that sorcery roll, but got the perception roll..

Another thing I underrated was giving curses as character traits. I should have given, some NPC's a sleepy or bored trait.

or had them make Steel checks..

I think if anything that playtest was shaded by me having given a shiny new toy and not really knowing what to do with it.

I wish I had read up on these rules as then I may have had an idea or two before play. I hadnt been keepin up with the forums of late. Example spells would have helped a lot.

zipht aka Nick

Luke I also have some comments I wanted to share about the Demo, just play related stuff not about da story, should I just PM ya with that?

[Dwight]

For example at one point I wanted over hear a conversation, what I should have done is given myself a bonus to Perception. Instead I tried and give myself an trait.. and failed on that sorcery roll...
Which Trait did you attempt? What was the Ob? What were the sources of your dice?

[luke]

Nick,
Thanks for your comments. You're certainly not at fault. I simply didn't like the kind of decisions that those rules engendered. The rules seem solid and your instincts seem solid, but something was (really) missing.

As for the comments, feel free to PM them to me. I'm going to scrap the scenario and start over AGAIN.

-L

[Kaare Berg]

I simply didn't like the kind of decisions that those rules engendered.

And what kind of descisions was that?

Seriously.

[Dwight]

The rules seem solid and your instincts seem solid, but something was (really) missing.
Elder Gods? (http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?p=34534) That always *pow* takes things up a notch.

[zipht]

Which Trait did you attempt? What was the Ob? What were the sources of your dice?

I tried to give myself Ear for Voices (pg 275 CB). that is a 3pt trait. So the spell's Ob was: +0 for self, +0 for one test +1 to add a trait +3 for that trait. total Ob for Incantation of psychic Hearing Ob 4. I could have made it with the 6 dice I had..

I should have just added 3 dice to my Perception for a 3 Ob, or added a call on trait for hearing.. another 3 Ob spell.

or in another situation I was thinking about some NPC's where standing watch, we had the jump on them, I was thinking about giveing them a trait like bored or sleepy both would be a 4 Ob spell. +0 for next test +1 for other +2 for curse +1 for character trait.

At first I was thinking of giving them a Phobia but that's a 3 pt trait.. a 5 Ob curse. But the difference between me casting easly spells 2 to 3 Ob, and everything else often 5 Ob+ was alot, I kept hitting that wall. Which made me have to think more..

and lead to me being frustrated with myself is that I was too busy thinking about what spell to cast when I should have been more helpful.

My sources for dice where, my skill in sorcery + my knowledge a school of Magic + a dramatic description bonus die. Which Luke made me work for. :D

So to get the school of magic die, I had to color my description and it had to fall under the umbrella of that school. To get the description bonus I had to first name the spell and then roll play casting the spell. This did led to some neat role play. I do hope that with what ever Luke does with this magic he leaves the dramatic description bonus in, for myself that added a lot to just what the spell was doing.

If I had be reading the forum I would have been less surprised by these rules and may have played better with them.

nick

[Dwight]

At first I was thinking of giving them a Phobia but that's a 3 pt trait.. a 5 Ob curse. But the difference between me casting easly spells 2 to 3 Ob, and everything else often 5 Ob+ was alot, I kept hitting that wall. Which made me have to think more..
I noticed this, sort of a gap in the Obs. I tried halving the point cost for use in the base of the Ob (something I DON'T like putting in rules) the Trait for calculating the base. I also slid the Breadth modifier scale down a bit. (see near the start of the second half of that huge posting I just linked)

I also for now ditched everything BUT Traits, but I added a few EA type powers. Mind you this is a very different flavour of beast, with the direct-damage spells and stuff not really fitting thematically.

and lead to me being frustrated with myself is that I was too busy thinking about what spell to cast when I should have been more helpful.
Here I've added some paper work (BAD!) that might actually help by encouraging you to preselect some Traits (GOOD!) to write down for tracking purposes. See A Soul Stained near the end for that.

My sources for dice where, my skill in sorcery + my knowledge a school of Magic + a dramatic description bonus die. Which Luke made me work for. :D

I do hope that with what ever Luke does with this magic he leaves the dramatic description bonus in, for myself that added a lot to just what the spell was doing.
I liked the sound of that flavour bit too. Made sure to leave it in.


If I had be reading the forum I would have been less surprised by these rules and may have played better with them.
I think the "coming up with the right Trait" is going to be an ongoing thing. Knowing muchless memorizing them all is tough, and they are spread across and throughout a couple books.

[luke]

The point of these rules is that they become more pick-up-and-play friendly. They clearly were not. They sent Nick scrambling and stumbling through the books. The rest of the players were clearly not impressed.

-L

[Dwight]

The point of these rules is that they become more pick-up-and-play friendly. They clearly were not.
Ah, yeah definately have to cut the Traits out then (my fav class of effect :p). They embody the essense of character burning page flipping, and thus are the very anti-thesis of pick-up-and-play friendly.

What do you think of instead just going with +D boons and +Ob banes? Did you see the time Nick spent coming up with florid text as that much a drag on play compared to the payoff there?

[Dwight]

Ah, yeah definately have to cut the Traits out then
I take that back. If you limited it to Character Traits and allow them to make up Ct it makes the page flipping unnecessary because they are just a single adjective each. They don't even get descriptions in the books.

[zipht]

I take that back. If you limited it to Character Traits and allow them to make up Ct it makes the page flipping unnecessary because they are just a single adjective each. They don't even get descriptions in the books.

I have even better..

make Character Traits free.

But limit them to the domain of the school used..

Here is an example:

Zipht's Illusion of Demon Bugs
Target makes a steel check at +1 Ob
Target temporary gains the Character Trait "Frighten of Bugs"

*One target +1 Ob, steel check +1, +0 Ob next test, at +1 disadvantage ob +1 Ob = 3 Ob

----

Fiery Aura
Caster is surrounded by a firey Aura that defects Blows +2 Ob to strike
Caster gain Character Trait "Glows like he is on fire"

*Self +0, +2 for disadvantage ob +2 Ob, till end of fight +1 = 3 Ob

This would let the player give the GM some feedback on what they really want the spell to do. I just dont want to make the guards bored, I want them to be +1 Ob to notice me.

What send me flipping into the books was just that I had see what options I had..

[Kaare Berg]

The point of these rules is that they become more pick-up-and-play friendly. They clearly were not. They sent Nick scrambling and stumbling through the books. The rest of the players were clearly not impressed.

I can see this bombing in my group. With one player in particular pressing his grubby face deeeeeeep into the books only surfacing long enough to start an agrument about a trait which he has creativly interpreted (you should have seen what he did with the Mr. Lee trait once.)

The fix with the character traits seems to do it though.

[Iskander]

Is that just bad table manners? (Sorry, Nick - I exaggerate for effect!)

Scout's Honour: +1 Ob every 10 seconds you spend dicking about. Be prepared or lose the spell.

[zipht]

Is that just bad table manners? (Sorry, Nick - I exaggerate for effect!)


Oh but I agree my scrambling and stumbling through the books wasnt the best thing I could have done.. It didnt add anything to that game.

Unlimted Trait capacity really does make this not pick-up-and-play friendly.

I just got Universalis so I am seeing the world in shades of traits..

I really do like the easy magic, it has the potential to fill in many niches. And now I can't help myself I keep thinking up more spells..

WinterLady's Incantation of a Icey Sheet
Creates a sheet of ice that overs an area, as the caster speaks the Incantation, snow flakes fill the Icey area.
Group makes a + 1 Ob Speed test or fall down
To cast 6 Ob

*+1 disadvantage obstacle +1 Ob, Group +3 Ob, +2 Ob make speed test, +0 single test. = 5 Ob

Zipht's Runes of Might
Bright rune marks are written on a weapon
User of that weapon gains 2 dice when using it
To cast 4 Ob

*+2 Advantage dice +2 Ob, single target +1 Ob, +2 Ob for time = 4 Ob

[luke]

Nick,

You didn't do anything wrong. You weren't a bad player (aside from your bad die rolls, how could you?!). These rules just need some work.

Anyway, don't freak, peeps. I'm not going to trash them (yet). I'm just going to sit and have a think about them.

-L

[hellbender]

Firstly, I am hoping that a second page thread isn't considered too much of a resurrection, I did read the forum guidelines and was teetering on the idea of posting in this thread, while it is only the second page, the last post was also in January.

Secondly, I really liked Brand Robin's inclusion of one of Zothique's deities, being a fan of Smith's cycles that is an excellent nod to an outstanding writer.

And lastly, is the Art of Sorcery getting anywhere? I liked all of the spells presented and will be using many of these in my Burning Wheel campaign and hopefully contributing a few spells of my own to the cause.

[Thor]

We've been playtesting the rules in my A Darkness in Darkmoon Vale game, and also in our Trouble in Hochen con game.

They're very cool with players that are comfortable with the rules and capable of thinking on their feet. For newbies it really clicks for some, while with others it becomes a frustrating slog.

[zipht]

We've been playtesting the rules in my A Darkness in Darkmoon Vale game, and also in our Trouble in Hochen con game.

Nice, I can't wait to see the new version of those rules.

[Sempiternity]

Same here!

Although i opted out of using these rules for my current game (in favour of Spirit Binding), i do expect to use them in the future - i like the Circles-esque mechanics, i guess...

[Archdaimon]

sorry to play the necromancer but any news on this path with sorcery?

[Dwight]

Funny you should mention necromancy!

I assume Art of Sorcery is lying amoung the dusty parts of the Magic Burner drafts. Perhaps discarded, perhaps in playtesting.

However I've actually morphed this germ of an idea into something you can use to play a Lovecraft inspired game (http://www.burningwheel.org/wiki/index.php?title=%22A_Primeval_Peril%22). I still haven't made the changes for the second draft but the first pass went pretty well. They are definately usable and really brought out the feeling I was looking for.

... OK, I've recovered my wiki password. I'll have the second draft done by the end of the week. If you are still interested you should check back then.

[Dwight]

Just an update in the offchance anyone was waiting on my edits, I misplaced the original document so I had to work from the PDF which required me to spend time reformating that I hadn't planned on. I'm through that part and have begun the edits but it'll be later this week before I finish.

[xenomouse]

I'm looking at this for an Earthsea campaign, and the munchkin in me awoke.

My childhood wasted, though epiphany hasted!
Bestow trait (+1 ob) Childhood Prodigy (+2 ob).
Duration: 1 test.

Ob 3, make any skill gray for one test. Can a caster bestow a trait on himself? If so, I would choose... dum duh da... Sorcery. Followed by...

Sorcel smarter, not harder
Bestow advantage dice: +3D (+3 ob)
Duration: Campaign (+4 ob)

Ob 7, get +3D to one skill (Sorcery) for the rest of the campaign. Repeat Child Prodigy, but make it last the campaign. Now you have Gray sorcery +3D bonus for the campaign.

What's to stop a munchkin (like me) from repeatedly taking Child Prodigy? Also, does the trait magic allow custom traits from the Monster Burner? I could just created shading traits at +5 Ob a piece and start evolving into something terrible and new.

Also, could one use Quiescent to start robbing people of traits (wanted or otherwise)? I'm guessing it only applies to lifepath traits.

Could one use Quiescent to rob a dragon of the Dragon Blood trait?

Or use the Transform ability to turn a dragon into a fish for the duration of a campaign?

Something like this from blakkie:


Bitter Taste of Mortality

"An audible gasp fell from Glorn Leafmuncher as he looked down at his hand and saw himself decaying as the rest of living creatures." The sorcerer negates the Essense of the Earth for the Elf for one session.

Base: 2 + 6 (very quick estimate of Trait cost, I'm in a rush out the door)
Duration: uh Session +2
Breadth: Single +1

[luke]

You're not a child.

It'd be like taking the venom trait without fangs.

[xenomouse]

You're not a child.

It'd be like taking the venom trait without fangs.
Actually, I am a large child, but I see your point. One would need to fit the prerequisite of the trait. That makes using the monster burner traits a little more tricky.

However, I'm still curious about the trait burner question: could I create a trait that I find useful and just start giving it to myself repeatedly, or should we stick what's already written?

[luke]

Custom traits are acceptable, but read the Trait Burner carefully. There's a peer review process.

[xenomouse]

Custom traits are acceptable, but read the Trait Burner carefully. There's a peer review process.
Very good point. I think any trait I come up with now will have a +3 PITAP by virtue of its author.

[Drozdal]

Ob 7, get +3D to one skill (Sorcery) for the rest of the campaign.

Once you get out of the safe realm of theory and will be casting OB7 spell in game - suddenly +3 dice to your sorcery for the duration of camaign won't sound like such an awesome idea.

Faced with the consequences of failure (extra powerfull traits or maybe just OB7 Tax test that might cripple or kill you) you'll think twice before "munchkining up" ;)

[hammer_42b]

Hello everybody,


after playing a few sessions with the burning wheel system I have made the following observations that I wish to share. I find the magic system to be quite usable overall, but think it has (in its current form) two major problems.

1) Scalability
2) Number of Spells

# 2 has already been addressed in depth in this forum so I will only suggest a handful of what I call 'utility spells' at the end of this post. However AFICT the issue of scalability has not been addressed so far.

What do I mean by scalability: In general scalability will allow a mage to better fill his (or her) niche while at the same time somewhat mitigating the problem that a mage is terribly resource starved in BW and will likely not have many spells. There are two kinds of scalability. First scalability within spells. Take the White Fire spell for example:

Its Ob 4, takes 3 Actions and does damage of W +2/Success. AOE is 10s of paces.

This spell becomes more useful if the the mage could scale down the 'strength' of the spell like so at casting time:

Ob 3, 3 Actions, Damage W, AOE paces
Ob 2, 2 Actions, Damage 2/3 W, AOE, 1 pace
Ob 1, 1 Action, Dmage 1/3 W, AOE inches

This allows the mage to use the spell for more than just destructive purposes, especially colour (i.e. lighting a camp fire) frightening away people, etc.
This is easily doable for any combat spell and a few non-combat spells.

Secondly scalability comes in form of metamagic. The introduction of metamagic would allow for the modification of spells at the expense of a higher Ob. Again this would allow the costumization of spells for the character as well as being able to 'pull things out of the hat' when needed.
Let me demonstrate with the White Fire spell.

Metamagic change elemental type (only electricity or air allowed in this case) +1 Ob, making the base spell Ob 5 instead of 4 and leaving everything else unchanged.

other suggested forms of metamagic:

Metamagic silent spell (+2 Ob) eliminates verbal component

Metamagic still spell (+2 Ob) eliminates somatic component

Centering (+1 Ob, +X Ob) reduces drain by 1 Ob for every additional Ob put on the difficulty of the spell. E.g. the White Fire spell becomes Ob 6, with no other change in the spell effect, but drain is Ob 3 vs. Forte.

Quickened spell (+3 Ob) allows to put a spell on an item with a trigger condition (additional sensor spell may be needed; has to be cast at same time).

Cast your life away (+1 Ob) allows the mage to reduce to take more drain by allowing him to reduce his power dice to absorb any non-resisted drain. If Power drops to 0 the character dies. Power can be recovered by the same rules as Spell sickness.

Other possibilities are obvious and can easily be added later. Metamagic should be learned the same way as a spell.

Let me now give a quick list of spells that I have found to be missing in BW so far:

Any type of pure magic spells such as magic missile,
stun ball, force wall, etc.

Furthermore there are a number of 'utility spells' that allow the mage to get the party where they have to go, such as:

Invisibility
Teleport
Levitation
Fly
Pass Door
Mask (change facial features, i.e. a variant of Shapeshifting)

I am sure other people can come up with more.

So there are my opinions; let me know what you people think.
Regards,

Kevin 'When in doubt - Fireball' Grey

[Dwight]

Something I noticed in passing, Shards is Magic Missle with "better" flavour. The simple answer, if you really want that, is to colour Shards as kinetic force acting on the target itself instead of kinetic force ripping pieces on the surroundings and hurling them at the target. I personally really like the idea of ripping strips out of rock and wood, it's got a great visual. YMMV of course.

I think there are others in your list that are also similarily disguised? I don't have the books handy though at the moment.

...that a mage is terribly resource starved in BW and will likely not have many spells.
Urp!? Sorcerers are badasses dominators with the spell list and spells they already can get. With only 3 LP I can have a Gifted character with 3 or 4 really useful spells and still cover off other things. That's actually a lot of spells in BW, they go a long way. I know because one of my players has one. They contribute their fair share, if not dominate in a lot of situations. Perhaps you haven't seen this within 2 sessions because it wasn't apparent how to do it? Was it your PC? If so maybe you can get some tips on one of the forums down below.

Also if you want to be a super badass with a big spell list write a Belief about learning spells. It gives something to feed the story plus also something to do during "downtime" periods while someone one else is healing wounds or sessions where others don't make it to the game (that's what my Sorcerer player does a lot of).

Sure it's tough and dangerous to become the super badass you want to be. It'll get your character in a real pickle at times. It might just end up killing you trying. Welcome to Burning Wheel. Enjoy. :D



P.S. I take it what you are really asking for is a completely over-the-top magic setting? Or should I say you want something you think is D&D, because you list a lot of stuff that looks like it was ripped right out of 3e and isn't even applicable to Sorcerer magic? Though "stun ball" sounds Shadowrun?

[hammer_42b]

Hi Dwight,


you misunderstand. The idea is not to have ALL of those spells (or metamagics) EASILY available to ONE character. They just need to be available in the SYSTEM. My mage is a pyromancer with 5 LPs. He spent almost all his resources on spells and got 5 of them. Mind you, they are all good spells, but I really wish I had more flexibility on how to use them. This is not so much a matter of being able to blow up stuff, but to express his character and colour through his (lesser) spells or spellmodifications.

Also, I have to strongly disagree with you on the Shard spell. It's a really nice spell, but its no magic missile. And it shouldn't be. It's its own clever idea for a spell. However magic missile (or a BW equivalent) SHOULD exist (I can whip one up fairly fast, using the available rules). Also you completely ignored the fact that nothing like levitation, teleportation, mask or a number of other 'utility-type' spells are currently available as well as the idea of changing the strength of existing spells on the fly.

Which brings me to your assumption that I want an over-the-top mages rule magic system. Not so! I want a FLEXIBLE system that can accomodate any mage from 'Heavy-firepower-pyromancer' to 'Thief-mage' to 'Shadow-intrusion-specialist' to 'Con-man' to 'Jack of all trades'. Additional choices don't automatically make a powermunchkin (and the GM has the last word in these things anyway). I am arguing for more choices not more power.

Of course you are right in your observation, that I blatantly stole the missing bits from D&D and SR4. But you know very well that every magic system ever stole from all over. Stuff would have to be properly be adapted to BW, obviously. As a sidenote: I really like the SR4 magic mechanics; incidentally they are very similar to BW. Also, the D&D magic rules are completely broken beyond repair, HOWEVER they have some really nice spells. Let me remind you, that mediocre mages borrow from other magic systems, while brilliant mages steal ;)

All the best,

KG

[luke]

are these posts about Art Magic?

[Dwight]

My mage is a pyromancer with 5 LPs. He spent almost all his resources on spells and got 5 of them. Mind you, they are all good spells, but I really wish I had more flexibility on how to use them.
I'll bet.


Also, I have to strongly disagree with you on the Shard spell. It's a really nice spell, but its no magic missile.
Outside the colour and maybe the range? Right down to the Destroy Impetus it's the same spell stats, says I.

However magic missile (or a BW equivalent) SHOULD exist (I can whip one up fairly fast, using the available rules).
If you can whip one up quick, then why? To pretend BW proper is D&D? :confused: Go over to the Spark forum and talk to the fellow putting together the Burning THAC0 PDF. His name is Ara Kooser, I forget offhand what his posting alias is. Although I know our group uses Shards for Burning THAC0 anyway because it's hellva lot cooler. ;) That document also already has, for example, Wizard's Door (as usual spell names have been changed to cover the tracks of the guilty ).


Not so! I want a FLEXIBLE system that can accomodate any mage from 'Heavy-firepower-pyromancer' to 'Thief-mage' to 'Shadow-intrusion-specialist' to 'Con-man' to 'Jack of all trades'.
Huh? Sorcery handles that already? Not how you want to, though they do.

The problem, and the reason I suspect you are aiming for an over-the-top magic (remember, relative to other BW characters) even if it's not intentional, is that you talk about mages being "resource starved". But a "flexible" system is going to eat RPS like crazy too (look at the numbers for Practical Magic). Specializing in something like pyro (on only 5 LP) with the flexibility of your list? The amount of RPS, Skill pnts, and Stat pnts your character spent to get that is very likely be the yardstick that Luke would use.

Sorcerers are already typically more powerful than other characters of the same number of LP.

Also, the D&D magic rules are completely broken beyond repair, HOWEVER they have some really nice spells. Let me remind you, that mediocre mages borrow from other magic systems, while brilliant mages steal ;)
Brilliant mages don't steal "broken" POS rules. :D Shadowrun on the other hand I find a much more interesting magic system.

Anyway, you probably should start a new thread in the Spark forum. We are thread hijacking AND flaunting the thread necromancy rules.

EDIT: D'oh! Busted......