First attempt at BW (Van Goten demo spoiler)

[Henri]

Well, I wanted to get a feel for BW in actual play, so last weekend I ran the demo senario Van Goten's Predicament for a few friends.

OMG! Everyone died!

Now I see why they say BW is gritty. I'm used to playing White Wolf where unless you set the difficulties to 9 or 10, competent characters succeed at most things most of the time. Not so in BW, at least when the obstacle modifiers start to stack up.

We had a small party of three adventurers, Gravas, Miles, and Arbel, so I only put a few orcs and the wolf. However, in order to make the wolf less deadly, I didn't give it the ability "shake" and made it use lock like anyone else. Not that it mattered.

Let's see... The characters quickly decided that the villagers weren't going to be of help, and didn't bother talking to them much, so no help from the miller or carpenter, etc. Also, they didn't bother to go around north of the house, even though I told Miles he could see the compost heap and the ditch.

Miles stood outside of the gaping hole and shot arrows at the Night Seeker, who shot arrows back at him. Even though it was late in the day, I said that the sun was behind Miles, which meant it was directly in the orc's eyes, so he was at +2 Ob. So he never hit Miles. But the orc was behing some furniture and also in dim light, so Miles was at +3 Ob to hit him, and with an archery skill of 4, that turns out to be really hard. So they stood there and shot arrows at each other for a while and no one got hurt.

Arbel used the Shards spell to blast splinters in the legioner, which did a couple of superficial wounds, but he cast it so many times that he eventually ran out of forte and collapsed without doing any serious damage to the orc. I am working under the assumption that as you lose forte, you have less dice to resist tax, so that after the first few failed taxed rolls your forte starts to really go down fast. If this is incorrect, someone please let me know. It seems pretty harsh that he knocked himself out and barely hurt the orc at all.

Gravas kicked the door in and charged forward and engaged He Who Bears the Lash. To make it easier, I had the orc use a wip as a weapon (power 2, add 2, VA 0, fast) rather than an axe. Since Gravas is heavily armored and has shield training, the orc couldn't hurt him. But with that helmet on, Gravas's perception is only 3. So he didn't see the wolf sneak up behind him and tackle him. Once on his back, Gravas was at a +2 OB for everything. He tried a couple of times to throw the wolf, but it eventually got 5 lock successes on him and then broke his neck. Similarly to the forte sorcery thing, it seems that once you get locked, you have less dice, so it becomes increasingly easy for your opponent to tighten the lock until you are completely immobilized, and once that happens, if they are strong (like a wolf) they can just snap your neck.

That left only Miles standing by the time the sun set, and then all four orcs and the wolf rushed out of the house directly at him and we faded to black...

So, is this senario meant to be really hard? Or did I make it too hard?
Or did my players just not play well, due to not having a good understanding of the system?

[Kublai]

Miles stood outside of the gaping hole and shot arrows at the Night Seeker, who shot arrows back at him. Even though it was late in the day, I said that the sun was behind Miles, which meant it was directly in the orc's eyes, so he was at +2 Ob. So he never hit Miles. But the orc was behing some furniture and also in dim light, so Miles was at +3 Ob to hit him, and with an archery skill of 4, that turns out to be really hard. So they stood there and shot arrows at each other for a while and no one got hurt.

Did you use the Aiming rules? The archers could've decreased their Obstacles by half their Perception!


Arbel used the Shards spell to blast splinters in the legioner, which did a couple of superficial wounds, but he cast it so many times that he eventually ran out of forte and collapsed without doing any serious damage to the orc. I am working under the assumption that as you lose forte, you have less dice to resist tax, so that after the first few failed taxed rolls your forte starts to really go down fast. If this is incorrect, someone please let me know. It seems pretty harsh that he knocked himself out and barely hurt the orc at all.

Shards ain't no killer, that's for sure! It is best used to give the opponents that all important +1 Ob before engaging them in melee. It's also great for destroying parts of weapons, like spear shafts, bows, xbows, and other wooden parts. It is also very useful for destroying those shutters which keep out the sunlight!

As for Forte, you played it exactly right. Sorcerers must avoid failing Tax tests at all costs. This can be done by casting Patiently and Carefully. But even then, you still need to roll at least one success!


Similarly to the forte sorcery thing, it seems that once you get locked, you have less dice, so it becomes increasingly easy for your opponent to tighten the lock until you are completely immobilized, and once that happens, if they are strong (like a wolf) they can just snap your neck.

Although you do lose Skill, Stat, and Attribute dice from Locks, you always get your Natural Defences at your full exponent. So even if that wolf had a 3 die Lock on Gravas, Gravas could still resist each further attempt to Lock him with his full Power!


So, is this senario meant to be really hard? Or did I make it too hard? Or did my players just not play well, due to not having a good understanding of the system?

This scenario begins with the orcs at an advantage, yes. They are holed up and any frontal assault is likely to result in casualties. Although it seems there were a couple of rules misunderstandings, I think the majority of the problems came from a lack of a good plan using ALL the resources available, such as the villagers and terrain. But none of that is really important if you all had a good time.

Did you have a good time?

[Henri]

Did you use the Aiming rules? The archers could've decreased their Obstacles by half their Perception!

Ah, no. With so many rules to keep track of, I forgot about aiming. I should have suggested that to the players, if I had though of it.



As for Forte, you played it exactly right. Sorcerers must avoid failing Tax tests at all costs. This can be done by casting Patiently and Carefully. But even then, you still need to roll at least one success!


As with aiming, I forgot about patient casting. I'll have to make sure I point these options out to the group next time.



Although you do lose Skill, Stat, and Attribute dice from Locks, you always get your Natural Defences at your full exponent. So even if that wolf had a 3 die Lock on Gravas, Gravas could still resist each further attempt to Lock him with his full Power!


Ok, that's comforting.



Did you have a good time?

We had a reasonably good time, although we would have had more fun if I had had more fluency with the system and could have made things go more smoothly. But hey, you have to start somewhere, right? There's only one way to learn.

Anyway, thanks for your comments. These will be helpful for the next game.

[Kublai]

Admittedly, Aiming and casting Patiently and Carefully are a little more advanced than the basic rules, as are Combat Stances and Called Shots.

When I give demos at Cons, I begin with the basic moves, no shields, and no stances in the first exchange. Then I add these extras in one at a time in successive exchanges.

Now that you've gone through your basic rules, I bet these extra ones would make all the difference.

Please let us know how the next bout goes! :D

[luke]

We had a reasonably good time, although we would have had more fun if I had had more fluency with the system and could have made things go more smoothly. But hey, you have to start somewhere, right? There's only one way to learn.

Be strong, Henri! You're on the right path.

BW is definitely a bit much to get a handle on the first time you sit down with it. One bit of advice: Go easy on your players, especially in melee and magic. If they are doing basic stuff, have your villains do basic stuff. For example, the wolf didn't have to get inside and lock poor Gravas. He could have simply snapped at him and it would have been terrifying enough for the player.

As your players get more comfortable with the game, start throwing them some curveballs.

good luck, i'd love to hear how it goes next time.
-Luke

[Mad Hatter]

I'm also curious what other systems your group is familiar with. I have had similar experiences with my own system when players who are used to D&D begin play. They really overestimate their own effectiveness, and tragically underestimate the threat an individual enemy represents. BW is rough, and a 1-to-1 fight ratio is important. If your opponents gang up on you, down you go. Smart tactics and working as a group are essential to win.

By the same token, I had the opposite experience recently. I was playing 3rd Edition and the GM marked about a dozen orcs on the board, in front of our four characters. I immediately started to sweat, thinking we were totally screwed. Of course, we beat them easily. I was used to brutal systems like BW where fighting a dozen orcs is suicide with those numbers.

[Henri]

Well, we just had the second run of the demo with a totally different group. This time the pc's totally destroyed the orcs. They killed every one (except the wolf who ran away) and only Quenesh was hurt. When this group saw that the orcs were in the house they immediately thought... hmmm... how do we get the orcs OUT of the house. So Quenesh and Miles snuck around to the north side of the house and got Van Goten to climb down to the edge of the roof and they carried him away from the house. They got shot at by the orcs inside, and Quenesh took an arrow, but he lived. With Van Goten off the roof, they were free to set the thatch on fire and they smoked the orcs out. As the orcs came out, Miles and Quenesh plugged them with arrows while Delmar and Cristop finished them off. Pierre used hindrance to great effect, snapping bowstrings and causing orcs to slip on the frozen icy ground (he had some really lucky rolls, getting as many as 7 successes with only 5 faith dice).

Oh, in response to Mad Hatter's query, I know that in the previous session, the players were thinking that it was D&D because it was adventure fantasy, although at least one of them has played a number of other games.

In tonights group I'm not really sure, I think the experience was mixed. The girl playing Miles had never role-played before, but she did just fine. One of them was a big Shadow Run player, and he said that he thought the games were very similar. I told him to check out Under A Serpent Sun.

[luke]

Nice! A little thinkin goes a long way, which is all that scenario is supposed to demonstrate.

thanks for the posts, henri, and thanks for running the games.

-Luke

[Astros]

I just ran the Van Goten's Prelude demo for my group to get them interested in BW. We had 5 PC's (Arbel, Frank, Dunif, the knight of the red cresent, and the elven ranger).

As they approached and dealt with the toll guard, they soon learned of Von Goten's predicament. The knight immedietly took off on his horse and tried to jump the field walls, failing twice. The ranger went to catch him as well, also failing his initial jump.

The rest of the party walked towards the mass of people, as the two horse riders rode up to the house. The elven ranger got into position first as the knight stopped to talk with the peasants. In an instant the ranger's horse was near death as three arrows pelted it's flank, green ooze dripping from the wound.

This charged the knight and the dwarf forward. The crowd screamed and dispersed as both Frank and Arbel cast magic in their presense. Arbels use of the sight proved informative but his failed perception did not allow him to know too much. Frank continued to pray for saftey, but could not see any orcs (although by this time Von Goten had informed them).

The dwarf sprinted (Slowly) towards one of the shuttered windows and tried to crash through it. He succeeded in breaking the shutters but failed to dive through and instead fell through. The knight charged the same window and tried to jump from his speeding horse into the window. His horse, already having taken 3 arrows during his approach balked at the rush and threw him hard against the wall of the house. The knight ended up crashing to the ground and hesitating for a bit.

The ranger jumped off his wounded horse and tried to hide in the snow, but failed the first time, succeeding on the second. Frank's prayers were finally heard and as she(the player) called upon the blessing of the light to aid her allies a great flash of light appeared in the house for an instant, burning the orcs eyes with the holy light. The orcs were forced to hesistate for an exchange (yes I was nice, but I wanted them to get interested).

The rest of the actions went off in scripts as the PC's waded forward and entered the house. Unfortunetly out of my own stupidity I failed to script actions for the Lasher and Wolf, so I simply removed them because we were running late on time.

The knight took out most of the orcs with the dwarf aiding... "The big Legionare is attempting to get inside, rushing you... Dunif: I let him. :shock: " He proceeded to headbut the crap out of the legionare while the knight worked on the night seekers.

Overall the PC's lived, but learned a valuable lesson about the mortality of characters in BW, as well as the importance of being patient. I think they loved the system overall. Combat took a while, but it was my first attempt at running it, and had 5 new players, so we crawled through alot of learning bumps together.

I am potentially starting a campaing soon, so look for my other thread where I ask for some assistance in that.

[luke]

thanks!

Sounds fun, if a bit harrowing. That gung-ho attitude sure can cause a lot of trouble in BW. Pelting the horses is a great way of clueing in the players to the situation.

Seems like you had a lot of failed attempts at physical acts, some even non-crucial. Can you tell how you handled the wall-leaping, and the diving through the windows? Did you set an obstacle? Did the players just flub?

Also, regarding the Stealth test that the Ranger failed... there is no retesting in BW. In that case, you must enforce the Let It Ride rule and the player must navigate the consequences of his/her actions.

thanks so much for the actual play report! sounds like a lot of fun.
-Luke

[Astros]

As I read, they shoot at the horses first. So thats why they did that, also to clue the players in.

The dwarf flubbed his OB2 speed test by 1. The knight flubbed his OB3 Speed test by 2. Just bad rolling.

I didn't let the ranger re-try to hide right away. He backed up and cowered behind the wall and then used his cameleon elven ability.

I know I probably messed up on alot of things, but the players had fun and we didnt concentrate on the rules that we werent sure on.

-Lance

[adriayna]

thanks!

Sounds fun, if a bit harrowing. That gung-ho attitude sure can cause a lot of trouble in BW. Pelting the horses is a great way of clueing in the players to the situation.

-Luke

Drove me freaking nuts. I was playing the Frank in the demo game. After telling the other players before we started it was a system that encouraged a high degree of RP and was more deadly than they were used to, I thought for sure that they would look to alternative means to solve the problem. But within the first 10 minutes of the game, the Knight still charged in to be the "hero." Not a fault of the demo or the system, just players unwilling to be patient or work as a group.

[luke]

Well, you guys got lucky. There are many stories of players charging that house and coming out the worse for it.

I think Pete could tell you a story about a knight who was eaten by a wolf... of course, it was the 9-yr-old kid's first game of any rpg ever.

-L

[Kublai]

Yeah! That was fun! That little guy wanted to charge THE HOUSE! No, not the orcs inside the house, but the actual house! He wanted to barrel his horse right through the front door. I knew at that point that he was doomed to a terrible and horrible death. Thank God I had the wolf handy! :twisted: