Liminal Game

[Justin in Oz]

I am getting ready to convert a campaign from DnD 3.5 to BW.

I will answer some of the questions posted at the head of this forum. There are seven of us in all. We have mostly been playing together for 10 years or so. We have played and gm’ed each other for ages. We do know each other and socialize outside of playing, some more than others. For example one guy is not out with his mates that he plays pnp roleplaying games. I go to his social events but I don’t blow his cover. For most of the others we blather about games as often as we do about world politics, literature and relationships.

I am getting a bit of resistance from the players. To quote one of the players who was jesting “We fear change” You know that in every jest there is a kernel of truth or people would not be finding it funny in the first place.

My reply to their concerns is I would not be putting forward the changes if I did not think that it would lead to a better game. We have agreed to run a demo game to see how it goes. We are planning on using “The Gift”. We are also going to root this in the game setting and roll with the political consequences of the play.

Once people have an idea about how the game system works they will covert their characters over. After we have played with the system we will then go through and convert the characters. The characters in DnD were 7th and 8th level. My intentions are to make the characters 5 lifepath characters. I am also thinking of allowing them to greyshift one of their skills. In some way I want them to start out heroic.

I am resisting treating the whole exercise as one of Roman conquest. Find out the weak links and the points of resistance. Work on them so that the rest follow. That whole divide and conquer thing. Then I recoil and think “No, these are my mates!”. The other voice reasserts itself “They are acting like a bunch of resistant nannas! Break the weak links off at the knees!”

What do you think? What should I do?

[Glendower]

Why are you converting over to Burning Wheel? I'm asking mostly because I've seen this sort of thing end in tears (I tried to propose a Shadowrun game converted to Primetime Adventures and almost got lynched).

You might get less resistance if you propose a new game, with new characters. This preserves the old characters in the old system, and prevents the pain of trying to convert.

In addition, a new game with new characters will wipe away a lot of the D&D sort of thinking that will cause problems in a Burning Wheel game.

Finally, what you really need is one buddy in that group to help sell the idea of trying out the game. You need to jazz up one other person about Burning Wheel, and have their energy and yours be spent getting the others to try out the game. One vs. Six is not so great, two vs. five is a lot better.

[Justin in Oz]

I feel that burning wheel has a lot to offer.

The game setting is about clash of beliefs shaping reality. This to me is central to burning wheel.

I want to involve the players directly in detailing the setting. I want to use their beliefs to create play.

I do want to continue in the existing setting. The previous characters have gotten more poweful than normal mortals (7th to 8th level). I feel that DnD breaks down as players get more and more doughty. I do not want to have to shift up the power of encounters in the game to challenge them.

The players have been playing these characters for about a year of gaming. It would be a shame to stop.

[luke]

Sheesh, 7 players is a lot for BW. But how about starting a new story, with new characters in the old setting? Sort of a side story. Any of the characters have minions with cool stories you can play out? That's how I introduced BW into the DnD game -- we played students of one of the master martialist characters.

[Kublai]

I would think the conversion would be easy! Do as Abzu did with me! Don't use LPs to convert, but rather the Monster Burner. Be really generous and the whole thing will go down much smoother!

I had a half-orc 9th level-kensai in D+D. He had a Strength of 14, Dexterity 16, Con 16, Intelligence 8, Wisdom 18, and Charisma 9 (I think). He had such kensai powers such as bonuses to Initiative, to hit, and damage, as well as Fearless. His weapon skill was Tae Kwon Do and he was a Bowyer.

He translated to Per B4, Will B8, Agility B5, Speed B6, Power B4, Forte B6. His kensai-ness was translated into being Faithful. His main weapon skill was deemed Grey 6. He got traits Fearless, Lightning Relfexes, Alert, and so forth. He was given Bowyer at B5, plus some skills that I had used often enough to warrant them on my sheet. He was completely over-powered but it won me over hands down.

Also, because I had played that D+D character for so long, he had tons of beliefs and instincts that were simply never written down. For BW, we just talked about it and found it was very easy to create them.

My next BW character was much saner, but I didn't think twice about it. I had been hooked.

[zipht]

I am getting ready to convert a campaign from DnD 3.5 to BW.
[...]
What do you think? What should I do?

Having done a convertion from D&D to burning wheel. My advice is to not do it. Convertions can never have the same feeling as the D&D character.

A better way to introduce Burning Wheel would be to run a short adventure with premade characters. I would burnup several 4 lifepath characters, you know these guys so you should be able to burn two or so characters they may like.

Have two of the beliefs done for them, then as a group work on the last one to tie the group together..

It has been my observation that while most players get beliefs, they dont always Get them, as in role-play them, and achieving them as a goal.

Here is some good stuff from the wiki..

check out Thor's workshop on runing BW the Old School Way
http://burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?p=31855

readup on the Belief workshop
http://www.burningwheel.org/wiki/index.php?title=Belief_workshop

[sanjwise]

Kublai's point is awesome. The Monster Burner would do just fine.

Also, if your players are Elves, then don't worry. BW Elves are crazy!

One thing...it really depends on the style of Dnd game you play. I think throughout most of my late twenties I was really just a Burning Wheeler playing D&d. All of our games were low magic, intense scenarios without all of the monsters and treasure that you typical expect from a DnD game. Most outsiders found our games so boring...but we loved it!

So - if your group's style of play is more low key - which I'd guess is the case when, after a year of play you're players are only at level 8 - it should be no problem. It should be enilghtening, rewarding and liberating!

I've found that once players understand the reward mechanism in BW, Artha - BITS etc., there's no going back. Its way better than getting experience points! And although raising a level is so cool cause you suddenly learn so many new things...its always a little fake isn't it? very boring in my opinion. Skill - stat advancement is much more rewarding IMO in BW.

Have fun!
Sanj

[Justin in Oz]

First off, thanks for all of your advice.

I reckon I will go the route of doing a conversion of the characters as they stand rather than doing the "x number of life paths" thing.

I will keep you posted on how things go.

[McShane]

Hiya Justin,

I know your group, and I know what you are trying to do (I'm not stalking, we just have a lot of mutual friends). I would agree with what others have said - try to re-create the spirit of the characters using Monster Burner, or go with new characters on a parallel campaign. And yes, 6 players is a lot, especially when none of them have played more than 1 session of BW before. I have run and played a little, and it is hard work with more than 4. Knowing most of your players though, I think it'd be worth it if they can be brought around to the idea.

Might it be worth having some of them come along to a session and see how it all works? Or running a session or two, perhaps the demo scenarios, to show them how it goes?

Simon