Discussion: Axe Orc vs. Spear Bannerman

[Tobias]

Here we can discuss the fight between Jake's Orc and my bannerman.

One question: what are the current rules on half-armor for legs and arms again? (With chainmail, in this case?)

[Verrain]

pg 185-186 in the book.

Instead of 4D protection you get 2D protection on the arms and legs, instead of -1D to Speed and Speed based skills for the leggings you get +1Ob, instead of +2Ob to Agility based tests for the arm pieces you have no penalty.

[Tobias]

hmmm, +2ob for spear use? damn. I guess I'd be going for half on both, then. I'll read up on it myself, thanks for the reference.

[Mirdan]

Aren't weapon and brawling skills exempt from the obstacle penalty (p.185, brown book)?

[Verrain]

Yes they are. My bad for not explicitly mentioning that.

[Tobias]

Ah, so, my spearfighter would probably want half-legs (since keeping optimal positioning is so highly important), but go for full-arms? And then 'offer' the head as default hit location for the opponent? (since it would take 2 sucs to shift to the legs).

[Jake Norwood]

Yup, that looks right to me.

[Tobias]

Allright then, we're on! Your Orc looks mean, Jake, but it will be a pleasure poking at him and scratching that armor. :)

Oh, and a light axe is a 'Long' weapon? That's cool with me (since it makes my shield-wielding dwarves that much tougher as well), but it means my dummy elven spearfighter vs. dwarven tank solo fights of over a year ago might've been quite different, because contrary to your experiences, my fights were dominated by the maneuvrability advantage - which makes this all the more interesting, since losing that advantage in the current fight will mean absolute annihilation for my spearman (I expect).

[Tobias]

Hmm, I'm not getting something here.

In the last starting positioning test/volley, I didn't factor in the +1 ob from half-leggings. Which doesn't matter (IIRC), since I won those by a fair margin, but half leggings is +1 ob to speed based tests (including positioning), where full leggings is -1d.

Doesn't that actually make life HARDER when you have half-leggings?

Say I have speed 4. I can expect 2 sucs. If I have half-leggings, I reduce that by 1 due to the +1 ob. If I have full leggings, I have 3 (speed)dice instead, so I can expect 1.5 sucs.

What am I doing wrong here?

[Thor Olavsrud]

The -1D to Speed can also affect your Reflexes, which is nasty. +1 Ob doesn't.

[Verrain]

Your math is absolutely correct. What you are missing, (not that this would effect your particular character) is that -1D for full leggings causes you to recalculate your Reflexes using the reduced speed. So for many characters the choice is between easier speed tests but reduced actions per exchange vs +1Ob to speed tests but full actions per exchange.

With your character being able to lose a speed and keep your full reflexes, I guess full leggings would have been the way to go after all.

[Tobias]

Ah. I did notice the re-factoring of reflexes, but noticed it had no effect for me - for others, of course, you're right, it might make a difference.

Ok then! Since both Jake and I missed that but of math (at least, I did), Jake, do you mind if have full leggings anyway? It doesn't matter for the initial positioning or anything up to this point, so I'm going to go with that for now.

[Jake Norwood]

LOL, seeing as I'm not doing so well at the moment I'm tempted to tell you to eat it...but sure, no problem. Full legs it is.

Jake

[Tobias]

:) Thanks. At least you got another close opportunity back for that.

Man, those Elven Spearfighters with their spears (page 112) are wicked!

[TimP]

Can I get ups? I'd love to take on the winner with my duelist, Bohemond (http://burningwheel.org/forum/showpost.php?p=35780&postcount=25).

Tim

[Jake Norwood]

I'm game, if I win.

Hell, even if I don't.

Jake

[TimP]

I'm game, if I win.

Hell, even if I don't.

Jake

Awesome: done deal. Of course, if your orc dies, you'll have to make up another character, 'cause he'll be dead, and stuff.

Tim

[Jake Norwood]

I'll just burn almost the same orc ;)

Jake

[TimP]

I'll just burn almost the same orc ;)

Jake


He Who Shines Under the Moon and Cleaves the Heads of His Enemies with Little Axe, Jr.? :D

[Jake Norwood]

I'm thinking something more along the lines of He who Takes the Heads of Dwarves with Their Own Glistening Axe...hehehehehhe...

Of course, that's only if I die. And the poll has spoken. I'm going to win.

As soon as I can close range, dammit.

Jake

[Tobias]

statistically, you'll close someday. probably too soon. :)

Sure, I'll take the duelist if I win.

[luke]

Some suggestions: Beat and Bind, Jake! He's tearing you apart! Also, Counterstrike works even if you are outside your current striking distance.. (BW, Page 147.) Consider that your successful Counterstrike creates an opening for you to strike into before your opponent can regain his wits. Of course, then Tobias can start using Feint...

-L

[Tobias]

Hey, don't be giving away the things I was fearing!

Beat and Bind was my fear, actually. So counter-strike works outside your current distance? Damn. And here's me already having scripted exchange 3. Doom on me...

[Jake Norwood]

Some suggestions: Beat and Bind, Jake! He's tearing you apart! Also, Counterstrike works even if you are outside your current striking distance.. (BW, Page 147.) Consider that your successful Counterstrike creates an opening for you to strike into before your opponent can regain his wits. Of course, then Tobias can start using Feint...

-L

Whoa...so what's the Ob penalty, then? Don't say 0, 'cause I'm sure the +1 Ob from Lunging is still in effect...

But I see light...

BTW, Luke, the more I play with BW's Fight! system (and it's endless subtelties), the more I'm impressed.

Jake

[luke]

I'm glad you like it.

Anyway, as listed, the Counterstrike vs Out of Striking Distance option doesn't ascribe a penalty to the attack half. That's an oversight, I know. Technically, this is something that'd have to be called by the group -- 'cause you gotta play by the book. I'm certainly not the GM for these fights, so it's up to you and Tob to determine.

-L

[Yagathai]

It makes more sense if the attacker is attacking with natural weapons -- if you're swinging your fist or tail or tarsi or whatever into my face, I should be able to take a swing at it.

If you're trying to hit me with a sword I counterstrike you with my dagger, well, that's a bit trickier.

If you've got an 8-foot spear and I've got brass knuckles...

[luke]

Well, the characters aren't static. In my mind, I could make sense out of any of those combinations.

[Yagathai]

Sure, but in the case of spear vs. knucks, it would be a lot harder. An ob penalty for the differences in weapon length, maybe?

[Verrain]

Well, I do hate to disagree with the creator of the game, but I'm not seeing where the attack portion of counterstrike gets to ignore distance.

pg 147 specifically reads "A character who is outside of his striking distance may not Strike, Great Strike, Charge, Feint, Push, Lock or Throw his opponent. He may defend from his opponent's advances with Avoid, Block, and Counterstrike."

Moreover on page 157 under Counterstrike it reads, "The counter or riposte dice are rolled as a standard Strike."

It certainly reads like the strike portion of a counterstrike should be treated as a standard Strike action and thus the person out of range is out of luck.

[Jake Norwood]

That's certainly how I read it. On the other hand I'd be okay with a +2ob penalty, on the justification that a counterstrike is an attack against an opponent who has just extended himself in an attack.

It's Uberlauffen, for you Kunst des Fechtens bretheren out there.

Jake

[Kublai]

It certainly reads like the strike portion of a counterstrike should be treated as a standard Strike action and thus the person out of range is out of luck.

This is how I like to play it. Defende sure, strike no.

[luke]

Drifters!

[luke]

Regarding the Beat and Bind. If Jake is successful while you're setting your GS, Tobias, don't forget to take the +1 Ob to your test to Strike.

-L

[Jake Norwood]

Drifters!

So you can strike from out of range using a counterstrike without penalty, then?

Jake

[Tobias]

Regarding the Beat and Bind. If Jake is successful while you're setting your GS, Tobias, don't forget to take the +1 Ob to your test to Strike.

-L

I did, I think.

[Jake Norwood]

Hey (this might be showing my hand), but I've got a Disarm question.

Can you perform a Disarm from Outside? If so, is there an Ob penalty?

Jake

[Tobias]

If you can beat & bind (and you can!), I'd say Disarm is fine as well.

And you're in lunging, so that should be no problem.

I've got a counterstrike question for the crew, though: if you're outside and script a counterstrike, what ob do you take for range for the strike portion?

[Kublai]

See, I don't think you'd be allowed the Strike part of a Counterstrike at all!

From the outside, I don't think you should be allowed to Disarm, either.

Beat & Bind makes sense as you're smacking away the tip of the weapon as it jabs at you.

[luke]

You executed the Beat and Bind and subsequent position perfectly, guys. Was a pleasure to watch. I'm on the edge of my seat!

[Jake Norwood]

I actually agree with you on the Counterstrike. Disarm is a little harder, although I have to admit that you never really disarm a weapon, you strip the hand holding it; it's pretty hard to disarm a guy from that far out, though if you can touch his weapon you could, theoretically, take if from him. Theoretically. At the least you could immobilize it (which is really just Beat and Bind, I suppose).

Here's a question. When you Beat and Bind, do you take range penalties at all? Is it "free" at lunging, too?


Jake

[Jake Norwood]

You executed the Beat and Bind and subsequent position perfectly, guys. Was a pleasure to watch. I'm on the edge of my seat!

This fight is pretty intense, actually. I'm waaay diggin' it. And the forced color that FoRKs bring...awesome.

Jake

[Iskander]

I'd allow the strike of the counter-strike. Grab the business end of the spear, yank forward, and jab the butt into the puny human's face.

[luke]

Jake, I'm afraid you failed that last armor test. All armor tests start at Ob 1. VA is an Ob penalty to the roll. Thus your Ob against that Great Strike was (1+VA 2) 3.

Take your wound and make your Steel test, my friend.

[Jake Norwood]

D'oh, so I did. I'll go correct that.

Jake

[Jake Norwood]

I'm blocking against your beat and bind with all effort into the defense, so the defense dice are my skill + 5d for the block at +2ob (agg stance) = 10 d= 6,3,3,3,4,5,4,4,1,1 = 4s! (not striking, so I think not getting the +1 for moving quickly from withdraw?). So Beat&Bind wins by one ...

Not that it would have saved me here, but I thought that Moving Quickly modifiers applied regardless of action? Am I off.

On a similar note, I assume that Range Disadvantages only apply to attacks? Or is it only to strikes? This ties into the counterstrike question as well, as to whether or not that's allowed from outside, since it's technically a defense, but it's still a strike.

Jake

[luke]

Yah, Disadvantages apply to Strikes. Also, Moving Quickly disad applies to all actions for the volley.

Hey Jake, whatever happen to He Who Shines' shield? Shouldn't you have got some blocking dice somewhere in there when you were Striking?

-L

[Tobias]

I think Jake stop thinking about blocks whn I started Great Striking all the time.

Jake, perhaps we messed up that last exchange.. Your reflexes go down by 2 as well from that midi. But let's keep the exchange as is, you may need to rescript E5, though?

[Jake Norwood]

Hey Jake, whatever happen to He Who Shines' shield? Shouldn't you have got some blocking dice somewhere in there when you were Striking?

-L


I'm glad you brought that up, Luke, 'cause I had meant to ask but forgot. When using a shield and performing a Strike is it automatically a Block-and-Strike? I assume you at least need to declare it, so that would be my bad there. Also, it would appear that a Block and Strike, unlike a counterstrike, does not need at least one die (other than the shield dice) in the blocking pool? I had assumed that it would take a minimum of one die away from me on that block, and I needed everything I could to hit. If, OTOH, I get those shield dice automatically by just declaring my strike a "block and strike," with no requirement to allocate any non-shield dice, then I'm definitely cheating myself here.

I think Jake stop thinking about blocks whn I started Great Striking all the time.

Jake, perhaps we messed up that last exchange.. Your reflexes go down by 2 as well from that midi. But let's keep the exchange as is, you may need to rescript E5, though?

I didn't stop thinking about them--I just didn't think that I could spare the dice, although it appears that maybe I didn't have to. As for reflexes going down...yeah, I messed that up. Totally forgot about that.

That really makes wounds nasty, doesn't it?

Also, if you have only, say, 2 actions in an exchange, do you only get to position twice as well, or do you always get to position if you're not hesitating, since it's a non-action action?

Jake

[Tobias]

Well, you can't Block a Great Strike, is what I was trying to say (badly).

Yes, Wounds are really nasty. I now realise I should've fought differently, to take that into account - I should've hit you with the beak initially to get the incidental wound in on you ASAP - putting the opponent at +1 ob is fricking good.

Afaik, you can still maneuver/position on a volley where you have no actions.

[Jake Norwood]

I think that shields can block Great Strikes.

Also, looking at wounds, you get triple-punished, which is pretty vicious.

1. You lose dice on your actions, stats, skills, etc.

2. You will (probably, unless you're He Who Shines) hesitate, losing a bunch of actions immediately

3. You permanently (for the duration of the fight, at least) lose a number of actions equal to the number of dice lost, since that will yank your reflexes down by that number

On top of that, I assume that 2 and 3 compound, so that if you lose -2D, then hesitate for 3 actions (that's been very common in our games), you lose what equals out to 5!!! actions immediately, which will wipe out an average of two full exchanges or more with an average character, then you're down 2 per exhange until you recover...but of course by then you're toast, since you've just stood there and bled for 2 or more exhanges!!! Holy crap!!!

Light wounds aren't that light and midi wounds aren't that midi...it seems to me that the death spiral is sooo steep that any wound level past Superficial will end the fight, meaning that any granularity past a Light wound is superfluous.

Is that how it generally plays out? It occured to me that I haven't been enforcing #3 in my games and playtests (mostly because I just overlooked it).

Jake

[Tobias]

P. 159 of the rulebook states Great Strikes cannot be blocked - am I missing some other statement somewhere else?

And yes, Wounds are vicious. Basically, if you take anything Midi or higher, you better start thinking about how you want to get out of the fight - or die.

(Is my experience - perhaps some other experts have ways out).

[Verrain]

This is why people save up Artha for fight scenes, and why Burning Wheel specifies starting a Fight only when it truly means something. This is also why Run Screaming is an option for Hesitation. :)

[Tobias]

Hey, this is the Arena! It ALWAYS means something. :)

[Jake Norwood]

P. 159 of the rulebook states Great Strikes cannot be blocked - am I missing some other statement somewhere else?


Check the shield rules. I don't have my book at the moment, but I'm 85% sure it's in there.

Jake

[TimP]

Check the shield rules. I don't have my book at the moment, but I'm 85% sure it's in there.

Jake

Shields can definitely block Great Strikes. Page 187, about 3/4 of the way down the page.

[luke]

1) BW Page 187: Shields may block Great Strikes.

2) Any Strike with Shield Training may be a Block-and-Strike. It'd be nice of you to declare it, but even so, it doesn't matter. You always get access to your Shield dice.

3) Injuries are supposed to be fight enders. (All of Jake's points are correct.) However, I've seen people come back and win fights with even Severe wounds.

4) If you're not acting in a volley, you may not position.

[Verrain]

I can't believe I'm the only one that voted for the Bannerman to win this one. Well done, Tobias!

[TimP]

I can't believe I'm the only one that voted for the Bannerman to win this one. Well done, Tobias!

Yeah, I really thought that Kurt would get pwned. I guess this fight proves that positioning rules, huh?

Jake, you said you'd take on my duelist, win or lose, before Tobias weighed in, so... we're up next. Technically your orc didn't die, so I guess you could use him again. If you think it wise. ;)

[Tobias]

Allright.... page 187 proves you right! Damn, and here I thought I had just found a smart way to neutralise your shield. Seems really silly to write the exception to a (this) rule in a place other than the (this) rule, though!

Lol - three crossposts as I 'preview' my post.

Verrain - thanks! Comes from your experience as a positioning-dominator, I think, which is what I was trying to achieve here as well. I votes for the Orc myself, though. :)

Luke - thanks for that clarification on point 4. The Block-and-strike (point 2)would/could REALLY have made a difference in this fight, I think (although I'd have the count the number of simultaneous strikes Jake and I scripted to be sure - perhaps my strikes landed on other actions, or unopposed)

My next post will be about my strategy going in and as it developed.

[Tobias]

Jake, you said you'd take on my duelist, win or lose, before Tobias weighed in, so... we're up next. Technically your orc didn't die, so I guess you could use him again. If you think it wise. ;)

He's kinda dinged up at the moment. Jake needs to roll his recovery first! ;)

[TimP]

He's kinda dinged up at the moment. Jake needs to roll his recovery first! ;)

I just can't believe the king's own bannerman let a foul orc live to fight another day! ;)

[luke]

Jake could have won that fight! It was an even match and Tob played it very smartly.

If I were serious about winning, I'd have used my first four actions thusly:
V1: Close, Agg Stance, Block-and-Strike
V2: Close, Beat (stance to position)
V3: Close, Tackle (Screw the Axe, let's seem him position against my claws and fangs!)

This would have netted me +4D to Charge. +1D for the action, +1D cause I closed on a previously volley and +2D for my stance. It would have also cost the spearman 1D of positioning due to the Beat (and hopefully protected me with a +1 Ob penalty to him).

You'd have to be rolling like Jake to fail that one! ;)

-L

[Tobias]

That seems scary!

So, if you were playing the bannerman, and you expected your opponent to come at you with something like you just showed us, how would you defend yourself at such a deathrush?

[Verrain]

Well, Charge/Tackle always has to happen in the first action of a volley and Avoid adds to your natural defenses against a charge. So scripting Avoids as your first action until he charges and fails allowing you to pounce on him while hesitating is one way to go.

[luke]

Defensive stance, Avoid! But you never know when the freight train's a-coming, so you really just have to hope!

-L

[Tobias]

Ok, blending in defense would likely work, also good to keep your opponent guessing anyway. But being forced on the defensive like that seems like a lsoing proposition in the long term, unless you can indeed exploit the hesitation.

Anyway, on to my promised post about my plans for this fight:

1. Get the positioning advantage through sprinting training, a longest weapons, and as high a speed/reflexes I could afford. Bummers here were that Jake also picked up sprinting training, and that the light axe isn't short, but long.

2. Get a beak, since Jake had previously extollled on the virtues of armor, I wanted to prove a way to neutralize that and stick him with +1 ob.

3. For putting the hurt on, pick an armor location and keep plugging away at it to soften it up. The chest is the easiest to consistently hit, so I went for that, forgetting that it starts with +1d.

4. Fully expect the orc to hurt me with the first hit that actually connects. Pick gloryhound to compensate for the hesitation, and have at least 5 power to execute the charge. If the orc hits, he's too close anyway, so I won't have to charge through too many positions.

5. Fiddle with half-leggings and half-arms to maximise mobility, that didn't turn out too useable.

6. Try to get a good age for high stats, find a build that would have reasonable color for a spear.

7. Hope Jake doesn't burn up something from great and black. ;)

[Yagathai]

I've got two different elf spearfighters sitting around here somewhere, if anyone wants to give it a go.

[Tobias]

Elven spearfighters make Kurt look like a toddler with a pointy stick. Running tests solo at home, the elf pwnd the dwarf opponent repeatedly - although I didn't script things like Luke's example exchange back then.

[Yagathai]

OK. You take an elf spearfighter and I'll take a dwarf, if you want. I'm always down for a challenge. =)

[Yagathai]

So, how 'bout it, Tobias? My Dwarf against your Bannerman?

[Tobias]

sorry for the delay - it,s evening here and I was out climbing.

I have to decline - I have 2 open arrangements now, gotta do those first

[Yagathai]

Climbing? I didn't know you were a shepherd.

[TimP]

I'll take you one with a knight (or maybe a squire), Yag.

[Yagathai]

Your call. How many LPs? 4 or 5?

[TimP]

Your call. How many LPs? 4 or 5?
Four. I'm doing B.Noble, Page, Young Lady, Squire.

[TimP]

I'll forego having a mount, too.

[Yagathai]

Ah, Young Lady for the extra skill points. Very nice.

I'll post the dwarf tomorrow.

[TimP]

Ah, Young Lady for the extra skill points. Very nice.


That, and the RPs.

[Jake Norwood]

Not much time. More to add tomorrow.

First, though, a few observations:

1) I love the spear. I thought that, by and large, this was as frustrating as fighting a spear really is. Very nice.

2) That -1 Speed from my chainmail kicked my ass. I though sprinting training would cover it, but apparently so did Tobias. Also, I expected (erroneously) to start in his optimal, not at lunging. That was the best move of Tobias' entire fight, IMO.

3) Luke--the Tackle!--I wanted to use it so badly, and for some reason thought you couldn't do it from outside. Then, when I re-read the rules (it was too late in the fight at that point) as I searched for options, I realized how wrong I was. My follow-on plan, after Gritting my Teeth and all of that, would have been exactly what Luke suggested for a strategy. Exactly! Makes me feel good.

4) This is, hands down, the best "school" on BW combat you could probably get. I'm very impressed.

5) Verrain, who voted against me, is in my play group. Traitor! Traitor!

More to follow when I've got more time.

Jake

[Verrain]

Yeah, I'm going to pay for that in a few weeks aren't I? *chuckle* Not my fault you brought an axe to a spear fight. ;)