Spider vs. Troll discussion thread

[Yagathai]

Well, Arena combat is typically limited to 4-LP characters, but since Trolls are prohibited anyway, and Verrain's spider has 6-LPs, I give you:

Character Name: Tiny Toeless-Huggins

Concept: A surprisingly small troll what gets very, very hungry. Tiny looks like a 7-foot moss-covered rock, except with horns and claws and way too much drool.

Lifepaths: Born to the Dark, Dwarf-Hunter, Dread Stone, Mine-Haunt, to Pit, Ironshield, Bellower

Age: 78

Stats: Pe:4 Wi:4 Ag:4 Sp:4 Po:8 Fo:7

Attributes:
Re:4
Ste:7
He:6
MW:14
Hesitation:3
Circles:1
Resources: 0

PTGS:
Su:4 Li:8 Mi:11 Se:12 Tr:13 Mo:14

Skills:
Dwarf-wise 2
Camouflage 4
Shield-training
Torture 2
Brawling 6
Intimidation 4
Food-wise 2

Gear:
Rags
Troll Shoes
Black Iron Shield

Weapon Stats + IMS:

Fist: Pow 8, Add 2, VA -, Fast, Short
I: 4 M: 8 S: 12
Fanged Bite: Pow 9, Add 2, VA -, Slow, Short
I:5 M:9 S:13
Horns: Pow 11, Add 2, VA 2, Unwieldy, only usable during charge
I:6 M: 11 S: 16
Shield-edge: Pow 11, VA 1, Add 2, Slow, Short
I: 6 M: 11 S: 16

Reputations:
1D: Small but hungry. He ate his own da'!

Relationships:
Mrs. Toeless-Huggins, Troll Wife (Romantic, Hateful (it's complicated))

Traits:
All Troll common traits plus:
Stubborn
Unflinching
Where There's A Whip...
Horns
Stone Skin
Troll Savant

Beliefs:
- Mrs. Huggins is the only troll-wife for me, and I will never leave her. Any that try to take her away will be smashed and eaten!
- I may be small, but I will prove I am not weak. Any who defy me will be smashed and eaten!
- The caves belong only to the trolls. All interlopers will be smashed and eaten!

Instincts:
- The bigger they are, the more there is to eat. Attack the biggest firstest.
- It's more fun if they're still wriggling. Always eat the freshest firstest.
- Nobody expects a rock to smash and eat them. Pretend to be a rock before a fight, uh, firstest.

[Tobias]

Avenge me, o rock-in-a-puddle!

[Yagathai]

I'll do my best Tobias.

Verrain, how do you want to start this off? Ideally (for me), I'd like to start with your Observation vs. my Camouflage (see my third instinct).

[Verrain]

For completeness, here is Eclavdra's stats.

Eclavdra, the Untamed
She follows the Masters of Eight on her own terms

Age: 30

Lifepaths: Broodling, Wall-Crawler, Stalker, Strand-Hunter, Devourer, Hunter-Seeker

Circles: 2
Resources: 0

Affiliations:

Relations: Intermediate Thormak, Master of Eight

Wi: 5
Pe: 5(6)

Ag: 6
Sp: 6
Po: 4
Fo: 5

Health: 4
MW: 11 (4,7,8,9,10,11)
Reflexes: 6
Steel: 6
Hesitation 5

Skills:

Climbing B4
Stealthy B4
Male-wise B3
Snares B3
Lariat B6
Brawling B6
Intimidation B5
Interrogation B6
Throwing B3

Gear: Silk Net

Traits:
All Common Spider Traits
Middling Stature
Vile Language
Chitinous
Strand Runner
Single-minded
Patience
Elongated Forelegs
High Speech

Beliefs:
- All but spider kind is prey, I shall devour the Masters of Eight at my leisure.
- These caves are home to Spider kind. The trolls must be driven out.
- The path to strength is to cull the weak, I shall hunt and kill all weak males.

Instincts:
- Drop a drag line.
- Always have a lariat ready.
- Always have a net ready.

----

Well, the last thing I want to do is give your already beefy troll an advantage but I'll go with that scenario. I seem to recall that spiders can use their Perception as Observation for such tests. Could someone verify that for me?

[Yagathai]

Sorry, don't keep my MoBu here at work.

[Yagathai]

Feh. This is taking too long. Forget the camouflage check. Let's do this the old-fashioned way: Positioning at 20 paces!

I think it's my 4 dice to your 8, Verrain, unless you don't intend to position using your net.

[Verrain]

I will be positioning with the Net but as I am home I now know that it would be Camouflage vs Perception like Stealthy vs Observation so if you wish to use that to determine starting conditions, I'm game.

[Yagathai]

Sure. What are the stakes? Winner gets to pick positioning, no roll?
That doesn't really seem as good for you as it does for me, but I can't come up with any other plausible alternative.

[Verrain]

Well the only other possibilities I could think of were to let it be a linked test for the positioning test or to have a successful test for you force the spider to make a surprise Steel test.

I am also willing to let the test determine initial positioning. I am confident of my Spider's ability to scramble back out of danger if need be.

[Yagathai]

I like the idea of the Steel test -- because if you flub it, I get to determine positioning anyway. Extra successes add to the ob of your Steel test, yes?

Let's do it.

[Verrain]

Done. Roll your dice in the fight thread and I shall do the same.

[Yagathai]

Well, that was anticlimactic. Nobody wins. So... straight positioning, then?

[Verrain]

Yep.

[Yagathai]

And it begins!

[Yagathai]

Incidentally, what dice roller are you using? I'm using the one at Irony Games http://www.irony.com/igroll.html.

They've also got a nifty one that lets you email the results to you and your partner, in case anyone is worried about the trust factor.

Though you shouldn't be. This is about fun, right?

[Verrain]

I am using the irony roller as well. And if I thought you would cheat, I would not have accepted the duel. :) What stats does the shield have when used as a throwing weapon? I can't imagine it is balanced for such use.

[Yagathai]

Oh, I'm assuming it's an awkward weapon, with a base 2 Ob to hit. Basically an improvised thrown weapon. +2 Pow, lousy DOF, VA 1.

[Yagathai]

That's an interesting question -- the Spider threw his net at the end of Volley 2. At the start of Volley 3. he has Acquire Target. By the end of Volley 3, he's got a Throw Lariat scripted. When, exactly, has she extruded the lariat? Because if the answer is during Volley 1, Action 1, then can he use it to position with?

I suppose an equivalent situation would be
V1,A1: Close, Draw Dagger
V2,A1: Close, Draw Dagger
V2,A2: Strike

Could he use the Dagger to position with at the start of Volley 2, since it was still not totally drawn yet?

[Verrain]

Eclavdra has the instinct always have a lariat ready. Its been sitting ready on one of her back legs ready to be brought to bear for the entirety of the combat.

On another note, is the current post-tackle situation that we are both prone and thus subject to the increased Ob on natural defense and attacking maneuvers? For that matter, are locks, throws, pushs and the like considered attacking maneuvers for the purpose of that +4ob?

[Yagathai]

Luke made a ruling on this once. You're on the bottom, and I'm on the top, so you're at a +2 Ob and I'm at a +1 Ob is how I remember it. Might be worth digging for the thread, though, or starting a new one somewhere.

[Verrain]

Well I didn't find the answer to that question but found another thread that may make it beside the point.

According to this thread, http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2258&highlight=tackle

a tackle maneuver that starts from outside striking distance is an automatic failure because you can only close two fighting distances in a volley.

[Yagathai]

Hm. So according to that thread, Tackling is out but Charging is in? That's... odd. Very odd.

OK, so how do you want to play this? Retcon or play through? And if retcon, retcon what?

[Verrain]

Let's play through for now and go with you at +1ob and me at +2ob for actions against each other. That sounds reasonable. And both of us with the natural defenses penalty. Sound good?

[Yagathai]

Fine with me.

[luke]

Shortest weapon gains the positioning bonus on the Inside, not the longer weapon. Hence why knives are valuable in close. Stupid spider!

There's no way you're going to be able to hold him on the Inside, Mike!

-L

[Yagathai]

Right, but the thing is that Trolls have Massive Stature, right? Which is + to all weapon lengths. Which means that I can't actually have a shortest weapon.

[Black Spectrum]

Right, but the thing is that Trolls have Massive Stature, right? Which is + to all weapon lengths. Which means that I can't actually have a shortest weapon.
Except for your gob, right? Unless those fangs are really long...

Btw, shouldn't all of your attacks have +1VA from that mighty-mighty strength of yours?

[Yagathai]

Ah, so they should.

And I'm not sure about the jaws thing. I mean, Massive Stature says +1 to all weapon lengths, not +1 to all weapon lengths except troll mouths.

What does the peanut gallery think?

[Yagathai]

Sorry, Verrain, but your first exchange is invalid. You can't Throw using Brawling.

[Verrain]

Why not? That is what the book says to test.

[Yagathai]

But on p 232 of the ChaBu, Throw is specifically prohibited under the Brawling skill description.

Though you could default to Agility. With a +2 Ob, you'd need 6 successes.

[Verrain]

Throwing someone across the room is a hallmark of any barroom brawl. Can someone out there explain the logic of this?

[Yagathai]

I think it's that they mean "throw" in the martial art, judo/jujitsu sense. What you're talking about sounds more like a push.

Or, everyone in a barroom brawl has Boxing.

[Verrain]

Actually, hold on a moment. I need to rethink this now.

[Verrain]

Ok, I have redone my exchange to something legal. Thanks for waiting.

[Yagathai]

De nada.

[Yagathai]

If there's one thing my Troll is built to do, it's tackle and lock. If there's one thing Verrain's Spider is built to do, it's withdraw and engage in ranged combat. This combat is awesome! Positioning rules all!

[Verrain]

Agreed. This is great fun!

[luke]

Acquire/Draw Lariat does not allow you to position with your teeth as shortest weapon. In that instance, with no lariat out (but trying), you are positioning without a weapon. Mike then gains the weapon bonus. In this case, for shortest weapon.

-L

[Verrain]

OK, so using the teeth is out but I still have a question. Is positioning without a weapon is different from positioning unarmed i.e. with fists/legs? Because that would still give me the shortest weapon advantage. With eight legs, I don't see why some couldn't be fending him off while the others prepare the lariat.

[luke]

You may position with arms and legs. However: You have elongated forelegs, so that would have cost you even more; your intent had nothing to do with legs. You were using your lariat, you had to pay the price of using your lariat.

[Verrain]

So acquiring = using so far as positioning is concerned. Fair enough.

[luke]

Trust me, I got caught out with this the other night. I was nocking an arrow in Fight! And it did absolutely nothing for me positioning wise.

[Yagathai]

And with that, as soon as someone gives me my l33t mod powerz back, I'm going to add Spiders to Trolls in the "illegal in the arena" category. They're just on another power level entirely from the rest of the races, barring magic.

Not that people are following the rules around here lately anyway.

[Verrain]

*chuckle* Well to be fair, she was a six lifepath Spider. The four lifepath versions are somewhat less scary. Still, they are quite impressive I must admit.

[Yagathai]

I'll take a 4-LP troll or spider against a 4-LP human any day of the week. Trolls and spiders I put on par with each other, deadliness-wise. I mean, come on. I was throwing a potential 11 dice for positioning -- and you were still beating me! No human could match that.

I think this fight really showed the importance of positioning, though. If I had won even one of those positioning tests that I lost, it would have been goodnight, spider.

[Verrain]

Pretty much. Like many fights it was the first to get an opening that won. If we were still doing this like a contest with Artha awarded and characters improving skills I would agree with the banning. Or rather then banning, maybe we need a regular league and a Monster league.

[luke]

Actually, I think Mike could have gotten nastier with his troll in 6 LPs. I think he could have seriously power-burned the thing. But he went for color, god bless his shiny soul!

-L

[Verrain]

Oh I am sure things could always get worse. I already have some tweaks for the Spider even. :)

[Yagathai]

True enough. If I had gone straight Pit, the troll would have been a lot meaner. A lot. And smarter, too.

[Tobias]

Not that people are following the rules around here lately anyway.

Lack of referees for a period, IIRC. This works well, anyway!

(Although leagues are cool, of course!)

[TimP]

I wish people would stick to 4 lifepaths, post their characters in the Hall of Champions, and keep a win-loss record, because that shit's fun!

[Kublai]

Abzu and I agree that the troll should never have tackled the spider, but instead should've stayed on his feet.

[Yagathai]

Eh, I wanted the quick Locking victory. I probably could have eked out a striking victory by standing on my feet, mind you.