Dwarf Prince vs. Mounted Knight: Discussion

[Yagathai]

My guy: http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/showpost.php?p=36526&postcount=27

This ought to be entertaining as hell.

[TimP]

http://burningwheel.org/forum/showpost.php?p=37137&postcount=36

Sir Goddard.

Brave Face: Warhorse
Pe 3(4), Wi 2, Ag 4, Sp 6, Po 7, Fo 7
He 5, St 7, Re 4, MW 13, Hes. 5
PTGS 4, 7, 10, 11, 12, 13
Rider Training, Mtd Cmbt tr, Armor Tr, Formation Fighting Tr, Intimidation b2, Brawling b3, Foraging b2
Level-headed, Loyal, Determined, Fearless, Aggressive, Long-limbed, Keen Hearing, Hooved, Ungulate

[TimP]

Yag. I think I should be rolling 8d. The mount's speed is 6d, plus longest weapon, plus speed bonus. I'll reroll my IP

Tim

[Yagathai]

Oh, I thought the speed was 7. You're right.

[TimP]

You actually use the mount's Reflexes to determine bonus die. Of course, you're faster than my horse, anyway...

[TimP]

Bear with me. It's been a looong time since I've done mounted combat.

Tim

[Yagathai]

Me too. First week of May, 2005, to be exact.

[TimP]

Buh. Positioning for a lance charge is weird. I should have started at lunging to give myself room to close.

[TimP]

I totally missed with my strike. I need to hit ob4 when at optimal.

[Yagathai]

Don't forget that a Lance is Unwieldy, so if you want to Strike with it, you have to spend an action Setting. AND you have to Withdraw after every Strike attempt.

So your script has to look something like:

V1 Maintain, Set
V2 Close, Strike
V3 Withdraw, Set

V1 Close, Strike

Ob 4? Why? +1 for riding, +1 for Closing. Oh, and I'm Closing too. Yeah, OK, 4.

[TimP]

Don't forget that a Lance is Unwieldy, so if you want to Strike with it, you have to spend an action Setting. AND you have to Withdraw after every Strike attempt.

So your script has to look something like:

V1 Maintain, Set
V2 Close, Strike
V3 Withdraw, Set

V1 Close, Strike

Ob 4? Why? +1 for riding, +1 for Closing. Oh, and I'm Closing too. Yeah, OK, 4.

Right. I guess I fucked up that first volley, because I totally forgot about the unwieldy thing.

Ob 4 because +1 for riding and an additional +2 for Closing while riding. Do Closes stack like in your example?!?

[Yagathai]

Yes, but you have Mounted Combat training, so you only get a +1, total.

[TimP]

Gotcha.

[Yagathai]

And you can still Charge me in this volley, but you're not doing a Lance Strike, you're just doing a plain ol' Charge with your mount. Which still nets you, let's see...

Assuming my B&B fails, you've got 10D of charge to throw at me.

[TimP]

Right, but I failed to command my mount. Also, I'm all fucked up on the Volley/Action timing for my Lance natural defenses.

[TimP]

I suppose the Beat and Binds don't have any effect on Volley 3's actions, since I'm, uh, not doing anything. :D

[Thor Olavsrud]

Tim, just want to make sure you've carefully read Commanding Your Mount in Fight! and Positioning on page 244. You only have to make the Riding test if you are instructing your mount to act, "Bite, Push, Avoid, etc.," or if you are performing a Steel Close or Steel Withdraw (i.e., in Range & Cover).

In this case you asked your horse to Charge rather than just Closing so you could use your Lance, so you were correct to make the test. But you don't have to make Riding tests for normal positioning.

Also, note that it was your mount that Hesitated and failed the Charge, not you. You can sacrifice an action to make another riding test to guide its Hesitation result, but you don't have to.

[Yagathai]

B&B happened Volley 2, Action 2.

Charge doesn't happen until Volley 3, Action 1. So the ND comes before the Charge.

Anyway, what were you trying to do with the Charge? You were trying to command your horse to Charge, right? You scripted Charge, not Strike, so I'm assuming that's what you're doing. Which is a Riding check, which is Riding vs your beast's Will.

Now I'm going to call shenanigans on the Lance FoRK on the Riding test -- having a spear in your hand does not help you command a horse to run me over. But I cannot conceive that a Riding check is going to suffer from any Ob penalties because you're mounted. So the way I see it, it's Riding 6 vs your Horse's Will = 6D vs Ob 2.

[TimP]

Tim, just want to make sure you've carefully read Commanding Your Mount in Fight! and Positioning on page 244. You only have to make the Riding test if you are instructing your mount to act, "Bite, Push, Avoid, etc.," or if you are performing a Steel Close or Steel Withdraw (i.e., in Range & Cover).

In this case you asked your horse to Charge rather than just Closing so you could use your Lance, so you were correct to make the test. But you don't have to make Riding tests for normal positioning.

Yeah, I actually DO understand that, believe it or not. :D

[Thor Olavsrud]

Yeah, I actually DO understand that, believe it or not. :D

Cool. Check the amendment, though.

[TimP]

Now I'm going to call shenanigans on the Lance FoRK on the Riding test -- having a spear in your hand does not help you command a horse to run me over. But I cannot conceive that a Riding check is going to suffer from any Ob penalties because you're mounted. So the way I see it, it's Riding 6 vs your Horse's Will = 6D vs Ob 2.

Ok, but if you're going to call shenanigans on that, I'm calling them on FoRKing Boxing into a Beat and Bind. Ahem.

I agree about the Riding check, but the +1ob would be there as the rules are written, so let's just play on, until we hear otherwise from Luke or Thor.

And, yes, I was just trying to charge with the horse.

[Yagathai]

What? No way! What do you think a clinch is? Plus the footwork, the hand-eye coordination... I think of it this way. I could have used Boxing to Beat and Bind and forked in Axe and that would have been OK, so I don't see why it's not cool the other way around.

[TimP]

Also, note that it was your mount that Hesitated and failed the Charge, not you. You can sacrifice an action to make another riding test to guide its Hesitation result, but you don't have to.

Wait wait wait. The Horse actually Hesitates? As in I need to make a Steel check for him? Because what the rules say (unless I'm missing something) is "If this test is failed, the animal bolts or shies and otherwise does not do what it's told."

That sentence sounds like mechanically meaningless color, to me.

[TimP]

What? No way! What do you think a clinch is? Plus the footwork, the hand-eye coordination... I think of it this way. I could have used Boxing to Beat and Bind and forked in Axe and that would have been OK, so I don't see why it's not cool the other way around.

Ok. I'm convinced.

Let me make my argument for Lance FoRKing into Riding, then. Is a warhorse not bred and trained to do one thing? To carry a lance-bearing rider into battle at full tilt with the dig of the golden spurs? When it sees the gleaming lance in the peripheral vision of its right eye does it not know that NOW is when it really counts? Does all those years of tilting at the quintain with a LANCE not count for something when directing your steed in deadly combat?

[Kublai]

Do Closes stack like in your example?!?

Closes don't stack. You only get the +1 Ob if you are the one moving. It doesn't matter what your opponent is doing.

[TimP]

Closes don't stack. You only get the +1 Ob if you are the one moving. It doesn't matter what your opponent is doing.

Quit cheating Yagathai! :)

[Thor Olavsrud]

Wait wait wait. The Horse actually Hesitates? As in I need to make a Steel check for him? Because what the rules say (unless I'm missing something) is "If this test is failed, the animal bolts or shies and otherwise does not do what it's told."

That sentence sounds like mechanically meaningless color, to me.

These are two separate things. First, there is commanding your mount in Fight! In order to get him to do the Charge, you need to pass the Riding test. If you command your mount to Charge and you fail the Riding test, your mount doesn't Charge. In essence it Hesitates. I believe, though am not certain, that it still Positions as you wanted it to. It simply fails to carry out the action your ordered.

However, since your action was a Charge, I would view it as a failed Charge, resulting in it Hesitating for one action.

The second part, about the animal bolting or shying, refers only and specifically to failed Steel Closes or Steel Withdraws. In those instances, your mount does roll its Steel, as per the Riding and Steel section on page 248. It is most assuredly not color.

[Yagathai]

He doesn't hesitate because he blanks. He Hesitates -- Stand & Drool for one round, which in the case of a horse is rear and whinny or whatever -- because he failed a Charge.

Now you can choose to use your first action next exchange to try to change it from Rearing and Shying to Running Away Like A Wittle Baby Horsie or Falling Over (i forget what the Mount Burner calls them), which is another riding test, or you can take an action instead.

Of course, if you let the horse Rear and Shy, it's a 2 Ob riding test to keep from being thrown.

ETA: Though now that I actually read it, Stand & Drool seems to translate to either Rear or Shy, and only Rear triggers the 2 Ob riding test. So since you're scripting your mount, I guess you could choose Shy, and not Rear, and not have to make the riding test.

[Yagathai]

Quit cheating Yagathai! :)

My bad. Hey, I thought it was an Ob 3, anyway! That's why I rolled the Avoid.

[TimP]

My quote about balking, or whatever, is taken from page 244, which is in the Fight! section of the Mounted Combat rules. It does not say anything about a Steel check for a failed Riding check, there. If I was unable to command my horse, the Charge never happened, and I don't believe I should be penalized for an action that didn't even occur (i.e. the hypothectical failed charge)!

My reading of the rules is that my V3/A1 simply doesn't happen, without further penalty.

Am I wrong?

[Yagathai]

Hmmm. Didn't think of it that way. But it seems fair. We'll go with that, then.

ETA: Of course, that does screw up my scripting. Would it be out of line to ask to re-script?

ETA2: eh, forget it. Let's see what happens.

[TimP]

Cool. Come on big money on the Withdraw!!!

[TimP]

That was soooo not big money. Me and horsey are in trouble, now.

[TimP]

Hah! I'm not averse to a re-script, but I can't imagine why you'd want to, given the results...

[TimP]

If you use stance dice for positioning, but have an appropriate action in the 2nd action slot, can you then turn around and use the stance dice in the same volley?

[Yagathai]

Not unless you change stance in the first volley, I would say.

[TimP]

Wow. What an unfortunate turn of events for noble young Goddard.

[Yagathai]

There's a reason I have the instinct to go for the horse first.

[TimP]

Oh yeah, I understand :)

Still, I thought I'd be able to outposition you for a good while. I'm rolling horribly today, though.

[Yagathai]

It's true, the positioning was not your friend.

[TimP]

Will Arben show mercy, or will he cut down this flower of chivalry in his prime? ;)

Another masterful victory, Yagathai! Even though I was totally pwned (and I'm not sure I've EVER rolled that poorly in an RPG), I thought it was an awesome, chaotic, and bloody Fight!.

Tim

[Yagathai]

Thanks again, Tim.

Fighting a mounted opponent can be tricky, but a couple of things work in your favour:

Charges have to come at the top of a volley.
Lance charges must be preceded by a Set and a Withdraw (though not necessarily in tandem), and you know more or less what your opponent is going to position. They probably have more dice with which to position, but there's something to be said for knowing what's coming anyway.
Most people don't bother armoring their horse, and dropping a knight's mount is like a three-fer: You cripple his positioning, plus there's a good chance you knock him down, plus he might take damage from the fall.

[TimP]

From the other side of the fence...

There's absolutely no reason not to go Aggressive when you're mounted and facing a footman. Whether you use the extra dice for positioning or for beating those high Strike Obs, they're (would have been) good to have.

Also: Barding.

[Yagathai]

I totally got my IMS screwed up in that fight. My S is a B13, not a B14, and my M is a B9, not a B8.

not that it would have made too much difference.

[luke]

Not that I'm a ref or anything, but I think this fight is a forfeit. Mike benefitted twice from stance dice in one volley. You can only ever gain +2D from your stance in one volley -- doesn't matter if you switch stances. If you start by positioning with your stance dice, you can't then use +2D for an action. Even if you script CHANGE STANCE/STRIKE (or whatever). The whole volley is happening simultaneously. Technically, Mike's in Agg Stance for the volley. So he uses his Agg stance dice to position.

Anyway, personally, I think a rematch is in order. But Tim's luck was so dismal, that maybe it wouldn't have mattered!

-L

[TimP]

Not that I'm a ref or anything, but I think this fight is a forfeit. Mike benefitted twice from stance dice in one volley. You can only ever gain +2D from your stance in one volley -- doesn't matter if you switch stances. If you start by positioning with your stance dice, you can't then use +2D for an action. Even if you script CHANGE STANCE/STRIKE (or whatever). The whole volley is happening simultaneously. Technically, Mike's in Agg Stance for the volley. So he uses his Agg stance dice to position.

That's good to know. I'd never had that situation come up before.


Anyway, personally, I think a rematch is in order. But Tim's luck was so dismal, that maybe it wouldn't have mattered!

-L

Nah. I don't think that was really the deciding factor. I think it was my abysmal positioning rolls. :)