Burning Wesnoth: Drakes

[Deliverator]

Anyone on here play Battle for Wesnoth, the amazingly fun (and free!) tactical fantasy computer game to which I've been addicted for over a year?

I'm working on burning up the Drakes from Wesnoth as a full-on race for Burning Wheel and Burning Kingdoms, and could use some feedback from someone familiar with the game.

The optimal average guy was easy to build, but now I am working on Settings, Sub-Settings, and LPs.

Matt

[The Dragon Master]

Not familiar with the game myself, but just how well developed is the species in-game?

[Suicide King]

I play Wesnoth a lot myself (what's your nick on the server?) and have thought about doing the exact same thing myself...

I own the old Council of Wyrms 2nd ed. d&d supplement, so burning up dragons as a race of some kind has been in mind for me, but the drakes in wesnoth are also cool. I'd definitely give you a hand with feedback.

[Deliverator]

Dragon Master -- they're reasonably well-developed, though there's not as much info on them as on the main races of Wesnoth (humans, Elves, Orcs, and Dwarves, unsurprisingly).

The idea is that they are humanoid dragonfolk, descendents of the actual dragons. They are quite sophisticated, and have both advanced scholarly traditions and tool-using arts on par with humans. They are an emerging civilization, living isolated on one remote end of the continent—I've been conceiving of them as having just fled another continent only a generation or two. (Shit has just gone ill on that other continent, the last few remaining true Dragons got wiped out, and the Drakes are refugees, essentially.)

They live about twice as long as humans, but suffer from slow reproduction. Their government is a combination of hereditary nobility and scholarly/magical meritocracy. Socially they are quite insular, and their appearance can make it difficult for them to interact with other races, who are often frightened of the Drakes on initial contact.

Suicide King -- thanks, I'll Wiki up what I have and post it as soon as I can. I'll continue posting in this thread pointing to links and whatnot.

Matt

[Sempiternity]

You might want to take a look at some of the other "lizard-man" stocks that are floating around - the Spiritis Mundi wiki (http://www.phreeow.net/wiki/tiki-index.php?page=lizardfolk)has a very well developed one - to see if you can steal some ideas...

Also, other peoples are terrified by the sight of a Drake? Sounds like a Trait - "Visage of the Dragon" or suchlike!

[Deliverator]

Sempiternity -- thanks, I will take a look! And yes, I gave them the Trait "Shadow of the Dragon," which gives +1 Ob to all Social Skills when first meeting any Elf, Man, or Dwarf, except Intimidation, which receives a +1D. In later scenes with the *same* Elf, Man, or Dwarf, the penalty goes away, but the bonus stays.

What I have so far is up here:

http://www.burningwheel.org/wiki/index.php?title=Drakes

It's quite a bit, though obviously very incomplete.

Matt

[Deliverator]

Oh yeah--the numbers in brackets after a particular LP are the numbers of the Prereq LP. An asterisk in the bracket indicates that the prereq comes from another setting, and is TBD.

Also, w00t, 101 posts!

Matt

[Sempiternity]

Looks good! (Is that example a conversion of a character of yours?)

One thing i forgot to mention, that i really like, is how well BW's Emotional Attributes can catch the feel of an alien race, and drive that distinctiveness through play, even more than traits & skills.

I have no idea what kind of EA would be cool for the Drakes to have, however! (Something about attaining or foreswearing dragon-nature, perhaps...)

[Suicide King]

What you got so far looks cool. Here is what I have to add...

Good idea to choose an explorer and emissary as the optimal example. This is the guy whom the elves, men and dwarves will meet first.
He is pretty bad-ass - a very competent warrior, good social skills, and very good stats. Incredibly good stats in fact... ag B5 might be a bit over the top as they aren't supposed to be more agile than humans - you have set their ag max below 8, so they are actually a little less agile... I might tone down the stats a bit, maybe reduce will to 4, ag to 4. Of course, as a scout and explorer his ag & sp might be higher than most drakes', but then his po and fo should suffer a bit.

I like the traits. They make sense and evoke the draconic part of him... Also fits with them as described in the game - most drakes can breathe fire, fly and have claws or better weapons at hand :P
Dragon's Snout is not described, but I assume it is a die trait that helps perception somehow. Perhaps offsets their darkness penalty a bit.
Another thing - I don't like "half damage from fire" mean? I'd make it so that they reduce all incoming fire by x pips - where x could be 6 or some lower number.
I do not know about the mating thing. One one hand, it's a little weird (so if mating somewhere else, they can't conceive?), on the other, it's cool as it signifies their mystical relationship to the sun...

All in all, I think this optimal hits the nail squarely on the head. I like the feel of him. He's tough, he's smart and he's dangerous, but he is also civilized (his beliefs and relationships show this very well) and not interested in picking a fight. His appearance will work against him, but with patience and persistence he can overcome that. I'd play this guy.

I have got a few questions on where you are going from here though...
My assumption is that you are staying fairly close to the descriptive text from the units in wesnoth.
The text implies that they place a lot of value in heritage - are you going with this?
Some drakes are born with greater fire breath - they often become leaders... great power over fire is a sign of nobility - is that cool? The burners seems to say that fire and nobility is strongly connected, as that shows a bloodline closer to the ancient dragons.
Other drakes seem to be born without the ability to fly (wings are too weak?) and without the ability to breathe fire. What does this mean, what are their role in society? It seems they are often made judicators and lawmen, not sure that makes sense to me.
They have very good smiths - the gladiators and enforces are all about this (odd names though).
Drakes can be trained to become better fliers (gliders), not sure if that should be reflected in stats, skills or traits.
Fire and the sun are important to them. They get their most important ceremonial armour from the bottom of lava flows, they venerate the sun. Should there be a priesthood, worshipping the sun or venerating their dragon ancestors... maybe both? Two different religions - ancestor worship and sun worship - could work.
How about the saurians? They are essentially just lizardmen, but I don't really know what their relationship is with the drakes... are they slaves, live together for mutual benefit or have you decided that they aren't there in your setting? The Spiritis Mundi lizardmen could be used almost directly I think.

[Deliverator]

Suicide King -- word to you, for you are awesome! This is exactly what I was looking for. Responses inline below.


What you got so far looks cool. Here is what I have to add...

Good idea to choose an explorer and emissary as the optimal example. This is the guy whom the elves, men and dwarves will meet first.
He is pretty bad-ass - a very competent warrior, good social skills, and very good stats. Incredibly good stats in fact... ag B5 might be a bit over the top as they aren't supposed to be more agile than humans - you have set their ag max below 8, so they are actually a little less agile... I might tone down the stats a bit, maybe reduce will to 4, ag to 4. Of course, as a scout and explorer his ag & sp might be higher than most drakes', but then his po and fo should suffer a bit.

Sure, maybe. The dude has several +1 P LPs though. Anyway, I will rework him once I get all the LPs detailed.


I like the traits. They make sense and evoke the draconic part of him... Also fits with them as described in the game - most drakes can breathe fire, fly and have claws or better weapons at hand :P
Dragon's Snout is not described, but I assume it is a die trait that helps perception somehow. Perhaps offsets their darkness penalty a bit.

Err, yes. Dragon's Snout is just Wolf's Snout from the Character Burner, p. 290. Thanks for catching that. I just went and fixed it on the Wiki--turns out I left it out entirely from the racial roundup.


Another thing - I don't like "half damage from fire" mean? I'd make it so that they reduce all incoming fire by x pips - where x could be 6 or some lower number.

Well, what would make sense to me is to reduce all fire damage by a number of pips equal to the Drake's Forte exponent, or Forte+2 for Gray Shade. Since Forte is already the stat which determines how often you can breathe flame, essentially, it seems to makes sense. (Note that a true Dragon could still fry most Drakes with ease, which is fine by me.)


I do not know about the mating thing. One one hand, it's a little weird (so if mating somewhere else, they can't conceive?), on the other, it's cool as it signifies their mystical relationship to the sun...

Yeah, that was the idea. I think I'll keep it for now. It would definitely be a major source of conflict in the game, both with other races, and possibly internally as well. After all, any couple on the Islands or in the Desert Fastnesses has to make a big pilgrimage in the summertime if they want to conceive. (BTW, I have been conceiving of the Drakes as monogamous, and having the same nuclear family structure as people, basically. Does that make sense to you?)


All in all, I think this optimal hits the nail squarely on the head. I like the feel of him. He's tough, he's smart and he's dangerous, but he is also civilized (his beliefs and relationships show this very well) and not interested in picking a fight. His appearance will work against him, but with patience and persistence he can overcome that. I'd play this guy.

Thanks!


I have got a few questions on where you are going from here though...
My assumption is that you are staying fairly close to the descriptive text from the units in wesnoth.
The text implies that they place a lot of value in heritage - are you going with this?

Well, the Roof of the World setting is basically the nobility. Combined with the Ancient Secrets sub-setting, that's where a lot of the "cool stuff," and also the heritage stuff, comes from. I'm also thinking that the Drakes have Tribes, maybe like 5 or 6 different ones, but each Tribe contains the full spectrum of social classes. So if a Scalediver from the Islands travels to the mountains to mate, a local Skylord from his Tribe might put him up, even though the Skylord is of a much higher social class! The Skylord might actually have greater social obligations to the Scalediver than to a Skylord from a different Tribe. Hey, I think that's kind of cool.

If you like that idea, any ideas for Tribal names? (Maybe with a minor Cosmetic Trait for each Tribe?)


Some drakes are born with greater fire breath - they often become leaders... great power over fire is a sign of nobility - is that cool? The burners seems to say that fire and nobility is strongly connected, as that shows a bloodline closer to the ancient dragons.

Good point. I will definitely try to incorporate that aspect. Maybe I will have a Trait which increases the Drake's Fire VA by 1, and another which gives the Drake a +1D to his Forte for purposes of fire-breathing. These Traits will only be available to the nobility, and also one or two of the city LPs I have planned. (I basically want some super-soldier Drake LP where the Drake himself is a living siege engine.) At the same time, though, I definitely didn't want to try to get down to the level of distinguishing between, say, Fighters and Gliders. It's more about the concept than directly modeling Wesnoth, which I feel will come out pretty well anyway.

Though maybe each Tribe has a predilection for a particular calling? Scouts, Scholars, Warriors, etc. (Essentially, each of the main advancement branches from Wesnoth.)


Other drakes seem to be born without the ability to fly (wings are too weak?) and without the ability to breathe fire. What does this mean, what are their role in society? It seems they are often made judicators and lawmen, not sure that makes sense to me.

I decided against incorporating that as an in-born thing. Instead, I'm going to have a Clipped Wings Trait and an Extinguished Trait in the Captives in the Dark Sub-Setting (and possibly also a Flayed Trait which reduces their natural armor, and maybe one or two other such things). Those who escape from that Sub-Setting might well take up a judicial or martial role once they return to their kin.


They have very good smiths - the gladiators and enforces are all about this (odd names though).

Definitely—there will be either one Smith LP or several in each of the three main Settings, and possibly one in the Seekers of the Lost Sub-Setting. The Seekers, by the way, are the closest thing to a military sub-setting that the Drakes have. The Drakes are simply too awesome to really need giant, organized armies the way other races are, at least for normal purposes. (Unfortunately, they *are* vulnerable to large, organized armies of other races.) Imagine a Seeker LP which is all about finding out the strengths and weaknesses of other races' weaponry, armor, and fortifications. Awesome!


Drakes can be trained to become better fliers (gliders), not sure if that should be reflected in stats, skills or traits.

Flight Training (Training skill): Eliminate the +1Ob to in-air Speed checks from Dragon's Flight. Additionally, if a Drake's Speed is ever reduced to zero while in-flight (due to a wound or from overusing Dragon's Breath), the Drake may test unmodified Speed versus Ob3 to glide safely to the ground.


Fire and the sun are important to them. They get their most important ceremonial armour from the bottom of lava flows, they venerate the sun. Should there be a priesthood, worshipping the sun or venerating their dragon ancestors... maybe both? Two different religions - ancestor worship and sun worship - could work.

Ooh, volcanos, didn't think about that. Yes, excellent. I think there does need to be a Venerator LP in the Ancient Secrets Sub-Setting. That's shaping up to be quite an extensive Sub-Setting that a large percentage of the Roof of the World Drakes jump into, as well as some city Drakes, but I think that's fine. Anyway, maybe there's a rivalry between Venerators and Genealogists, but I don't think it's a full-fledged religious schism, though that could happen in-game!


How about the saurians? They are essentially just lizardmen, but I don't really know what their relationship is with the drakes... are they slaves, live together for mutual benefit or have you decided that they aren't there in your setting? The Spiritis Mundi lizardmen could be used almost directly I think.

The Spiritus Mundi lizardmen are indeed quite developed, and I will probably rip-off a number of their Scholar LPs. That said, I'm not sure they belong here. They might be a sub-race which developed when the Betrayers of the Sun bred...

In Wesnoth they're really there to give the Drakes some Chaotic counterparts who have non-shitty defenses. This makes Drakes a functional faction. In BW I'm not sure they are necessary to the concept.

Thanks again! I will continue posting here as I update LP lists and so on. BTW, did I leave anything out of the two LP lists I posted already, the nobility and the islanders?

Matt

[Sempiternity]

If you like that idea, any ideas for Tribal names? (Maybe with a minor Cosmetic Trait for each Tribe?)

Quick thought - Each Tribe has a Trait, the name or nickname of the Tribe, but it's a die trait granting a minor Affiliation to that Tribe. That'd mesh well with the hospitality & tribal bonds idea, no?


(edit: Also, now i've got this great image in my head of a range and cover between a couple flying, fire-spitting drakes and a group of archers! :))

[Deliverator]

Thanks Sempiternity. That's definitely a cool idea! I think I want some Cosmetic feature to the Trait as well, like unique coloration or number of talons on each hand.

More stuff is up on the Wiki page, all, please check it out and comment. I am particularly interested in feedback on the Lifepaths, and if you have ideas, throw 'em up there!

Thanks.

Matt

[Deliverator]

OK guys, I've got a bunch more LPs and such up on the Wiki page, please give it a look and let me know what you think.

At this point the LPs are just names; I think the concept should be reasonably clear from each one. Please tell me if there are things missing, or LPs which seem unneccessary. In particular I need to flesh out the Desert Cities setting more, and I'd like a few more "evil" LPs in the "Betrayers of the Sun" sub-setting. With the City setting, I'm trying to decide how many criminal or underworld type LPs there are. It feels like there shouldn't be too many. The Drakes don't have much of an underworld. Anyone who transgresses too severely is a Betrayer of the Sun. More akin to Dwarves.

I need to start working on LP Traits and Drake Special Traits, too. I've already got some good suggestions and ideas.

*Ancient Blood: lineage trait, increases the VA of your fire by 1
*Boiling Blood: C-O for Forte when resisting the "tax" of fire breathing
*Many-hued Scales ---> Scintillating Scales ---> Iridescent Scales: akin to the upgrading of Troll Skin, the Scintillating Scales trait ups the natural Drake armor to 4D, and Iridescent Scales ups it to 5D.
*The 6 Tribal Traits

What else do I need to do?

Matt

[Suicide King]

They have a strong tradition of smiths and crafters; and they are fairly hierachal (sp?), so the settings need a Master Smith/Crafter lifepath of some kind.

I am also looking forward to seeing how the Dragon lifepath works. I guess the idea someone who delves more into his draconic heritage than most... cool, but I want to see how you implement it.

And it might just be me, but I really love the burner units from the game, so some a lifepath or two dealing with their fire could be fun :) I already love that you have included the boiling blood trait.

[Deliverator]

Check it out! More stuff is up, including the beginnings of finalized LP's; click the link at the top of the "Islands and Rivers" Setting to go to the detailed LP writeups.

On the main page for the Drakes, I've also:

1. Clarified how Dragon's Breath works
2. Made a list of the Tribes, and explained the Tribal obligation concept (note the reference to a recent, amusing thread)
3. Made a slight alteration to the Property list
4. Begun making a list of Drake Lifepath Traits and Drake Special Traits

Matt

[Suicide King]

Love the clans - cool cosmetic differences. Maybe add some notes about how they act differently as well?

Property list good, like how maps are a specific entry (important for those explorer types).

I want more!

[Deliverator]

Hey there SK, thanks for getting back to me.

I can definitely add notes about the sub-culture of each clan; as always suggestions are welcome. In fact, what do you think of the idea of making the Clan Traits into (relatively minor) Die Traits instead of just cosmetic?

Any feedback on the LPs I've got so far? I will definitely try to resume work on them soon!

Matt