First time running BW

[pseudoidiot]

The DM in my Saturday D&D group wants to take a little break, so we're trying to find things to do for a few sessions until he gets his creative juices started back up. I've mentioned Burning Wheel to them a few times, and I offered to run The Sword, and they were all interested. So, I'm looking for advice on things people have done (or haven't done) in The Sword that have worked really well, and things that haven't worked so well.

A little info on my group:
There's 5 of us. I've been playing with 3 of the guys for about a year and a half. The last guy is fairly new, only for about the last 4 or 5 months. They all have the most experience with D&D and d20. I know at least one guy has played Shadowrun.

I've already got the scripting sheets, and am in the process of laminating them, since I know how well that works from the Burning Wheel game I'm already in. I'm also giving them tidbits of rules before the actual demo so they can think about them and ask any questions.

Since monsters are such an ingrained piece of D&D I was considering introducing a monster into the demo, especially if they don't manage to get into a fight with one another; that way I can show off how Fight! works.

I've been a player in The Sword once, and I've got a pretty good grasp on the rules. I don't know every single detail of how everything works, but I know, at least, the basics of how everything works, and I can look up the details, so I feel ready in that department.

Thanks in advance!

--Jeremiah

[gooderguy]

i have to admit, the one time i ran the sword for my old 'd+d' friends, all but one of them HATED it (and he had already played some indie games). i threw the small spider from the back of the book in, as a 'protector' for the sword, to give them a 'monster' to fight, and the armor rules and stuff drove them crazy. also, they had a hard time getting the emotional attributes of the elf/dward.

it's funny, they loved the belief/instincts, traits, etc. but the system stuff was too much for people used to hit points and challenge ratings. their quote was 'it was cool until we started rolling the dice' and the elven spell-songs really throw new players (and even new GMs).

that being said, i had never played the sword before, so maybe that was my problem. overall, i think 'the sword' is a great set-up for gamers with an indie-mindset, but i feel it's too close to home for those entrenched in the classic d+d idiom. they tend to have skewed expectations when seeing the 'adventuring party'. i suggest distancing them from the comfort zone of elves/dwarves by running an all-human game.

if you want, i've run this one-shot multiple times, and for the most part, the player's were really into it. it was different enough that they jumped into it without the expectations of dungeon crawl d+d and it's easier to understand the full range of the character's capabilities without the special racial traits/abilities.

http://www.burningwheel.org/wiki/index.php?title=Sons_of_the_Watch

[pseudoidiot]

that being said, i had never played the sword before, so maybe that was my problem. overall, i think 'the sword' is a great set-up for gamers with an indie-mindset, but i feel it's too close to home for those entrenched in the classic d+d idiom. they tend to have skewed expectations when seeing the 'adventuring party'. i suggest distancing them from the comfort zone of elves/dwarves by running an all-human game.


Thanks for link.

Although, I have to say I don't really agree with the 'indie-mindset' thought. When I played The Sword, I certainly didn't have that sort of mindset, but I still really enjoyed it. I know it's a big step for players used to more traditional RPG's like D&D, but I know my group well enough that I think they can handle the jump.

Either way, I'll look over that demo a little more. I skimmed over it, and it looks cool, but I've only got 4 players. Is there a character that really isn't as necessary?

[Thor]

I really like the Ophidia as a monster for The Sword, and I believe it's recommended in the text.

I like to use Arcane Kindness and Seduction to get one of the party members hot and bothered, convincing him that secrets and wealth could be his if he defends her against his rapacious comrades.

The dwarf is often a good target because his Greed makes him especially vulnerable. Also, with his armor he's tough enough to go toe-to-toe with his comrades for a bit, even outnumbered. This works best if he actually has the Sword in his hand, as his own sword is poorly made and so difficult to use.

If necessary, the Ophidia can fall back on using The Horror if she gets in a real scrape.

Note that if all four characters turn on her at once, she's probably toast. She knows this. So don't get cocky with her. Play her as seductive, manipulative and very smart.

[pseudoidiot]

Awesome, thanks for the advice. I'll check her out. I really like manipulative stuff like that. I may have a couple monsters in my "bag of tricks" and choose what to use based on how things are going.

[Mel White]

Since monsters are such an ingrained piece of D&D I was considering introducing a monster into the demo, especially if they don't manage to get into a fight with one another; that way I can show off how Fight! works.
--Jeremiah

On the other hand, since monsters are such an ingrained piece of D&D, why not avoid them? Give your players something different--which The Burning Wheel is. If you throw a monster at them then they may not grasp the idea that 'The Sword' is about the PC's beliefs and goals coming into conflict. The players will think (may think, I guess) that it's a standard 'the party against the DM NPCs' type adventure. I haven't played 'The Sword', but I've played 'the Inheritance' a couple of times and I was hooked as soon as I started play the first time. The reason I liked it was because the game can be about PC vs PC conflict and there is a mechanism to address that conflict other than resorting to physical combat--the Duel of Wits.
I've introduced BW to a few new or beginning players. I've used a scenario much like 'the Sword' called 'Quest for the Holy Grail' in which there are no monsters. The macguffin--whether it is the sword or the grail--is there for the taking. It quickly became apparent to the players that the only thing standing between their character and the item were the other characters. Heck, you could make your own scenario. Call it 'the Lamp': the PCs start together in a poorly lit cave, having infiltrated their way into the lair of a bandit gang. Each wants the lamp: the first because he was hired to steal it for a powerful wizard, the second because the bandit gang stole it from his own master, the third because such a beautiful lamp will win for him the girl of his dreams, and the fourth because he hates the bandit leader and wants to take the leader's most prized possession and then brag about it. The PCs may or may not agree to cooperate to get the lamp out of the lair. Fighting over the lamp in the lair, though, would alert the bandits. So they'll either have to agree to take it out quietly--the players can conduct some versus tests or even (whispered) duels of wit; and then agree who's going to carry it! If they come to an agreement over who carries it, you can have a couple of versus tests (observe vs stealth(?)) or even a fight with a few bandits to get out of the lair. Then you know the PCs are going to rub the lamp--out from which pops a djinn of legend. Who says, of course, "For freeing me, I shall grant you one wish. Which of you earns my reward?" Then see what happens. If the players cooperate all through or don't free the djinn and bring the lamp to one of the sponsors, have the sponsor reward just the associated PC, indicating that the others get no reward, from him. See what happens then...the slighted PCs will either try to convince the sponsor to reward them as well or they will try to take the reward from the first PC.
The key in all of this is that when PCs are debating or arguing courses of action, be quick to suggest a versus test or a duel of wits. Force the players to make a decision, have a conflict, or move on. Endless player debate will not be satisfying for you or the players.
As far as Fight goes, in the introductory games I've played we haven't used it. Intuitively, I recommend against using Fight in the first game with new players. That may be because I'm not that comfortable with the Fight rules, so take this with a grain of salt. What makes BW so appealing to me is that it doesn't have to be about the HTH combat--use bloody versus and resolve the fight in one roll of dice, and move on with the story. If you think you are going to be looking stuff up in the book during the Fight--don't do it in the first game. Highlight the Duel of Wits mechanic--it's really fun. Once you've hooked your friends, then add complexity.
Mel

[pseudoidiot]

On the other hand, since monsters are such an ingrained piece of D&D, why not avoid them? Give your players something different--which The Burning Wheel is. If you throw a monster at them then they may not grasp the idea that 'The Sword' is about the PC's beliefs and goals coming into conflict. The players will think (may think, I guess) that it's a standard 'the party against the DM NPCs' type adventure

Thanks for the advice, that's a really good point. I think if I do throw a monster fight in there, I'll try and set it up in such a way as to play the characters against each other. That's why I like the idea of using the Ophidia.

At the very least, I may just have a mock battle after the demo so they can see how Fight! works.

[Jake Norwood]

I have to uber-highly reccomend a mock battle and a mock DoW with every player, usually against each other, before game play. Once their PC's lives are on the line it's too late to be introducted to something as involved as Fight! and DoW.

Jake

[pseudoidiot]

That's true. At the very least, I can run them through an exchange or two of each. Thanks Jake!

[Thor]

The Sword scenario is intended to give context to a sample Duel of Wits, potential Fight! and a Resources test, so I think you're in good shape just going ahead and running it.

They may be interested in doing a Fight! anyway. It stands pretty well on its own. But the Duel of Wits, by its nature, really requires context in order to work.

[TimP]

Yeah, I wouldn't worry too much about getting everyone familiar with the mechanics before an intro scenario. That's the whole point of doing a game like this, right?

I've had good luck in the past just having players that are new to Fight! and BW describe what they want to do in plain English and then translating it to the mechanics for them.

[buzz]

I ran The Sword for an ENWorld Gameday, having play-tested it in advance with people from my regular HERO group. I added in the Ophidian as per the advice in the scenario.

The playtest was bumpy; I'd played BW before, but had never run it. My HERO crew really disliked DoW ("It gets in the way of the roleplaying"), and I think they're so used to mainstream "follow the plot" play that the idea that nothing was going to happen unless they took action was kind of alien to them. It really took the Ophidian creeping out of the darkness to start messing with them to get things going. Granted, part of your job as GM is to push the PC's buttons.

It went better at the actual Gameday, though it still took some prodding. The only downside was that, being more familiar with the scenario, we were done way before our slot ended. The demo nature of The Sword really stuck out this time. I'd keep that in mind when you run; you're not going to get 4-5 hours out of it. 2-3, maybe.

I think that a more involved scenario like The Inheritance (is that on the wiki yet?) is more fun. The PCs are really at odds in their Beliefs, and there's a timed event that prods the players into action. Of course, you need a big group to make it work.

You might also want to take a look at the "Burning THAC0" threads in which BWHQ uses BW for some more traditional D&D-style action. That might prove a better way to ease D&D players into it.

(I'd like to see an actual demo written up that's basically KotB with the serial numbers filed off. I think it'd be a great "crossover" scenario for introducing the game.)

[stormsweeper]

overall, i think 'the sword' is a great set-up for gamers with an indie-mindset, but i feel it's too close to home for those entrenched in the classic d+d idiom. they tend to have skewed expectations when seeing the 'adventuring party'.

Besides the setup for the mechanical parts Thor mentioned, I think this is actually the point of the scenario. Looting the room in the dungeon for the MacGuffin. I think anyone who has played D&D of any variety in the past thirty years could tell you the "normal" way this scenario would go down. But here the poitn is to turn it all upside down, and make the game about the exact bits skimmed over in a lot of tradiitonal play.