suggested ages

[gooderguy]

i had an interesting thought recently, when spending time with my 11 year old cousin. we were discussing fantasy novels and then he started asking if i was into MMORPGs and other sword and sorcery video games. then he asked what I think about D+D.

my answer went something along the lines of, i used to play it, it was fun, but i'm not a big fan anymore. i'm more into indie-rpgs. at that point, his face blanked and the conversation pretty much ended.

i'm not sure if i should have gone into the whole burning wheel introduction. i approached burning wheel from the forge-theory fed-up gamer mindset. i'm not sure someone coming straight from that impressionable 11-year-old mindset would be able to handle it (although i don't see why they couldn't, either)

does anyone have any thoughts on how young a group of players could be? could i conceivably run a BW adventure for 3 or 4 11-year olds? would they get it? would they enjoy it? has anyone done such a thing or ever heard of anyone doing such a thing?

[Thor]

Russell Hoyle (not sure he's still checking the forums, hi Russell!) ran a game for his 9 year-old daughter and 12 year-old son. Check out this thread (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=269097).

Every kid is different, of course, but I think 11 is not too young for Burning Wheel. I don't think it's any more difficult to grasp than D&D.

I can't say it with 100% certainty, but I don't recall any language issues that should give you pause either.

[gooderguy]

thanks for the link. maybe sometime this summer i'll try and convert them to the dark ways of the burning wheel.

thanks to being the 3rd child (5th grandchild), language issues are out of the picture with my cousin. he swears like a fiend even in front of his parents.

[Mel White]

This is not exactly answering your question, but I've recently started playing a variant D&D game that includes a couple of father-son duos. The boys are probably...11 or 12?
The variant uses alignment norms, which are modeled off of TSOY Keys (or Sweet 20 Keys) and are similar to Burning Wheel beliefs. For example, the norm of Chaotic Good means that the character earns 1 'experience' point (think of as artha) when he demonstrates his independence by helping someone.
Anyway, the kids 'get it'. They're very much in tune with basing their actions on how to gain 'experience' or, if necessary, reviewing their character's actions in order to see if an experience award was justified (much like the artha award sequence at the end of a phase in Burning Empires).
The DM described his rationale for using this type of system in the game, rather than the standard D&D experience system, which helped the players understand how to apply the system in play. So, I think middle school players would be well able to grasp the idea along the lines of 'Beliefs are what are important to your character, and indicate what your character (and you the player) want to do in the game.

Mel

[luke]

I started my brother on BW when he was 9.

-L

[gooderguy]

cool. so obviously it's do-able.

that being said, are there any substantial suggestions for changes to one's approach? introducing the concept of authorship to adolescents could be really cool, but I don't live near them so they'd have to continue it all on their own. i'm confident as an 'adult' (of sorts), i could run a game for them if they were willing, but what i really want is for one of them to be able to GM their own game.

i guess I'm having a hard time imagining an 11-year-old GM running a game for his friends. d+d is so video-game mindset compatable that it's second nature to an 11-year old, but the idea of artha awards might be hard to grasp, no? anyway, the idea seems kind of exciting.

i mean, all the books in the young adult section of the bookstore are fantasy genre now, thanks to harry potter, the tolkein movies and eragon. it'd be kind of interesting to see BW take up a grassroots growth among the adolescent population. most of us who play it (that i know) are 25+.

now my wheels are really spinning.

[stormsweeper]

I could have sworn I posted this earlier, but Action was running a game for his nephew (in the 6ish range?), although he stripped down some of the fussier bits.

[gooderguy]

i'm not so much worried about math, system, or language, but more-so the thematic content of beliefs and artha. without things like 'power-ups' and 'vorpal-swords' that are now all the rage thanks to the internet crack-games, will 11 year olds play and keep playing, or will they be like 'i want better armor so i kill the guy for it.' ?

is authorship enough or do most kids just want the shiny things? are kids gonna be into failure, which is a huge part of BW? that's what i'm most worried about, i think. i tell my adult players, 'i play to lose' cuz failed circles tests are my favorite part of the game. my cousin and his friends are gonna look at me like i'm nuts when i say that.

so i guess the big question is ... how should i approach the concept of failure as being okay, and even cool?

[santovendetta]

Just my two cents, I doubt you'll be able to convince the kids not to make strong characters. In my experience everyone starts out trying to make the coolest and most powerful character they can and then mature (or don't) on their own. That doesn't mean it wouldn't be fun to start them on the path, just don't try to push everything you've learned on them at once or you may scare them off.

[luke]

Start off with a small group -- two players is preferable.

Have them make characters together. Listen to their cues as they make characters. What are they interested in? Get them to spin those interests in conflicts. If they want armor? That's cool. It's a conflict.

I've found that Hart intuitively enjoys the failure as much as the success. He's immensely proud of the chainmail he accidentally tattooed on his wizard with a failed spell.

-L