The Price of the Wheel

[luke]

Hi all,

I need some honest feedback from the people who have been supporting Burning Wheel through its infancy.

What would you, who have already bought the game, think if the price were to go up?

It pains me to even think about it, but the truth is, things are changing. This endeavor was originally intended as a self-promoted hobby venture. It did quite well for itself, even at $15.

But as the first run is selling out, and the game is moving into distro, I stand to lose a lot of money selling at this price. It simply costs too much to get it on the shelves of a retailer, and therefore I'm losing $3 a set through distro.

I'm not villifying anyone. Really. Trust me, no one is making a mint off this game. But as we enter the second phase, I would like to make a little money so I can continue to go to cons and so I can produce more books. As it is, this summer is going to be a very tight squeeze monetarily. But there is nothing I want more than to continue to push this game.

So what do you, the fans and supporters of this game think? How would you feel if the price went up? What would you have paid for the game (not, "what's it worth" or "what I think i should go for"; what would you pay for a game like this)?

thanks for your honest feedback,
-Luke

[Lxndr]

With the caveat that I'm a cheap bastard and thus might be underselling you price-wise (and that I think most game prices these days are quite a rip-off, yet people including me will still pay for them a lot of the time):

I'd pay $20 - 25 for Burning Wheel as it stands without blinking an eye, and wouldn't be surprised if it sold for $30 (at which point the buzz surrounding the game would have eventually prompted me to pick it up, buy my eyes would've blinked).

[Ulfendar]

I've always felt Burning Wheel was a terrific bargin at $15, I would still consider it a great bargin at $20, and I wouldn't balk at paying $30. Above that would raise eyebrows for me. Honestly, even knowing it was a great game, I wouldn't spend more than $30 unless I was in a campaign I thought was going to last for a while. That is if I didn't own a copy already. Just my 2 cents.

-Drew Clowery

P.S. Don't feel bad about making money, you're putting out a quality product, and there's no reason you shouldn't see a profit.

[phredd]

No one should expect you to lose money on the proposition. $20 would still be a bargain and $30 would be in the realm of the reasonable for me too.

[Durgil]

Luke, you simply have to do what you need to do. I don't think anyone here expects you to go broke making such a wonderful gaming system. I personally agree with the three previous statements concerning price. My loyalty to HârnMaster has proven that I will some how come up with the money if the quality is there.

[luke]

thanks guys.

if anyone's interested, I started a more detailed discussion of pricing over in the forge publishing forum.
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=11266

-L

[Mad Hatter]

I think your game is worth the extra money. I think I would have been willing to pay between $25-$30.

[Durgil]

Not to under-cut you, Luke, but now that I just went out and bought a second copy of the game for $15 (+ $4 for UPS), you can go ahead and raise it up to $30 if you like :lol: .

[Thor Olavsrud]

Hey Luke,

Most games these days seem to be priced between $30 and $40, and a number of publishers are pushing the envelope at $50 (though these tend to be hardbacks with full color art).

I think $20 to $25 is fine. I would have willingly paid $30.

[LordSmerf]

I thought that i would toss in my input before heading over to the Forge...

Basically, if this game had cost more than $20 i would never have bought it... Now that i have it, i would gladly pay $30, but at entry i would not have made the purchase... I don't know enough about retail sales, but i know that unless i have heard a lot of good stuff about a game my poor self is unwilling to drop more than about $20 on it. So while i may walk into my local store and see something that looks cool, a $30+ pricetag is a deal-breaker. I'd get some other input but basically: This game is well worth $30, but if i was still unfamiliar with the Wheel a $30 pricetag would leave me that way...

Thomas

[criamon]

The initial price is what sold me originally, and also a key factor in my being able to convice others to buy. I don't know if I would have bought at a higher price, but I would certainly think twice about it (not now that I've read it, but when I was still in a state of ignorance).

Before I read it, I think any price beyond $28 and I would expect better artwork and a more thourough vetting of the system. In other words, I think I would be disapointed in spending the cash and finding out that some systems were in need of revisions such as have been presented on the website here. Don't get me wrong,... I love having the discussions and in-depth rules explorations on the site and I love that new material is offered so freely. I think for alot more money though, I would rather that the books, as is, be updated with the most thouroughly hashed out and workable rules.

Incidently, just to plug a friend, if you do need more artwork for some future edition I have a friend trying to break into the business who is much much better at illustration that much of what I've seen published. If you want I could forward you her portfolio website.

Just my 2 cents.

[AndyAction]

Luke: $30 is good for the set. At $15/book, you'll still be undercutting most RPGs out there - as well as besting them.

[DaGreatJL]

$30 for a complete game is an extreme deal. Anybody who says differently is silly. D&D, the game considered to be the most popular/best selling/whatever, costs over $100 to have the basic set. And as for 'art quality' or anything else, have any of you seen what used to pass for game books? Pick up 2nd Edition D&D, or anything before it. Really.

[Durgil]

For those who stated that they think the game is worth the higher price now but would have probably passed up the game originally if it were at a higher price initially, keep in mind that that was when it was relatively unknown. Now after several awards and a larger and still growing community, now might be the time to raise the price (especially if it's starting to cost the creator money).

[sirjaguar]

Like just about everyone else, I think Burning Wheel was an excellent deal at $15. I feel lucky that I got in on the deal when I did. At $20 it would still be a pretty good deal (I, too, am cheap). I know most RPGs nowadays are at least $25.00 a book, so I really appreciate Luke wanting to make BW affordable.

I was going to say that for $25 or $30 I would expect a revised edition with corrections and some of the new rules that have been discussed on the website. But now that I've written that, I'm wrong. BW is almost 500 pages of rules. That's easily worth $30. It's just that I'd _rather_ it stay $15, because then it's so easy to convince someone to buy it.

Lawson

[rafial]

I've already expressed my views on the issue, but I'll chime in here to just add my voice to the cavalcade. At $15, BW is an insane bargain. $20 is still a crazy bargain, $25 is damn cheap, and $30 is probably what it should be.

[Kane]

I'd agree that the original price of $15 was a significant incentive to buy this game way back when it first came out. (I'm agent #171) But now that you've gotten lots of good buzz and BW is popping up at my FLGS, I would definitely agree that you can safely increase the price. I think $25 would be about right.

[8bitjunkie]

I am in the same boat that if it had been more than $15, I probably would not of bought it. Now, that I have it, I would gladly pay up to $25-30 for the set.
Some sort of barrier to entry here for some potential customers...how about making an intro rules download or something...enough to satisfy curiosity about the game. It might be what is needed to take some of the "risk" away for some prospecting players with an increase in price :D

[8bitjunkie]

Just another wacky thought for distro...you have two books....if they are revised and perhaps made as a hardback (still the same size of course, I am thinking similar to Sorcerer)...couldnt you charge $25 for each? You also have the Magic and Monster Burners that could be hardback and $25 each.
There are just some books that not all the players in a Burning Wheel campaign will need and with the addition of a hardcover you could bump to $25 per. Each book is sold on its own merits....just random thoughts :D

btw- I would dig a hardcover Burning Wheel book and would pay a tad extra for it!

[Blackberry]

If it were to go hardback, I'd like to see the BW and CB combined into one. That I would pay $25-$30 for.

[Hawkwood]

Hi all,

What would you, who have already bought the game, think if the price were to go up?

-Luke

I just bought the game for $15. The low price was certainly an incentive. However, $20 - 25 certainly wouldn't be out of the question.

NT

[Viper]

honestly, I think you could get $15 per book ($30 for the set) If you look at D&D, and granted, they're a juggernaut, you need to spend at least $40 to run a game (PHB & DMG), and you'll probably be spending another $20 for the MM. So, with BW, you're getting a full game for 1/2 the price. It's not like your selling stapled-up stacks of photocopies, here. The books are very nice looking and well produced. Hell, if you set the price point at $30, you can give people special discounts at cons and sell it for $25 while still making a profit.

[Ubby]

honestly, I think you could get $15 per book ($30 for the set) If you look at D&D, and granted, they're a juggernaut, you need to spend at least $40 to run a game (PHB & DMG), and you'll probably be spending another $20 for the MM. So, with BW, you're getting a full game for 1/2 the price. It's not like your selling stapled-up stacks of photocopies, here. The books are very nice looking and well produced. Hell, if you set the price point at $30, you can give people special discounts at cons and sell it for $25 while still making a profit.

You may spend $60 or so to run a D&D game, but the fact is its D&D. Its name and prominence still mean something. People's consumer mentality is to buy expensive name brands in various products if it has a certain reputation or tradition, even when generic equivalents that are as good exist. (BTW, I'm not calling BW a generic equivalent, on the contrary I'm a faithful convert, I'm just illustrating a point.) The majority of people won't compare D&D at $40/$60 + and BW at $15 in a vacuum and go "no-brainer".

I bought BW on its merits by reading the samples pdfs after receiving a recommendation from a friend and esteemed gamer. But in all honesty, if it cost more than $25, I'd probably pass.

[adriayna]

Luke,
Did you consider pricing them differently? For example, if the books are being carried in the stores, the $30 price tag isn't a bad deal (especially when you compare what its up against --32 page black and white suppliments going for 14.99; most hardcover game books now reaching up into the high 30's to early $40 dollar price range).

Then, to appease your ethics, you can still sell the books for a lower price at Cons ($15-20) to generate interest (as that is the way you've gotten the game off the ground to start). I wouldn't have the game or be playing it had I not participated in one of the demos at a con.

PDF sales are also an option you may want to look into.

[Rindu]

Honestly, I would not have purchased BW for $30. The low price helped me get into it.

However, now that I own it, I think it is worth $30, but that ain't what you asked about.

[Calypso]

I hate to say it, because I know the profit ratios are great, but PDF sales aren't the way to go. There's just a limit to what you'll want to put up in electronic format online, and the gritty feel of a bound book in a gamer's hand is not to be trifled with. Sure, I can print a pdf (I did for the abstractions, had to!), but it's not the same as a book.

Book pricing should be a good deal. 19.95 maybe for the books together, or 12.95 separately. I know our group would have liked 2 red books for our first night.

Alternately, you could go 29.95 for both and 16.95ish for one, but I really think that should wait until you've got more than a thousand people running around telling everyone how great your game is (and we are, Luke, we are). If you really want to get this puppy in gear, 19.95 is as high as you'll go for at least another print run. After you hit the 20$ mark, people start expecting brand-name recognition or somesuch. Sure, we'll buy D&D at 40$, but there's a million other people playing, so it must be good (or so goes the thinking...). It's harder to get somebody to shell out more than 20$ for any game they've never heard of, no matter how awesome you tell them it is.

[KingLord]

I'd have to say that the low price point is one of the main reasons I picked up the game in the first place, but even though I really knew nothing of the game when I saw the price point I was a little shocked. 15.00 for both books struck me as very low for 2 books.

There's a lot of marketing pyschology I won't even bother to touch on, and you don't want me to anyway as a marketing major...BUT I will say that you should be totally safe charing $19.99 for two books. $24.99 would make people who are totally unaware of what they are getting flinch I think, but $19.99 would still seem like a good deal. In my eyes the 15.00 was like an OB2, 19.99 is OB3, and 24.99 an OB4. God damnit Luke, see what you've done to me! :P

EDIT: Actually, something that you seriously might consider doing is doing a print run of standard copies, and having a limited run of a hardback special edition, or something like that. Depending on what all goes into this fabled "special edition" you could get a bit more turn around on it than on the standard ones, since you could charge somewhere between $39.99-$49.99. I'm usually a sucker for special editions though, so I shouldn't be the final say on this matter. My guess though, would be that a game like this that seems to have a dedicated core base would benefit from that. Also, they make really nice show pieces at cons. :wink:

[Manicrack]

Hm, the low price deffinetly made me buy it without much thinking.
If it had been 20$ I probably would have read the first chapter before buying it(ok, i did read part of it before I bought it)
25$ I deffinetly would have asked several people what they think about the system. And I would have made sure I had people to play with.
30$: I am very often broke, I hardly never have 30 bucks at my disposal. I reallt need some kind of part time job. I probably woudl have sneaked around the ame for months before I would have bought it. Of course fist I would have a read a few chapters and gotten people's opinion.

If I were you, I would go up to somewhere between 20$ and 25$.
That sound like a reasonable prize to me.


-Crack

[BradfordFerguson]

I would have easily paid $20 for the set, especially after the 4 hour demo game. Before the game, I still would have done it. I mentioned to Luke that he should raise his prices at Origins, before I had seen this thread.

[Wuxing]

$15 a pop is an absolute steal. I can see many folks picking it up with price as the main reason. I completely understand raising the price. I think you should and I also think you should do whatever needs to be done to avoid being in the red.

I think $30 is fair based on quality, but I already love the game. $25 would still be a bargain based on the current rpg market. I volunteer to bash and flame anyone who would claim you are a sell out, capitalist pig or anything else for trying to keep the game in print without going broke doing it. Of course start charging $60 a pop and I might change my tune. :P

[SirEktar]

After shipping and customs charges (boo!), it's becoming a bit more expensive that I had initially thought. A non-DRM pdf is starting to look more attractive. Why non-DRM? With the recent changes and rule modifications, I'd like the ability to alter my pdf with the additions.

[BradfordFerguson]

Since you seem to be politically sensitive... Though your politics may be against it, you should consider printing in China. If you think their workers are taken advantage of, then consider this: as their economy grows, their workers will be paid more and more, in safer conditions. A lot of people print in China, there is a lag between printing and getting the product though, so you would need to get something printed two months before expecting to have it since shipping takes a while.

[BradfordFerguson]

There's a copy of BW on Ebay currently going for $31 which means there was someone ELSE willing to pay $30 for the pair.

[Conniving Wolf]

After playing the demos at Ubercon, I was surprised to see it at $15, even if, at the time, I thought that it was for each book. When I realized that it was for both books and you get an autograph, a pin and a sticker I was ecstacitc (sp?). I wouldn't mind to spend $30 just to get an updated version, since it is such a great system.

I think it was the sticker that sold me...

[Pheel]

RE: Ebay It was up to $35 the last I checked...

I think $25-30 is safe for a reprint. Whilst I like the format and the artwork, I think a lot of buyers expect more art at the "standard" RPG price of $35-39.95.

Since BW seems to be continually evolving, and pdfs have been discussed, what about selling BW as a subscription service. This model may work well, esp. for a small publisher. There may be enough passionte fans of BW who'd subscribe for continual updates, rules changes, scenarios, etc., and that may give a more dependable income stream.

Columbia Games does something similar with their Harn publications -- you can sign up to be automatically shipped new stuff at a 10% discount.

Anyway, the game kicks and we all want to see it continue to burn.

[Grong]

I wasn't here during its infancy therefore i dont have much say but i say go for it raise the price this game is spreading by word of mouth so you'll get back the lost money plus more i bet. :D

[Thornhammer]

$30 for the set would still be quite reasonable.

-Thornhammer

[Viper]

After playing the demos at Ubercon, I was surprised to see it at $15, even if, at the time, I thought that it was for each book. When I realized that it was for both books and you get an autograph, a pin and a sticker I was ecstacitc (sp?). I wouldn't mind to spend $30 just to get an updated version, since it is such a great system.

I think it was the sticker that sold me...

Pin? PIN? I got no PIN! DAMN YOU ABZU! That's it, back to d20 tomorrow! :wink:

[Thunder_God]

As someone who is hoping to get it via a friend in GC and is yet to pay for it, I feel 25-30$ is a comfortable price which I'll be happy to pay.
35-40$ seems a "logical" price, but I think that is only in comparison to other RPGs which sell for the same but do feel as if they cost too much. That is to say, it'd be on level with the market, but the market may be a bit steep.