The Black Knight vs. Eldrissa Looks-West: Commentary

[Yagathai]

Rules discussion, commentary, kibitzing, bitching, moaning and Pete's groupies go here.

For reference:

The Black Knight: http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/showpost.php?p=40760&postcount=33

Eldrissa Looks-West: http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/showpost.php?p=40727&postcount=29

[Kublai]

How do I play again? What die roller do we use? Is this by honor or are you reffin', Yag? Also, I'd like to see Eldrissa's Grey Scale before we begin.

[Tobias]

Yag PM'd me that we're on honor system here. So, initial positioning in the other thread, I presume?After that's decided, script the first 3?

[Yagathai]

There's this game called the Burning Wheel, see, and...

Oh, well you can follow the example of any of the recent Fight! threads, but in brief:

Post your initial positioning, figure out how many dice you each have, roll it. I like the Irony Games email dice roller, which keeps things honest, but use whatever you two agree on -- I'm not reffing. After that, post your scripts in "invisible" white text, then reveal them when you've both posted and... resove from there.

If people are really concerned about honestly and peeking, you can PM me your scripts and I'll post them, but resolution is up to you two.

[IvanHo]

Ok, initial positioning: Sp 6, +1 bonus for longer weapon, +2d for defensive stance = 9d.

Can you do that? Can you use stance bonus to positioning on initial positioning?

I'd say no, as there are no penalties and because you have to declare it at the top of the volley, which haven't started yet.

(Not that I wouldn't like it to be so, would make my odds slightly better against that blasted long-legged elf....)

/Uffe

[Tobias]

Good point.

I actually rolled 7 dice first, and came up with 3 sucs. Then thought I forgot the positioning dice, so added the last 2.

So either way, I beat the black knight, but you're question's a good one - I don't have an answer to.

edit: oh, and kublai, what grey scale? Everything's black, except those things marked with a G.

[Kublai]

The grey scale is your physical tolerances grey scale. I just wanted to see what your Supie and other wounds were at. I imagine it's 3 5 7 8 9 10, right?

Also, you should be rolling 10 dice for your positioning: 6 speed, +1 for higher reflexes, +1 for longer weapon, +2 for defensive stance.

I should be rolling 6 dice: 4 speed, +2 for aggressive stance.

So I posted my exchange. What do we do now?

[Yagathai]

Luke seems to think that you need to be singing for four actions, Tobias, not two. Kublai, what do you think?

[Drekk]

I notice Kublai did not include +2D for his stance during initial positioning. Do stance dice only come into play after initial positioning, even if they are part of an instinct?

p.s. CharBurner says "Burning Bright" actions are 2 x ob, with ob being 10-grief.

[Kublai]

I forgot to add my 2D stance dice in the initial positioning. If your instinct says you enter in stance, then I see no reason why not to add them. However, I won't add those in now, too late.

And yes, Burning Bright takes Actions X Obstacle. His Ob is 2 (10 - Grief of 8), so it takes 4 actions.

Did he make a mistake? I didn't look at his script past Volley 1 yet. If so, poor guy! But no going back now! DIEEE!!!

Also, Tobias, please use BW terminology. Dodge is not an action, so I guess you mean Avoid?

[Tobias]

Yeah, I made a mistake on the burning bright - I posted my exchange without benefit of the book (thus also the incorrect Avoid terminology). I'd obviously like to correct it to make me sing the song for 2 more actions, but I'll let my opponent tell me whether he thinks that cool, or whether he prefers a school of hard knocks for me (which I would also find cool enough).

Anyway, I'll roll my volley 1 now.

Edit: Ok, results are that the B&B does not work, and we're still at Eldrissa's lunging, Blacky's outside. How should we handle color/results for each volley? Or shall we just do color at the end of the exchange?

Edit: oh, and I'll forfeit an action to be able to continue singing, if you think that's an appropriate 'punishment'. I'll await Kublai's judgement on the song. Feel free to look at V2 now, Kublai.

Edit: oh, kublai, if you want my e-mail for use with the irony games diceroller, we can swap. I'm also fine without using the mail.

[Kublai]

I'm playing hard ball. This Arena ain't for noobs! Stick to your script as originally written.

I also forfeited an action in the 2nd Volley.

Winner should post the color for that volley. So, please go ahead and write up the results of Volley 1.

I'll reveal my 2nd volley after you post the color.

DIIIEEEE!!!

[Drekk]

Not that it would have made a difference, but shouldn't Kublai have gotten +2D to his positioning for his stance in V1? Also, it seems a little odd for Tobias to use stance dice for a neutral maneuver ("maintain"). Granted, the book puts no limitations on using stance for positioning, but I just want to confirm that it's allowed, for my own reference (and tactics).

[Tobias]

Ok, i'll stick to my script. Leaves me the question whether I can forfeit an action to start singing, again, or even better, continue singing (though I presume, and am totally cool with, the fact that that's probably out).

So, Luke: can I forfeit an action to 'start singing'?

Tx!

[Kublai]

When you forfeit an action, you can change positioning, an action, and a tandem action all at once.

I myself forfeited an action in Volley 2.

Will you?

I am ready to reveal.

[Kublai]

Not that it would have made a difference, but shouldn't Kublai have gotten +2D to his positioning for his stance in V1? Also, it seems a little odd for Tobias to use stance dice for a neutral maneuver ("maintain"). Granted, the book puts no limitations on using stance for positioning, but I just want to confirm that it's allowed, for my own reference (and tactics).

I simply forgot to use my stance positioning dice! Silly me.

There is no limitation on using stance dice to position. Although I'd like to see it personally! I don't think Aggressive dice should be used when withdrawing, not Defensive dice used when Closing. However, that's just me and not the way it's written.

[Tobias]

From reading your one-but-last post, I'd only be able to change 1 tandem action, and I need two. So no, I won't be changing my script. Let the chips fall where they may!

I'll reveal/roll mine now.

[luke]

So, Luke: can I forfeit an action to 'start singing'?

Tx!

Singing is a tandem action. According to the forfeiting rules on page 163, you have to change an action to change a tandem action.

Which means that you cannot finish your song. You have to start over: You can't forfeit enough actions to finish the song in consecutive actions. Essentially, you've scripted, "stop before I'm done."

In a home game, I'd let it slide. But in a tourney match, I encourage everyone to play by the letter of the rules. However, that's just me. I'm not reffing these matches!

-L

[luke]

Also, Tobias,

Page 162 BW outlines the Stance rules. Unless I'm misreading your script, you've subtracted dice from your skill (which is the Old Way) instead of raising your obstacle (which is the Revised Way). Your obstacle to Strike from Defensive Stance at Lunging Distance while Maintaining is -- anyone? anyone? -- 4. Good class.

Little Radek, you want to break it down for us?

Ob 1 base, +2 Ob for Striking in Defensive Stance and +1 Ob for Lunging.

Does that check out? Does that make sense?

Either way, both Strikes miss.

[Tobias]

That's cool. I'll edit my post. And, obviously, I should have started out in agressive stance. Hey, you live, you learn (all over again).

[Tobias]

Ok, since Luke mentioned I should use +2 ob instead of -2 dice, I needed to roll them, and I did. This ends up as a B3 Incidental.

The B&B I was lucky against, I will gladly add e-mail adresses to the Irony server (at which point it will betray me, naturally :) )

[Kublai]

No need to show me the dice! I trust you. I, myself, am tossing my "pink meanies" right here on my desk at work!

[Kublai]

OK! The First Exchange is done. Looks like the fast-footed elf might win! Let's script our second exchange.

[ChrisG]

I, myself, am tossing my "pink meanies" right here on my desk at work!

That sounds *so* NSFW. :)

[Kublai]

Tobias, you should be rolling 8D for your Avoid. 6 speed + 2D from Defensive Stance!

(God, I can't believe I just told you that. :()

[Kublai]

OK, my gambit failed once again. I am forfeiting my second action in Volley two to change my first action.

[Tobias]

Ok. I've rolled and revealed my V2, and I've rolled (but not revealed) my V3 as I cannot forfeit or change anyway.

I'm hella busy, sorry if I'm slow.

[Kublai]

Oh boy.

Your Obstacle is 2. Anything over adds to my Hesitation.

Re-roll thoses two 6's. Singing is magic and automatically open-ended!

[Kublai]

Tobias, I should've caught this MUCH sooner, but you can't use Defensive dice for positioning and the action in the same volley. Maybe that's my fault for telling you so, I guess I lost track of your character. This whole match is a clusterfrak.

As for your strike, you're in Defensive Stance and Lunging, so that's a Base Ob4 to hit me. So a Mark hit! I'm taking it on the arm. Care to move it to another location?

[luke]

I think your BB worked if you discount the Def Stance dice for the action. Which means it's an incidental. But whatever.

[Tobias]

Tobias, I should've caught this MUCH sooner, but you can't use Defensive dice for positioning and the action in the same volley. Maybe that's my fault for telling you so, I guess I lost track of your character. This whole match is a clusterfrak.

As for your strike, you're in Defensive Stance and Lunging, so that's a Base Ob4 to hit me. So a Mark hit! I'm taking it on the arm. Care to move it to another location?

Ahhh.. that's why I was using only 6 dice to start with! Stupid to have made that 'earlier' correction. So how shall I fix this? Re-roll? Subtract 1 s?

The strike's good on the arm, no need to move.

[Tobias]

Ok. I guess we can, even with all the errors we made, call Ex2 finished, since the errors don't matter for the state, right?

The state being that we're at the top of Ex3, in my lunging, and you'll be hesitating (Run Screaming) for 3 more actions, right?

I don't have the book (at work again), so hopefully my Ex will be up in about 10 hours - unless I have another 13-hour workday, like yesterday.

[Yagathai]

Run, Pete, Run!!!

[Kublai]

I like the leisurely pace of this fight. It's like being on death row for 20 years before your date.

Let us script Exchange 3. I am hesitating for 3 actions.

[Kublai]

Ha! Sure, wait until I run screaming before you start rolling poorly! ;)

[Kublai]

6D at ob4 (or 2?)= 3,1,5,3,3,2 = 1s = a wild miss!

Your Obstacle is Base 1 + 1 for Lunging for a total Ob2.

[Kublai]

And oh yeah - you need to make a wonderment Steel check at this point, I think?

Three things.

1) You've sung only 4 out of the 160 actions it takes to sing Council-Caller.

2) You have to roll to see if your song is sung correctly. the Ob is 10 minus your Perception of 4 for a total Obstacle of 6.

3) If sung correctly, the Wonderment takes effect after a total exchanges equal to my will, which is 4.

[Tobias]

Ah ok, so that's how songs work.. good enough. but does that mean you take wonderment steel check from the burning bright as well?

[GreedyAlgorithm]

Yep, it takes 4 exchanges for wonderment "versus" Will 4. I would guess there's no need to roll for the singing until wonderment actually does occur?

[Tobias]

Ok then. (on the songs).

Please presume I'll be singing council-caller all fight long. After all, I want people to witness either of our wins!

Kublai: I presume that earlier, you were offering the other arm? I'll shift the blow to your chest, if that's the case.

Edit: and oh yeah, it's probably been noticed already, but weathersong has no duration listed, does it?

[Kublai]

Indeed. 4 exchanges after you successfully sang Burning Bright, I am again required to take a Steel test at base obstacle plus successes over. Yay!

[Thor Olavsrud]

Ah ok, so that's how songs work.. good enough. but does that mean you take wonderment steel check from the burning bright as well?

After you've sung it for four exchanges. You'd have to keep singing it to produce Wonderment.

[Kublai]

Ah! Thanks, Thor.

So Songs with immediate effect don't usually produce Wonderment, like Burning Bright, unless you purposely continue singing!

That clears it up for me, as well!

So no wonderment tests this battle.... or at least I pray to GOD we end this before then!

[Tobias]

That's quirky (what Thor wrote), but whatever, that's ok. So whatever song you sing, AFTER the point you test to see whether it is succesfull, you keep singing for X exchanges, and then you test again for wonderment?

In that case, I would've kept singing after the BB, obviously, but no matter, this is ok.

And I hope your armor does fail at some point... I've been wondering whether I should've taken the +VA, but against your pink horrors, all is for nought (at least on that Mark result).

Also, I think you lost armor three times now - in 1.2 and 2.3 as well. So your handy update on armor (thanks!) should have 1 less somewhere, no?)

[Kublai]

My armor has indeed failed thrice!

Exchange 1, Volley 2 - point from my chest.

Exhange 2, Volley 3 - point off my left arm.

Exchange 3, Volley 3 - point off my right arm.

[Thor Olavsrud]

That's quirky (what Thor wrote), but whatever, that's ok. So whatever song you sing, AFTER the point you test to see whether it is succesfull, you keep singing for X exchanges, and then you test again for wonderment?

You don't test again. A single successful test will cause Wonderment if you continue singing. However, some Spell Songs have no effect OTHER than Wonderment. In that case, you test after you've sung it for the requisite number of Exchanges.

[Tobias]

Ok then, that's all clear now! Thanks

[Kublai]

Tobias, please roll up your Maintain for ex4 volley1! I'm biting my nails here!

[Tobias]

I rolled up my V1, Kublai. You may even close!

[Kublai]

Moral Victory!!

[Tobias]

Posted up my V1.

[Kublai]

Sadly, I think I just closed in on my own death.

I am at my lunging and your OPTIMAL! Yikes!

[Kublai]

I think we all go through a dark time of mistrust on these honor-bound fights. I was there, ask Luke! But, trust is all we have.

All praise the Pink Horrors.

[Tobias]

The chivalrous one isn't dead yet!

Vive l'armour!

[Tobias]

What did you mistrust, Kublai?

And you should build a shrine to that armor! :)

[Kublai]

Careful! I see you've written that you're going to use your stance dice for both positioning and striking. Please choose before proceeding.

[Tobias]

yeah, made an error there. I chose, but the dice, they were not a-smilin this time.

My Ex5 is up.

[Tobias]

I'm afraid that after that volley, you really ARE going to be transfixed.

[Kublai]

Brutal!

GG!

[Tobias]

Thanks for that, Kublai. I've always thought Elves were monsters with spears, and your knight is an excellent opponent to prove it by. GG yourself.

Of course, Eldrissa is twinked with Burning Bright and Sprinting Training, but without scary call-ons, and with passable social skills as well - I'm never going to disrespect a 4LP elf again... !

Would you like to do the color?

[Kublai]

No, the color belongs to the victor!

[Yagathai]

That was a fun match!

[Tobias]

I am still hella busy at work. Will try to get some color out ASAP.

[Tobias]

I got a PM that - correctly, I think - mentions that elven chain should have given me +1 ob for the fight, as I have no armor training.

Since no blow landed, I guess we're going to have to retcon that to one step lower (plated leather, IIRC?), so there's no ob penalty?

Sorry about that!

[luke]

Tobias,

Check out page 185 of the BW: Armor Training. That's a +1 Ob to all your tests.

I think that would have significantly changed the fight, despite your awesome skillz with the dice.

-L

[Tobias]

Yeah luke, I know (about the ob).

Which is why I suggest we retcon my char to having plated leather instead. No blow landed, and she wasn't hindered by any armor penalty, so obviously she wasn't wearing chain? :)

And my dice skills are limited to clicking on die roller buttons. :)

[Kublai]

grumblegrumblegrumble

[Yagathai]

Indeed.

[Tobias]

Yeah, that peer review thing really would've been good. Sorry.

[ChrisG]

Bah, everyone knows Elves are cheaters!

[Tobias]

Apparently, there's much dislike about my 'double-dipping stance dice' and the ob penalty I should have taken from the chain mail.

I'm not aware from double-dipping stance dice - I know I've accidentally posted that I would use the dice for both positioning and strike in one volley, but once it came to rolling, I noticed my error, and chose not to use them for positioning. If there are any other mistakes, I'd like to know.

As to the armor penalty: yes, I should have had that, but it was never my intention to saddle my character with an ob penalty. Had I read the rules better, I would have chosen plated leather, or something else that gives no penalty, at least. Thus my suggestion for retconning.

I am not interested in doing the fight over. I will however, if Kublai requests, forfeit the match to him.

Edit: to be clear: without any hard feelings.

[Drekk]

Looks to me like you double-dipped on stance dice in:

E1 V1 (and thus should have had only 3 successes on Avoid). Also, I think each Avoid should have had a +1 ob because you scripted an Avoid in the other action of that volley. So Kublai’s B&B would have worked. (and by 2 successes if the Avoid penalty also applies to Natural Defenses.) So Kublai should have been able to close on the next volley.

E2 V1 (same as E1 V1, you also forgot the Avoid penalty, though we don’t know what the natural defenses would have been, so maybe B&B would not have worked this time).

E2 V2 (same as E1 V1, and it looks like the B&B would have worked again). Avoid penalty would also apply to Singing, so Kublai’s hesitation should have been shorter.

[Tobias]

Hmmmm, that IS serious.

Shame that wasn't caught when it happened.

My offer of my forfeit still stands.

[Kublai]

No one knows how to play BW! Not even I! :)

Yag will make the final call. I am just a player.

[Tobias]

Erm. So's Yag. Perhaps Luke can make the call.

Edit: oh, and on Drekk's reply (good searching, Drekk), I didn't actually double-dip in E2 V1, right? (But possibly got the +1 ob from the double avoid, indeed).

[TimP]

No one knows how to play BW! The Truth! ;)

[Drekk]

Edit: oh, and on Drekk's reply (good searching, Drekk), I didn't actually double-dip in E2 V1, right? (But possibly got the +1 ob from the double avoid, indeed).

According to your script on E2 V1, you added 2D to both of your Avoids (at Kublai's suggestion). For action 1, this gave you 2 more successes. Meanwhile, you positioned with 10D. So yeah, looks like you doubled on that volley, too. :baddog:

[luke]

Yag's running this show. It's between him, Tobias, and Pete. I'm merely an ill-informed observer.

-L

[Drekk]

Yag's running this show. It's between him, Tobias, and Pete. I'm merely an ill-informed observer.

Yeah, I was just responding to Tobias' inquiry. It'll be up to them to resolve the problem. Perhaps a DoW (not)? :)

[Yagathai]

After some three-way (not the dirty kind!) discussion, we have come to an equitable solution. At Tobias' very honorable suggestion, his character will forfeit the victory and pass to the loser's pool. The Black Knight advances. The brackets have been updated to feature this.

Thanks to everyone for being grown-ups about this! If RPG.net has taught me anything, it's that you just can't take that for granted in online gamer circles. We've really got something special here at the BW forums (the occasional knucklehead invasions nonwithstanding).

[donbaloo]

Thanks to everyone for being grown-ups about this! If RPG.net has taught me anything, it's that you just can't take that for granted in online gamer circles. We've really got something special here at the BW forums (the occasional knucklehead invasions nonwithstanding).

This is not the Yag that I have come to know and love. Was that at least accompanied by a snarl as you were typing? Say it was....

[Kublai]

::from within the Surgeon's Tent::
"I won?"

I think we all learned something from this fight, yes? Armor Clumsy Penalties, using Stance dice, and Elven Songs! Three lessons for the price of one!

The Arena is serving its purpose well.

[Tobias]

Armor Clumsy Penalties - yeah. Was aware of them, but not that the superior supa-elven chain didn't negate the untrained aspect. Which, in retrospect, is just fine.

Stance Dice: another good one. I wonder though, say you have a creature with reflexes 9, that starts a volley in defensive stance, not using those dice to position with, could that creature script:

1. Avoid with +2 bonus dice from defensive stance
2. Switch to Agressive stance
3. Strike with +2 bonus to strike from agressive stance.

?

Would a variation be allowed where the defensive stance dice were used to position instead of giving the bonus to Avoid?

Double Avoids: Does doing a double avoid make each avoid penalise the other?

Elven Songs: yeah, that almost errata (or at least, clarification, somewhere)-worthy!

Tx for the fight, Kublai!

[Yagathai]

This is not the Yag that I have come to know and love. Was that at least accompanied by a snarl as you were typing? Say it was....

Private messaging is a wonderful thing.