Inconspicuous Death

[LordSmerf]

We've got some ideas kickicng around about Killing without being Noticed, as well as the use of the Inconspicuous skill in combat...

At the moment we're working on a "Silent Killing" skill maybe we'll call it "Murder" anyway this is killing people when you catch them unawares... It's essentially like any other skill except that if you succeed then your target dies... Current thinking is: Base Obstacle is opponent's Perception... Modifiers for lighting, Observation Training, Armor, Comrades, whatever... We'll let you know how that goes...

The Inconspicuous in combat stuff is really exciting to me, but i'll wait until we have some more time to whack some of the bugs out and get some playtesting done...

Thomas

[Kublai]

I think this is ok, but I know we have handled it before in some of our past games. Basically, if you make your Stealth test and he fails his Perception, you can move up on him and kill him without much problem. The story takes precedent and reduces the need for dice rolls.

I am still interested in what you come up with, of course! :)

[LordSmerf]

Well, we sort of considered that, but killing people silently and quickly is a skill in it's own right. The basic thing we're dealing with is that sneaking around is not quite the same as getting up behind someone and then either striking an instantly fatal blow, or one that at least ensures a minimum of noise and struggle while you finish them off...

Thomas

[luke]

Well, we sort of considered that, but killing people silently and quickly is a skill in it's own right. The basic thing we're dealing with is that sneaking around is not quite the same as getting up behind someone and then either striking an instantly fatal blow, or one that at least ensures a minimum of noise and struggle while you finish them off...

Thomas

I really fundamentally disagree with a special rule/special skill for this. I think the system as it stands equips players very well for such situations: Make Stealth or Incon vs Perception. If the attacker is successful, he arrives undetected. Then you make a Strike attack or a Get Inside move -- script Get Inside, Lock.

Make a Steel test for the victim. If they hesitate they may take their normal Steel results. Don't break this rule. Doing so deprotagonizes characters. There are no mook rules in Burning Wheel -- what applies to NPCs applies to PCs -- so imagine having your character snuck up behind and not being able to choose Run Screaming.

Still, a character who fails a Steel test does not get Natural Defenses, so any competent Brawler could leap on someone from behind and grab them -- Get Inside and Lock -- before they have a chance to get away.

Attributing murder of this sort to a special skill is idealizing and mythologizing something beyond its actuality. I strongly believe it doesn't take any special skill beyond a Stealthy and a Knife skill to murder someone. All those ninjitsu nerve-strikes... ya know, they're a myth. They don't work. Really. It doesn't take anything special to be able to murder. And this system reflects that -- such ability should be open to everyone.

Now this is a fantasy game, so if you wanted to create additional and special rules for a world where ninjitsu worked, then that's fine (like the Tai Chi rules, for example). But don't take away or penalize my own innate ability to walk quietly behind you and bash your brains in with a rock.

Lastly, don't bypass the PTGS for combat/weapon damage. You'll break the game and end up very dissatisfied.

-L

ps I know about the Brawling Fainting rules, and I think they are a good middle ground for this -- you must achieve a wound result that causes lost dice, and then your victim must pass a Steel test before you get to the Swoon. Still powerful, but with enough filters to make it work.

[LordSmerf]

Actually i had the exact same initial impression: we already have a way to determine if you kill someone... The problem is: the point here is that it's silent. This is essentially striking in such a way that your opponent doesn't scream (since that's the most conspicuouis noise he might make). The other thing is that there are plenty of ways to do this right, if you are taught them: Unarmed throat strikes/grabs, covering the mouth as you deal a slash to the throat... etc. The other problem is that according to the standard rules: an average stree tough (Power 3) with a Knife (Power 1) deals a B6 Superb result. This is rarely ever more serious than a Midi wound (which is decently serious). However, if i sneak up behind you and take a slash at your Carotid (which is rediculously close to the surface of you skin) that will kill you in a couple of minutes, if i slash both carotids (two strikes) then you have maybe 45 seconds most of which you will spend unconsious and bleeding. This oppurtunity is available specifically because i had a perfect shot: slashing a carotid in combat is a rediculously difficult thing to do...

This highlights the biggest problem i have with The Burning Wheel, called shots don't do more damage... I've had characters do B7 wounds to the eye of their opponents... This is bad, but i have yet to see any called shot to a Killing Point (throat, solar plexus, spine, any major artery) be rewarded with extra damage... Maybe i'm just being silly, but i feel that the system does need to account for the fact that my Power and Weapon don't have to be big for me to kill you in one or two blows... assuming that you aren't able to defend yourself.

One final note: the key to this skill is not killing with one blow, it is killing without alerting other people. It's stuff like simultaneous mouth grab/vital shots... Maybe you stab them two or three times, but you don't allow them to scream.

It's entirely possible that i can do this within the existing framework of the system and just haven't seen how, if anyone has suggestions i'd love to hear them...

Thomas

[luke]

You are, I feel, once again mythologizing murder. Those "carotid strikes" are notoriously difficult to actually effect in a high stress situation. Even if you know where they both are, you're more likely to hit them out of luck than skill. And luck doesn't show her face all that often.

There's no reason for called shots to do more damage in this system. A wound is a wound, no matter where you hit your target. Calling a shot is simply aiming for a location for a specific effect -- I do a Midi THERE! Usually they simply assure that damage is done, rather than ignored.

Precision Training (http://www.burningwheel.org/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=102) takes the strength out of damage and makes it all skill. (And, btw, Power isn't "muscles" or "size", it's your ability to use what you've got.)

Lastly, why can't an attacking player state his actions and let the dice decide success? There's nothing that says you can't "call" a Lock -- I grab him around the mouth -- in an attempt to muffle the scream.

The danger with "auto-kill-silent" is that murder and violence become the magic solution key. Don't like him? In a bind? Well, I auto-kill-silent his ass. There is no commitment and no danger, at least not at the level that the system insists on for melee combat.

Murder is very messy. While it is, of course, very easy to kill someone, a run through of your daily paper generally paints a vivid picture of how loud, bloody and ugly those deaths are: 39 shots, 15 stab wounds, survived four-story fall, survived gun shot wound to the head, escaped her attacker, head smashed in with a rock, neighbors heard screams...

BW really fights to maintain this messiness in murder.

-L

[luke]

Playing Devil's Advocate, let's look at the flip side.

Likely that your called shot to the exposed area of the victim's body will be Ob 1. You can take your time, aim and let it go. (Yes, we've adopted the patiently rules for melee). Or it's quite possible you'll have time to hit Aggressive Stance before the Strike is delivered.

Either way, you're look at a Superb shot (even without the skill).

Damage from this hit should look something like this: Power 4 + Knife Pow 1: I B3, M B5, S B7.

So a B7 wound to the location of your choice. Oh no, you cry, I have not instantly killed him! Woe.

'Tis true, I'm afraid. But let's look a step deeper: A Midi, no matter how you slice it, causes a Steel test. Using the variant rules (which I recommend), that's -2D from that Steel test. So an average hardened soldier, stabbed from behind in such a manner, would have to pass a Steel test with three dice vs an Ob 6 (his Will is probably 4). It's not bloody likely.

His reaction? Run and Scream, of course! So what? He's at minus two dice. With a Speed probably cut down to B2, it's more along the lines of "Stagger and Gasp". From this position it is quite easy to knock him down and deliver another blow.

But this assumes a single action volley. Likely, you're going to frontload two actions into V1. He doesn't get to move until the following volley (especially if he fails that Steel test and his Reflexes drops to 2 on the first action). So you're quite possibly going to deliver another Midi wound to him before he can get away. That's -4D, and it should put down just about anyone in the game.

Two well-planned Strikes. Two actions. No special rules needed. Down they go like a dead steer.

Look at it this way: Nearly impossible to kill with a knife in a single blow, but fairly easy to stab someone into unconsciousness. It's really, not that big of a divide in this game.

hope that helps!
-L

[Mad Hatter]

I'm with you 100% on this, Luke, and I would rule a conflict like this the same way. Murdering someone from behind is a combination of grappling and dealing several telling blows, whether to the neck, back, or whatever. The key will be trying to cut off the screams long enough to brutally finish the guy off. Always give the fellow a chance. After all, you'd like one if it was your character. I hate instant-kill rules.

[Kublai]

The key to keeping them silent is all in the initial Lock. If the victim has no idea you are there, then when you Lock it's not a bad idea to make him roll a Surprise Steel test right then and there. If he fails that Steel test, you might be able to lock him to incapacitation in one action. Make this lock around his throat or mouth, and no fair GM will allow him to scream out.

The point about the knife not being able to kill in one blow is valid, though, isn't it? People do die rapidly from a single stab wound delivered to the neck or heart by a normal person. The average B7 won't drop any average character in one blow. Dunno what to do about that, though. Maybe it's not that important, gamewise.

As for Called Shots, here's an advantage that may be fair. Add specific penalties for the area hit. If hit in the eye, give him a +1 Ob to all Perception test on top of the wound modifier. Or perhaps increase his Steel test by 1 or 2? If hit in the sword arm, perhaps a further +1 Ob to victim's attacks or even an agility test to hold onto his weapon.

Hmmm... Luke, where are those notes about Called Shots that we developed to go along with the new Armor Rule Variant?

[Mad Hatter]

The key to keeping them silent is all in the initial Lock. If the victim has no idea you are there, then when you Lock it's not a bad idea to make him roll a Surprise Steel test right then and there. If he fails that Steel test, you might be able to lock him to incapacitation in one action. Make this lock around his throat or mouth, and no fair GM will allow him to scream out.

The point about the knife not being able to kill in one blow is valid, though, isn't it? People do die rapidly from a single stab wound delivered to the neck or heart by a normal person. The average B7 won't drop any average character in one blow. Dunno what to do about that, though. Maybe it's not that important, gamewise.

If he's locked and incapacitated, you can stab him as many times as you want. It takes nerves of steel, skill, and accuracy to hit just the right spot, so I would say that this is realistic enough.

[LordSmerf]

After some thought, and a desire not to make Burning Wheel something that it's not (i design most rule variations under the assumption that they are doing something that is good for the system as a whole, not just for the local group) i'm thinking i may be able to agree with you... The previous solution: to have a skill for murder is based on the following assumptions:

-Human Average is split roughly equally between 3 and 4
-With training (which is why we were using a seperate skill) it is possible to consistently hit vital locations. This is not a combat skill, a Murder test takes approximately one minute, you don't get to script a Murder action, if they see you then your ability to strike a vital point with precision is greatly reduced.
-Military Special Forces train a couple of silent killing maneuvers most using a Knife with a mouth grab (in which the knife is usually driven into the heart either underhand through the back or overhand through the chest) or the Garote... both of these can produce consistently silent kills.

Now, what may work for silent killing instead are:

-Rules for Garotes
-Rules for Silencing Locks (throat/mouth) NOTE: this is probably key
-An Assassination Martial Art with various Lock/Strike combos...

We still have my complaint about Called Shots and damage. It's a tough issue, but if i call a shot to the Eye the effect of any damage is disproportionate to the actual damage. A Midi wound to the eye (at least as i see it) is making it *pop*. The -2 is bad, but it seems to me that the actual effect is signifigantly worse than the -2. From what i have read (having no first hand experience) few people recover from losing an eye in a minute or two... When your Hesitation runs out, i don't see you returning quickly to battle... It get's worse if i'm calling shots to major arteries (the most common in combat as far as i can tell is whatever that one in the thigh is).

It is possible (probable even) that the problem here is simply a difference in the way we view called shots. It is my opinion that a Superb result on a called shot means that you struck that location to perfection. If i call a shot to the carotid and get a superb i expect you to be dead in 20 seconds, and unconsious in 10.... My guess would be that Luke sees things differently...

I still want some way to mechanically cover silent killing: but it may very well be that that can only be satisfactorily (is that even a word) done through the use of Locks and such...

Thomas

[Durgil]

We still have my complaint about Called Shots and damage. It's a tough issue, but if i call a shot to the Eye the effect of any damage is disproportionate to the actual damage. A Midi wound to the eye (at least as i see it) is making it *pop*. The -2 is bad, but it seems to me that the actual effect is signifigantly worse than the -2. From what i have read (having no first hand experience) few people recover from losing an eye in a minute or two... When your Hesitation runs out, i don't see you returning quickly to battle... It get's worse if i'm calling shots to major arteries (the most common in combat as far as i can tell is whatever that one in the thigh is).
I haven't been keeping up with this thread as I probably should but on this point I wish to say that I think a lot of us have differing views on called shoots. I for one think calling an eye shot way too precise of a hit. I would only allow a player to call a head shot, and then go to my HârnMaster Gold rules to see if they were lucky enough to hit an eye. On a Sup, Li, and probably a Mi, I'd rule that the majority of the damage is done to the bone around the socket and the bridge of the nose. I would possible wait to see how severe of a wound is done first to the head before I'd even start to consider if the eye or eyes are involved.

[luke]

It is possible (probable even) that the problem here is simply a difference in the way we view called shots. It is my opinion that a Superb result on a called shot means that you struck that location to perfection. If i call a shot to the carotid and get a superb i expect you to be dead in 20 seconds, and unconsious in 10.... My guess would be that Luke sees things differently...

I still want some way to mechanically cover silent killing: but it may very well be that that can only be satisfactorily (is that even a word) done through the use of Locks and such...

Thomas

Ok, BW doesn't have "critical hits" or special damage. In fact, damage in BW is quite limited -- every player knows their limits when going into a situation. Does this slice off (pun intended) some potentially bizarre strikes that cause instant or near-instant death? Yes, but it levels the playing field for everything in the game. In my research, I found that those odd hits were really quite rare for the vast majority of muscle-powered weapons play.

Yeah, you hear about one every so often on the news, but that's the exception and not the rule. Though, interestingly, I was reading about a prison guard who was stabbed through the eye with a shiv and lived. He's probably the exception, too.

Regarding "Special Forces" and cults of ninja, thugees and assassins: I think what you are describing is the Knife skill, perhaps forked with the Brawling skill. Nothing says you can't script an action to cover the mouth -- it's a perfectly valid narration/description of a successful Get Inside or Lock. But I do not think there is anything special about the maneuver or training -- I really don't believe in the rumors about the deadly power of "ninjas."

Tony is correct in his interpretation of the damage rules, btw. You've got to weigh all factors into the hit before narrating the effect. Even if you do a Superb shot, sometimes you just aren't good enough to pull off that spooky kill. I am certain that you would not want a Superb shot from an unskilled an infant with a pen to kill you outright.

Some might consider this a flaw in the system, I don't happen to think it is. I really hope you can come to a satisfactory conclusion on this. Hell, you can always make up your own rules, even if I disagree with them. :)

-L

[LordSmerf]

Ah, the ol' Shared Imaginative Space... Personally, a baby with a pen killing my character could very well be really cool... Of course i don't expect many people to agree with me...

As this discussion continues i begin to believe that my problem may be solved by two things:

-As you pointed out: Power is not just Strength, it's how well you use your body (i didn't see it this way, which was giving me problems)
-I want a specific rule for using Locks to silence... It doesn't have to be fancy, i just want something written down even if it's: A successful Lock action can be said to keep the target from screaming... (I'm willing to come up with something if you don't...)

As you note, i can simply play by my own rules... But experience seems o indicate to me that doing things to the game that violate the creator's personal vision can cause problems when you want to integrate some of that person's new ideas... If i make up my own rules that don't mesh with your way of thinking and then you come up with some really cool stuff that conflicts, i'll have to rework my stuff anyway... :)

Besides, i like what you've done with the Burning Wheel, so i will continue to assume that you know what you're talking about. At least as far as BW is concerned...

Thomas

[Durgil]

-I want a specific rule for using Locks to silence...
Something else to keep in mind is that if you can develop a rule about restricting a person's airway, then they can't yell or scream. This goes for choke holds, garrotes, and cutting someone from ear to ear. If you cut into the trachea, it makes it very hard for the victim to force air through their larynx (air, like electricity, likes to travel the path of least resistance).

It would be like that dirty cop in the Godfather I who got shot through the throat. They tend to just make a kind of gurgling noise :twisted: .

[Kublai]

A successful Lock action can be said to keep the target from screaming...

A Lock around the mouth or throat that fully incapacitates a person would certainly keep them silent. Who would argue with that call?

For example, my ninja creeps unnoticed up to a guard, close enough to be on the Inside even. When I go to lock the guard, I get the surprise on him and perhaps he fails the steel test. I roll my power to lock him up and completely incapacitate him as he has no Natural Defenses. Stab at will.

If you want to get funky with keeping people silent, it's also there in BW. Even if the knife slash to the throat doesn't kill the victim, perhaps the obstacle for other guards to hear him would increase by the wound modifier. So, the guard takes a Midi and loses 2 dice. If he calls out, other guards would be at a +2 Ob to hear him. You can make the same call for partial locks.

[LordSmerf]

All of that sounds good to me... I guess i'll work up some sort of rules that i can point to and say: that's how we will do it... I'll post them when i get them, until then: thank you to everyone for the feedback and input...

Thomas

[Manicrack]

I thoght that the IMS represents what kind of area the strike hits.
I: Minor scrape at a more or less useless part of the body(namely, skin)
M: Flesh wound, pain, agony, the usual stuff
S: Organs exchange fluids, because they are leaking now.

I don't know, are there possibilities to decrease the add of a weapon through careful aiming and preparation?
I am not all too familar with all rules yet.

[Kaare Berg]

Let me offer up an alternative here.

Skill: Murder.

The ability to silence a kill.

You sneak up on the vic, lock and stab, stab, stab, stab, stab...eh sorry :twisted:
try again
you sneak up on the vic lock and stab, roll you Murder skill and this becomes a stealth test for the kill.

Other guards will then have to roll their perception abainst the ob derived from this roll. Like steath and without any special rules for silenced locks requiered.

[eruditus]

Of course, the issue is that called shots already reduce your chance for a Superb and even that superb may not kill someone with a small weapon.

The assumption in BW is that your numbers determine your results, not the other way around. Your not saying "I hit him in the eye" and then roll. Your saying I take a +2 Ob and aim for his face and a superb says you do (or don't do) enough damage (as described by the GM) to the appropriate area of the face based on the type of wound you get.

However, I do think that people can and will die quickly from certain blows.

Here are my suggestions:
1) Murderous Trait (5 pts Call on trait) - on a Superb outcome with a +4 Ob called shot, roll a DOF. On a 6 the strike is a mortal wound.

2) Assassin Touch manuever (Stealth ob 8) - increased the number of pips a strike does by the number of successes over the opponent's perception check to a maximum of the assassin's weapon skill.

Thoughts?

[Manicrack]

Skill: Murder.

The ability to silence a kill.

that sounds logical. It's not anymore an instant kill skill. Howver, I do belive it is not nessecary to make this an extra skill.
I like the lock version that was already suggsted.

Here are my suggestions:
1) Murderous Trait (5 pts Call on trait) - on a Superb outcome with a +4 Ob called shot, roll a DOF. On a 6 the strike is a mortal wound.

2) Assassin Touch manuever (Stealth ob icon_cool.gif - increased the number of pips a strike does by the number of successes over the opponent's perception check to a maximum of the assassin's weapon skill.


both not bad

here is my suggstion:

With careful preparation and aiming a character should be able to lower his obstacle.
Everey PC and NPC needs at least one success to make the test. However, theoretically he could further lower the obstacle, to, say, -1.
He still needs at leats one success, but the -1 obstacle now has affect on the IMS. Because ther eare more successes over the obstacle.
whoa, this is getting weird, i hope you're all staying with me here.
Of course the soon to be victim must be allowed perception to see the murderer(maybe even test several times).

Ok, flame if you don;t like it.
I am tired.
When I am tired I make up garbidge.

-Crack

PS: I edited this now about 5 times. Next time I preview it.

[Blackberry]

I think I would just say, sure, you can work carefully in combat and make sure you get a killing blow, but it takes a physical maneuver for each action and you can't move or defend yourself, so attacks against you while you're setting up for it are at Ob 0.

That'll also let anyone outside of combat deliver a killing blow, given enough time to prepare and get exactly the right position on their target, in addition to letting people do it in combat time if they really want to -- setting the poor guy back up, lifting his chin so his head is raised, aiming your sword against his neck, taking a practice swing, aiming again, drawing back for it...

[Manicrack]

oh yeah, don't we all love sacasm?

of course we do.

There are so many ways to make a rule up for this. and I guess everybody can make and play there own.
I don;t like my own Idea, by the way.

I am for the stealth, lock, strike, strike, strike ....... method.

-Crack

[LordSmerf]

That'll also let anyone outside of combat deliver a killing blow, given enough time to prepare and get exactly the right position on their target, [snip]

Well, as the rules stand this isn't true. For most characters a superb hit with a knife is not a mortal wound, so while it may be horribly debilitating (such that you can kill them off quickly) it's not nessecarily a "killing blow."

Thomas

[Blackberry]

That'll also let anyone outside of combat deliver a killing blow, given enough time to prepare and get exactly the right position on their target, [snip]

Well, as the rules stand this isn't true. For most characters a superb hit with a knife is not a mortal wound, so while it may be horribly debilitating (such that you can kill them off quickly) it's not nessecarily a "killing blow."

Okay, for knives, you can invoke the "mostly dead" rule.

[eruditus]

Although I don't think a "knife can kill you if your stabbed in the eye" rule is neccessary but as mentioned you could do it a number of ways.

I think the slickest is "GM: what? You made your stealth roll by four, extra dice after getting a superb with the dagger? Sure I will roll a DOF. normally on a 6 he'd die but I will make it 4-6 since you have done so well. Otherwise you just do whatever a superb with the dagger bears out."

[Jabberwocky]

Well.. personal preference would be an ordinary attack, letting the silence factor in as how the Stealth roll went...

Might also allow an Anatomy FoRK actually, if it was a silent kill from behind aiming to take the target out precisely... or mebbe add an "Assassination Training" that lets you FoRK in Anatomy or simialr against an unsuspecting target...

-Jabberwocky

[eruditus]

I am a big fan of manuevers (like the Martial Arts special moves) being associated with all kinds of skills. How about this one to fit the bill:

Anatomy Manuever
Ob 6 Surgical Precision
Against a helpless opponent, either through the victim being oblivious to the attack, incapacitated, asleep, locked down, etc., you add two to the power of your melee attacks with weapons no larger than a shortsword.