Advancement by Use

[Fuseboy]

One of the really nice things about advancing the skills you use is that you don't have to worry about spending points on things that "don't come up."

Our DM barely ever calls for Concentration checks, in our D&D game, but if he started to, I think we'd all find ourselves way behind! In BW, the same situation would be self-correcting.

[kruug]

Another nice thing is that you advance them by using them, not by killing random shit for XP. Such a novel thought.

It is cool how you have to try stuff beyond your abilities (Challenging tests) in order to advance. Fuel for the GM.

[Mordaith]

Right on the money for sure. I've always been a fan of "Advancement by Use" systems. The Elder Scroll Video Game series always entertained me in that regard, and I am very excited about the new game "Two Worlds". From all the initial things I have read it is much more like BW, it sounds like you can just decide to start learning a skill, even though it wasn't on 'your list'.

-Mordaith

[Blackberry]

Another nice thing is that you advance them by using them, not by killing random shit for XP. Such a novel thought.

It's a great mechanic, but not exactly novel. I first fell in love with it in 1978 in RuneQuest.


It is cool how you have to try stuff beyond your abilities (Challenging tests) in order to advance. Fuel for the GM.

That's a pretty neat sub-mechanic. Also the fact that, for most things, even failing them can teach you something, which I first saw in Aftermath!

BW combines lots of solid old mechanics with some intriguing new ones.

[Trismegistus]

Advancement is better than sliced bread. In my lab of rpg mad science, I am always trying to find a way to stitch together elements from systems into a modern Prometheus of gaming. BW's advancment will be the heart. Maybe the liver.

The only thing I'm hard-pressed to explain to myself and players is how getting oodles of difficult and challenging tests, but not enough routine ones, prevents advancement.

Player: "But I replaced that guy's brain, heart and intestines, one-handed in the dark!"
GM: "I know. Now, just put on a few band-aids, and you'll get that B3 in Surgery."

[kruug]

The only thing I'm hard-pressed to explain to myself and players is how getting oodles of difficult and challenging tests, but not enough routine ones, prevents advancement.


I think this is akin to those mathematicians who understand high level concepts and theories, but still need a calculator for basic arithmetic.

[Trismegistus]

I think this is akin to those mathematicians who understand high level concepts and theories, but still need a calculator for basic arithmetic.

I could buy that, except that high-level math and arithmetic are very different skills. High math is the logic-based calculus of symbols. Arithmetic is merely applying rote techniques. It's the difference between writing and composing. It's difficult to translate that consistently into someone's sword skill, for example.

You could say the guy with B2 in Sword and four challenging tests has mastered Tybalt's Defense, but still has trouble with a basic thrust. But, that feels like a fall-back to me, and not a sound rule. What happens when he advances, and has four challenging tests at B3, but again no routines? Or if the whole group has several skills like this between them? It's a bit odd.

[MetalBard]

I could buy that, except that high-level math and arithmetic are very different skills. High math is the logic-based calculus of symbols. Arithmetic is merely applying rote techniques. It's the difference between writing and composing. It's difficult to translate that consistently into someone's sword skill, for example.

You could say the guy with B2 in Sword and four challenging tests has mastered Tybalt's Defense, but still has trouble with a basic thrust. But, that feels like a fall-back to me, and not a sound rule. What happens when he advances, and has four challenging tests at B3, but again no routines? Or if the whole group has several skills like this between them? It's a bit odd.


I know that in fencing you need to constantly refine the basics, so when you're drilling, it's not all oddball parries and fleches, but also simple hand touches, ripostes and lunges. You'd be surprised by how many long-time fencers lunge poorly because they neglect to keep practicing it in their drills.

[Trismegistus]

I know that in fencing you need to constantly refine the basics, so when you're drilling, it's not all oddball parries and fleches, but also simple hand touches, ripostes and lunges. You'd be surprised by how many long-time fencers lunge poorly because they neglect to keep practicing it in their drills.

I get that. I'm not advocating neglecting the basics. Rather, it seems there's a discrepency in how the basics are modeled. Parrying in the dark isn't so different than parrying during the day; thrusting even though you're nicked up isn't so different than thrusting unscathed. It seems that the basics stop being the basics somewhere along the line. It feels like, although we "burn" our characters, a trial by fire means less in play than a wee little candle to light the way.

If a character has fought in the dark, in the rain, one-handed, with wounds and from the ground over a couple weeks, but had little opportunity for some basic sword swinging, he's been tested to the extreme and survived. It's an idiosyncracy of the system that he wouldn't have actually improved, in spite of surviving the harshness of such a situation.

[TimP]

If a character has fought in the dark, in the rain, one-handed, with wounds and from the ground over a couple weeks, but had little opportunity for some basic sword swinging, he's been tested to the extreme and survived. It's an idiosyncracy of the system that he wouldn't have actually improved, in spite of surviving the harshness of such a situation.

I don't expect that BW's advancement system is supposed to be a realistic model of human learning and achievement. The requirements for different levels of tests are guidelines for the GM and players that help to make sure that you have the bittersweet failures of challenging tests, the skin of the teeth victories and defeats of difficult tests, and the easy triumphs of routines. BW advancement assures that you'll get to experience the full gamut! That's one way of looking at it, anyway.

Tim

[Alkiera]

If a character has fought in the dark, in the rain, one-handed, with wounds and from the ground over a couple weeks, but had little opportunity for some basic sword swinging, he's been tested to the extreme and survived. It's an idiosyncracy of the system that he wouldn't have actually improved, in spite of surviving the harshness of such a situation.

They wouldn't have improved WITHOUT that, either. If they'd just fought middling opponent during a dry sunny day, they be equally far from advancing.

Also, you get those tests difficult or challenging tests whether you succeed or not. If you've been fighting in the dark, in the rain, while wounded, etc... you probably haven't been doing very well, unless you were very lucky (the Artha flowed like water...). If a real person did that, he's either disappointed at how poorly he's doing, "I suck with the sword, maybe I should take up knitting", or he's floating on a high of "I'm so amazing!" due to the good luck he's had... he hasn't really gotten any better in either case. 'Routine' tests represent discipline and confidence building for low-skilled characters. Once they hit the point where they are 'good at it', exp 5, they no longer need the disciplined review or confidence building, as they have proven themselves. At that point, the fundamentals are ingrained, and the only way they will get better is by pushing themselves to fight better opponents (wandering swordsman/martial artist-style), or by pushing to keep fighting under difficult circumstances.

If I go out with my B3 Carpentry skill and try to build a house, it will not work. I will ruin a lot of perfectly good materials, and have a pile of junk at the end. At best, I'll have a house that is not remotely plumb, square, or true. It's a challenging test, sure, but building half a dozen screwed up houses won't make me any better at making houses, because my errors aren't at the level of 'building a house' they're at the 'cutting a square board' level. Routine tests are the 'refine what you know' type experience, difficult and challenging ones are more about expanding your knowledge.

--
Alkiera

[Trismegistus]

All good thoughts. I think a large part of my issue is that in the games I've run, my players do let the artha flow like water, and they are, more often than not, succeeding. They also tend to make things more difficult than they need to be, so the tests I'm doling out have impressively high Obs. Thus, my players get a tad frustrated when they're sitting on five challenging tests and no routines, succeeding in the game in every way, except the "lifeblood of the game." I have to respond to that if I'm a good GM, but, I also find they enjoy the challenge of doing things the hard way.

Perhaps this is more of a fevered circle issue...certainly didn't mean to hijack a thread meant for praise of what I also believe is an excellent advancement system.

[TimP]

Thus, my players get a tad frustrated when they're sitting on five challenging tests and no routines, succeeding in the game in every way, except the "lifeblood of the game." I have to respond to that if I'm a good GM, but, I also find they enjoy the challenge of doing things the hard way.

We run into this problem too, especially with three lifepath characters. Helping and liberal use of FoRKs are two ways to get those routines.

[donbaloo]

I definitely feel where you're coming from Tri because its always bugged me as well. Makes one very tempted to fudge it and start converting tests to lower ones. But, we do see it all the time in books and movies where an individual has several good "moves" but they're overall skill is weak due to the basics. The kid has a great dunk, very showy, but the new coach has to teach him his passing if he's gonna be great. I can almost see the heartwarming Disney movie forming now. But that leads me to what else I was gonna add. If all else fails, don't forget Practice.