Burning North

[Kaare Berg]

Hey,

Happy days Luke, the manager of our FLGS is in my group and when he saw BW in Games Trade he ordered eight, yepp: 8, copies for his store. And he knows he'll sell them.

As to add my two sents to the price discussion, you can safely bump the price to 20 - 25 bucks for the game, but if you want to go higher I would do something about the presentation (read: cover) of the books. Although the game is great value for money, I can't say its the first thing I would pick down from a shelf based on the looks of th books.

and thats where you got to go if you want to make it in the stores.

peace

K

[Drozdal]

Cool beans negilent!

Dro

[luke]

Kaare,

you rock. rock. rock. rock.

I'm coming to Norway to personally thank you.

Oh wait, you're dissin' my covers. Well my friend, I cannot be held accountable for your taste in chainmail bikinis. How much would you pay for a little skin on the cover? But now that you mention it, that's what I'm going to do. Kaare, you're a genius! Tits and ass on the revised BW covers. Oh yeah.

:wink:

I like my covers and I ain't never ever changing 'em.

But seriously people...
thanks for all your support, Kaare, I really appreciate it.
-L

[Kaare Berg]

well 8 x 15 would be about a 120 bucks, assuming you get the full load.

If you can get from NYC to Stavanger on that I'd be impressed.

you're always welcome though.

Before we start the Cover bit,

Do not take this as an attack. This is honest critisism from a guy, who despite artistic skills like a drunk potato, has an eye for these things.
But you asked:
I need some honest feedback from the people who have been supporting Burning Wheel through its infancy.

So I hope you get my point.

And it is going to sound harsh, but this is just my unfiltered honest opinion.

Now if you keep your covers I'd still pay 20 25 bucks for your game, swipe, bling, ka-ching and the money is gone.

Now to the Cover bit:

If you want to sell in the 30 - 40 buck class you've unfortunatly got to have some more flash. Or another colour.

I like the simplicity of your covers. They suit my tastes, BUT I would've flipped past it on the shelf (if not to check out the chainmail bikinis, then to check out books that catch my eye, ok so I'd check out those naughty elves aswell.)

Hell, I passed up the Riddle of Steel this way and had to wait two long months to get it, and thats a hardbound book.

My point is: you're in Games Trade, your game is good enough to bounce up to the 30-40 buck range. It is a complete package, well thought out rules and playable (which cannot be said for all games at that price).

But to sell at that price-tag your layout, design and art is . . . well, lacking.

Heresy, how can I speak such travesty? Where is the tar and feathers? Does anyone have a scarlet A, anyone we need an A over here?

There is a simple logic to this,

You got to grab new gamers visually for them to read enough to be hooked, like I was, by skills like Strentorious Singing and the Let It Ride
rule.

I visited this site five times before I even downloaded and printed the samples. Only then was I hooked.

In a games store, you don't have that luxury.

Although D&D bashing is all the rage you can't fault their art direction.

And that is what you are up against out there



Am I making sense or have should I rename this post Burning Bridges.

And you probably already know all this.

Peace

K

Check out www.bergting.com if you want my choice of cover artist (again a budget question, I know, but as a critic that's not my concern.)

[Kublai]

Hey, negilent! Cool news and much appreciated.

As for Luke's schizophrenic behavior ("Give me feedback/Don't criticize me!), just ignore it. It's his failed attempt at a little levity and friendly banter. He always forgets the smiley face. :P

Either that or he really is a schizo! :shock:

[luke]

Kaare,
I was only teasing!

I'm not going to say "never" or anything, but I don't see BW being sold for $30 any time soon. As a gamer, I just don't want to pay that much for a book. And thus, I don't want any one else paying that much for my books.

As far as layout and design goes... don't be so caught up in the da flash of four color glossy. I submit to you that Burning Wheel is more readable than most other game books out there because of its layout and interior design.

Burning Wheel will continue to look and feel different than other games -- both graphically and mechanically. I'm committed!

btw, I make $33.60 on the sets your manager ordered through Game Trade. That'll just about get me a cab to the airport.

Which is kind of the point of this thread. 8 sets and I'm not making enough to reprint them. That's ugly.

So, to sum up: The price will be going up to cover distro costs. Probably somewhere in the $20-25 range. The game will be revised for the price increase. I will also be offering perks for folks who buy direct -- sales, pdfs and other fun stuff.

thanks, kaare!
-L

[Gumby]

hey if the new covers are in can I pick one up at GenCon Luke. I not I'll specially order mine...And since everyone is DnD bashing heres my two cents...Merits and Flaws Luke..Merits and Flaws...


Yeah, what now..



Take it easy
Gumby

[Kaare Berg]

Kublai wrote
Either that or he really is a schizo!

I know he is, why do you think I was so careful.

:lol:

I just wanna see you do good Luke,

And with some more Black and White flash, you can kick ass at the 30 to 40 segment.

Until then give me a holler when the game is ready for redistro.

[luke]

btw, Berting is great.

(there is no way i could afford him)
:(

[Yagathai]

Perhaps you could contract with the guy that did the F.A.T.A.L. cover -- I bet he works cheap. That way you could solve your budgetary woes and get the prerequisite cover-T&A in in one swell foop!

[Rindu]

Personally, I love the look of the books. Granted, I bought my copy off Ebay based on reading about the system, but when I opened the box and saw the books, I was "wowed." The books look different from other RPG books, which is a good thing, because the system is so fresh and new and exciting.

And the layout is pretty damn sharp. And the writing and proofreading is excellent.

My only problem with the look of the books is that some of the interior art is really bad. On the other hand, this is true of nearly every RPG book in existence.

[Drozdal]

My only problem with the look of the books is that some of the interior art is really bad. On the other hand, this is true of nearly every RPG book in existence.

Good art unfortunately equals money and lot of it! Wait till You see Monster Burner :)

Dro

[Manicrack]

Actually the simplicity of the books cover art was what made me to pick it up the first time.
That was at Oddesee her in Ithaca, and i was just hanging out there with a friend and chatting with the owner(for Luke, since you said you might be going to make a demo there, his name is Jevan).
Anyway, I was flipping through a few boring D&D books, all saying, that for a good experience I need at least 2 other books. And I looked around.
I saw many very colorful books, that annoyed the crap out of me. In my experience many of them have better art than gameplay.
But then I saw these 2 books, art simple, bound together by a red piece of paper.
I picked it up, started reading the intro, and when I came back a few days later, once I had money again, it was gone.

If the Bastard who bought it is one these forums... I am still looking for people to play with.

Anyway, Jevan got more copies and a month later I had my own.
Sweeetttt!!!



My point:
Keep the art simple.
Burning wheel is special because it insprires more imagination than any other rpg, imo.
simple cover art is part of that, imho.

-Crack

[eruditus]

Leave it to Yagathai to mention that game...

Anyway.

My 2 cents:

1) $20 bucks a book is a great deal and doable within your business model. Once you raise the standard of your business model then you'll need to increase the production value and the price (ie. be a full time game publisher).

2) I think the base books should never stray from the cover design. No pics, no flash. Solid and streamlines. This clean classic look separates you from the rest. It makes BW distinctive. I agree that it makes BW a harder sell but I think buzz and a truly GREAT system makes up for it.

3) Source material is another thing entirely. I plan on having more flash on the covers of Fortune's Tide. I am going for a Book of Kels look with some fantasy art. Its far more important, IMHO, that source material is well developed conceptually (ie. strong art design and thematics). Since BW are the rules of the game I think the sleak presentation brings across a more generic feel, appropriate to a fantasy rule's set.