Obstacle Setting Clinic

[Trismegistus]

Continuing from this thread (http://burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?t=4537), I think I could use a little practice at setting obstacles for various tasks, if only to see if I'm on the right track or way off base.

So, tell me what you want to do, how you want to do it, what your dicepool is, and any other situational bits that might be relevant. Examples off the tops of your heads or from actual play are welcome!

[Thor]

We've got two carts loaded with goods and our scouting has revealed a troop of Great Wolf-mounted orcs is shadowing us. Recognizing that we can't outrun them, we decide to choose the battleground.

I want to use Fortifications to arrange the carts and the barrels in them into a bit of a defensive barrier that we can fight behind. I'm looking for +1D to Maintains in Range & Cover.

[luke]

I want to polish my swords after a battle. I want to repair my chainmail. I want to find someone who knows me.

[Trismegistus]

We've got two carts loaded with goods and our scouting has revealed a troop of Great Wolf-mounted orcs is shadowing us. Recognizing that we can't outrun them, we decide to choose the battleground.

I want to use Fortifications to arrange the carts and the barrels in them into a bit of a defensive barrier that we can fight behind. I'm looking for +1D to Maintains in Range & Cover.

I'd set this at Ob 1, and potentially give you a bonus die for the carts and barrels if they were cleverly deployed or particularly sturdy.

[Trismegistus]

I want to polish my swords after a battle.

What's your intent in polishing your swords? Are you just getting the blood and muck off, or are you rehoning the blades and refitting leather for a new grip? (In other words, are you making them pretty or fixing them?) In either case, what skill are you using?


I want to repair my chainmail.

What skill are you using to repair your chainmail, and how many dice of damage are you trying to repair?


I want to find someone who knows me.

Do you have any relevant reputations/affiliations? How soon and where do you want to find this person? Are they of similar rank/station? Did you meet them on a LP or elsewhere?

[Thor]

I'd set this at Ob 1, and potentially give you a bonus die for the carts and barrels if they were cleverly deployed or particularly sturdy.

Great. Definitely Ob 1, as listed under the Fortifications entry. I probably wouldn't give advantage dice since the carts and barrels are essentially the Tools I'm using. But it's not entirely out of bounds.

Time for another one (Luke's are good too). This one is a bit more difficult:

I have a magical dragon figurine. I've looked at it with Aura Reading and know it reads strongly of the Transmutation Impetus. I've also seen it in use once, by a bandit who turned it into a boat.

I've seen similar items at the Academy of Wizardry. I want to use my Magic Theory-wise to determine the trigger mechanism for the magical transformation.

[luke]

Tris,
My skill exponent doesn't matter. Do not ask a player what their exponent is and then set the difficulty. Similarly, reps and affs are irrelevant to setting a Circles Ob.

I'm using Armorer and Weaponsmith.

I'm not setting any other conditions on the Circles test. I just want to find someone who knows me.

[Trismegistus]

Great. Definitely Ob 1, as listed under the Fortifications entry. I probably wouldn't give advantage dice since the carts and barrels are essentially the Tools I'm using. But it's not entirely out of bounds.

Time for another one (Luke's are good too). This one is a bit more difficult:

I have a magical dragon figurine. I've looked at it with Aura Reading and know it reads strongly of the Transmutation Impetus. I've also seen it in use once, by a bandit who turned it into a boat.

I've seen similar items at the Academy of Wizardry. I want to use my Magic Theory-wise to determine the trigger mechanism for the magical transformation.

That is a bit trickier. I'm going to say overall, Ob 4, because it is not a unique item and it's usable by those who aren't sorcerers. Thus, it's not quite a mere "detail" (Ob 3), nor is it a "rare" piece of knowledge (Ob 5), because even a a bandit knew how it was used. If the Aura Reading weren't done in the past, I might allow it as a linked test.

[Thor]

That is a bit trickier. I'm going to say overall, Ob 4, because it is not a unique item and it's usable by those who aren't sorcerers. Thus, it's not quite a mere "detail" (Ob 3), nor is it a "rare" piece of knowledge (Ob 5), because even a a bandit knew how it was used. If the Aura Reading weren't done in the past, I might allow it as a linked test.

Very good! That was exactly the obstacle stormsweeper set in our game.

Here's another:

After a month at sea, we've arrived at the mercantile city of La-Vaar, a strange place that has so far remained free of pirate rule. I've never been here before.

I want to use my Streetwise to find the storied Grand Market, where it is claimed everything in the world can be bought or sold.

[Trismegistus]

Tris,
My skill exponent doesn't matter. Do not ask a player what their exponent is and then set the difficulty. Similarly, reps and affs are irrelevant to setting a Circles Ob.

True! I was thinking backwards...my bad.


I'm using Armorer and Weaponsmith.

To repair your chainmail, it's Ob 1 for the first two dice, Ob 2 for the third, Ob 3 for the fourth, as per pg. 184 of the brown book.

To fix up some minor dings done to your sword during battle, I'd say Ob 1 for Weaponsmith. For what it's worth, I might make it Ob 2 for Blacksmith.


I'm not setting any other conditions on the Circles test. I just want to find someone who knows me.

If it's someone who really knows you, i.e., a relationship, no roll, obviously. If you don't have a relationship, and you don't care who, what, when, where or how, Ob 1. You'll get 'em when you get 'em, and who he/she/it is is up in the air till then, but they'll know you.

[Trismegistus]

Very good! That was exactly the obstacle stormsweeper set in our game.

Here's another:

After a month at sea, we've arrived at the mercantile city of La-Vaar, a strange place that has so far remained free of pirate rule. I've never been here before.

I want to use my Streetwise to find the storied Grand Market, where it is claimed everything in the world can be bought or sold.

Ob 1! Ob 1! You can practically see the variegated tents from the docks! Ob 1 already!

[luke]

You see what we're getting at? Those little moments can actually be important rolls.

[pseudoidiot]

The party comes to a river crossing. There's a simple rope bridge, but I'm riding a horse, and I don't want to leave my horse behind. The river is fordable, but not easily so (hence the bridge). I want to get myself and my horse across using Ride.

(also, to make things a little more interesting, how about considering stakes for some of these scenarios?)

[Thor]

Ob 1! Ob 1! You can practically see the variegated tents from the docks! Ob 1 already!

Totally. Now if you could just explain to me how I managed to fail the roll...

Okay. A trickier one:

Drozdal wants to have his Spirit Binder summon a really, really powerful spirit to divert the plague-wind of Nos, blowing from an evil fetish urn created by the dread wizard Durs-Ghal. It's already killed many of the people on the island. In order to get enough dice to summon a spirit that can provide protection against the plague wind and not kill himself in the process, Dro's character is going to need a very powerful Summoning Circle. He figures that he needs 4 extra dice from the circle, which means it will be an Ob 4 Circination test to create the circle.

Unfortunately, he's the only one who has the Circination skill. Even with 2 FoRKs from his wises and a Persona point, making an Ob 4 test with his Circination B3 isn't going to be easy.

My craftsman character doesn't have the skills to help directly, so I tell you that I want to make a linked test.

I want to use my Carpentry skill to build a circle for Dro's character out of lumber, rope and sailcloth. I want to FoRK my Knots and Mending skills. What's the Ob for my linked test?

[Trismegistus]

You see what we're getting at? Those little moments can actually be important rolls.

Hm. I didn't think I was saying they couldn't be. Rather, I was asking in the other thread how you get players to want to interject these things, since mine are far more interested in doing the big things, and I'm hard-pressed to realize where they need tests.

Also, finding someone who happens to know you or noticing the gihugic market everyone's walking towards seem like things that I would say "yes" to, yet that seems to thwart advancement and player creativity in this instance. Do I need to start demanding more from my players? How do I stop this from becoming a comedy of errors if everyone wants to complicate the plot until sinks under its own weight?

[Trismegistus]

The party comes to a river crossing. There's a simple rope bridge, but I'm riding a horse, and I don't want to leave my horse behind. The river is fordable, but not easily so (hence the bridge). I want to get myself and my horse across using Ride.

(also, to make things a little more interesting, how about considering stakes for some of these scenarios?)

Assuming a Courser, with Will B2, I'd bump it up +2 for the skinny, rickety bridge, so Ob 4. If you fail, you're going to have to do some clever scrambling to save yourself, but the horse is a goner.

[Trismegistus]

Totally. Now if you could just explain to me how I managed to fail the roll...

Okay. A trickier one:

Drozdal wants to have his Spirit Binder summon a really, really powerful spirit to divert the plague-wind of Nos, blowing from an evil fetish urn created by the dread wizard Durs-Ghal. It's already killed many of the people on the island. In order to get enough dice to summon a spirit that can provide protection against the plague wind and not kill himself in the process, Dro's character is going to need a very powerful Summoning Circle. He figures that he needs 4 extra dice from the circle, which means it will be an Ob 4 Circination test to create the circle.

Unfortunately, he's the only one who has the Circination skill. Even with 2 FoRKs from his wises and a Persona point, making an Ob 4 test with his Circination B3 isn't going to be easy.

My craftsman character doesn't have the skills to help directly, so I tell you that I want to make a linked test.

I want to use my Carpentry skill to build a circle for Dro's character out of lumber, rope and sailcloth. I want to FoRK my Knots and Mending skills. What's the Ob for my linked test?

I'll take a swing, but owing to the fact I don't know the summoning rules too well, I may miss something.

It isn't that difficult to make the shape of a circle with some wood, rope and cloth: Ob 1. But, (I'm guessing) making space for for special sigils and signs, as well as the need for the circle to be as perfect as possible makes it a bit harder, nevermind that carpenters don't exactly keep blueprints of magical circles for their apprentices to study. Altogether, Ob 3.

[Thor]

Also, finding someone who happens to know you or noticing the gihugic market everyone's walking towards seem like things that I would say "yes" to, yet that seems to thwart advancement and player creativity in this instance. Do I need to start demanding more from my players? How do I stop this from becoming a comedy of errors if everyone wants to complicate the plot until sinks under its own weight?

When I asked for the Grand Market, it hadn't already been established that there was one. All we knew about this place was that it was a mercantile city. I put my own stamp on it with the Streetwise test. Mayuran, as the GM, trusted it to be going someplace cool, so allowed me to take the test.

When I failed, I wound up someplace else entirely: a local fish market where they weren't too keen on outsiders. Needing some help to get out of there in one piece, I used my Circles to bring in a Peasant (my Born lifepath). That Circled-up character wound up developing into a fairly important character for that leg of the story.

It didn't become a comedy of errors because I, as a player, made sure to take the complication and push back toward the other players and our goal for being on that island.

In fact, the reason I was looking for the Grand Market in the first place was to find some skilled weavers who could make cloth out of our shipload of wool and to get some work to pay for it. The peasant I Circled turned out to be a Farmer. His wife had the Country Wife lifepath. That allowed her to take skills from the Farmer lifepath, including Weaver. So she and the other women of the community that I found were weavers.

I used my Boatwright skill to repair the fishing boat that belonged to my farmer friend's brother, and also used my Blacksmith skill to repair some of the tools around my friend's farm. In this way, I earned the friendship of the people, and the women agreed to weave the wool for us.

So even though there were complications in the form of my failed Streetwise test, it just added more richness to the story. Both Mayuran and I were focused on using the new circumstances to keep the game rolling.

[Lyarie]

Assuming a Courser, with Will B2, I'd bump it up +2 for the skinny, rickety bridge, so Ob 4. If you fail, you're going to have to do some clever scrambling to save yourself, but the horse is a goner.I think a rope bridge means it's not doable on a horse. I may have a different mental picture of this bridge though. I think we're looking for a river-crossing ride check.

[Thor]

I'll take a swing, but owing to the fact I don't know the summoning rules too well, I may miss something.

It isn't that difficult to make the shape of a circle with some wood, rope and cloth: Ob 1. But, (I'm guessing) making space for for special sigils and signs, as well as the need for the circle to be as perfect as possible makes it a bit harder, nevermind that carpenters don't exactly keep blueprints of magical circles for their apprentices to study. Altogether, Ob 3.

Pretty good. The Summoning rules don't actually come into play in this example, they're just there to trip you up.

This particular test is clearly a judgment call on your part. Ob 3 is a perfectly acceptable obstacle. I think in our game it wound up being Ob 4.

In the actual game, this was a pretty moving moment, believe it or not. The characters in our group had been at each other's throats, but this test brought them all together to help.

[pseudoidiot]

I think a rope bridge means it's not doable on a horse. I may have a different mental picture of this bridge though. I think we're looking for a river-crossing ride check.

Yeah, I meant having to swim the horse across. I wasn't explicit enough, though.

[Trismegistus]

It didn't become a comedy of errors because I, as a player, made sure to take the complication and push back toward the other players and our goal for being on that island.

And that is awesome. In fact, that whole example is awesome. I get the impression you guys have been playing together for a long time, and you know what to expect from each other, and how to hit each other's buttons, in and out of character. I also get the sense some of this has bled into the published game, which is cool in its way, yet makes adapting it to other groups - whose habits, style, attitudes, and total dynamic is different than yours - more than a little complicated.

So, while that example couldn't have been better, it still leaves me with the same question: how do you get players to start thinking this way?

[Trismegistus]

Yeah, I meant having to swim the horse across. I wasn't explicit enough, though.

Ah, I was imagining a slatted bridge with rope rails. If you're swimming across, I'd still make it Ob 4...the river is fordable, not a rushing torent, but it's not a walk in the park, either. Change the stakes to: If you fail, you're swept downstream, away from the party to whatever peril awaits!

[Thor]

So, while that example couldn't have been better, it still leaves me with the same question: how do you get players to start thinking this way?

This post (http://urdwell.blogspot.com/2007/02/technique-art-of-listening.html) and this post (http://urdwell.blogspot.com/2007/04/technique-its-all-about-teamwork.html) (they go together) are probably the best I've ever done at stating it.

Does that help?

[Trismegistus]

It's funny you posted those, because I just read them the other week. You should put them in a thread and sticky them, because they constitute some of the best advice I've seen on gaming in general - EVER.

I will grant you that my group doesn't communicate as well as yours seems to. It's something we work at. We're not exactly dysfunctional, though, so I'm still left wondering if there isn't something (or things) else we're missing.

Judging from my relatively successful attempts to field correct Obs here, I don't think that's the issue (though it was good practice, which I'd love to continue, and which we could all probably join in on). We have another session coming up tomorrow, so I will double-down on encouraging people to communicate, leading by example as best I can. If anything else crops up, I'll be here banging the drum, of course.

Finally, as an aside, it also might not be a bad idea to put some more discussion as to what makes a good BW game into the books themselves when next they go to print. I loathe the boilerplate "What is an RPG?" section in most games, but BW almost seems to demand it. A lot of what we're discussing is glossed over, yet so essential to what BW is and how it's played. Put it in big bold letters in the front. :)

[Thor]

Ah, I was imagining a slatted bridge with rope rails. If you're swimming across, I'd still make it Ob 4...the river is fordable, not a rushing torent, but it's not a walk in the park, either. Change the stakes to: If you fail, you're swept downstream, away from the party to whatever peril awaits!

That's a fair call and definitely one way to go about it. However, in my opinion, this one was a trick question. I'd probably make the Obstacle of the Riding test equal to the Horse's Will, and maybe add +1 Ob because the horse really doesn't want to cross (though I might mitigate that situational penalty if the horse had a trait like Obedient or similar). Maybe I'd make it +2 Ob if the horse had traits that made it especially willful.

If you succeed in coaxing the horse into the water, I'd have the horse make a Speed test (or maybe a Forte test if it's a particularly wide river) against Ob 3.

I don't think Ob 4 is out of bounds. However, pseudoidiot's description sounded more like Difficult to me rather than Extremely Difficult. So based on the table on page 17 of the brown book, I went with Ob 3.

[Trismegistus]

That's a fair call and definitely one way to go about it. However, in my opinion, this one was a trick question. I'd probably make the Obstacle of the Riding test equal to the Horse's Will, and maybe add +1 Ob because the horse really doesn't want to cross (though I might mitigate that situational penalty if the horse had a trait like Obedient or similar). Maybe I'd make it +2 Ob if the horse had traits that made it especially willful.

If you succeed in coaxing the horse into the water, I'd have the horse make a Speed test (or maybe a Forte test if it's a particularly wide river) against Ob 3.

I don't think Ob 4 is out of bounds. However, pseudoidiot's description sounded more like Difficult to me rather than Extremely Difficult. So based on the table on page 17 of the brown book, I went with Ob 3.

I was thinking something along those lines...using Ride to start and the horse' stats to finish, but that seemed to conflict with Letting It Ride, if somewhat obliquely. I was imagining the onus of the test to be on the rider to stay mounted, spur/guide the horse, and to choose a good place to depart, all wrapped up under Ride. Too much?

[Thor]

I was thinking something along those lines...using Ride to start and the horse' stats to finish, but that seemed to conflict with Letting It Ride, if somewhat obliquely. I was imagining the onus of the test to be on the rider to stay mounted, spur/guide the horse, and to choose a good place to depart, all wrapped up under Ride. Too much?

No, it's not necessarily wrong. But I based my reading on Maneuver on page 241. I think it's ok if you don't want to get that granular. But it's how we would handle those situations by default.

[Trismegistus]

Ah, yes. Now I see it. Strangely, relatively little of import has taken place while mounted in the games I've played. This thread has hit on my two weakest points of knowledge, it seems...sorcery and horsery.

[pseudoidiot]

Ah, yes. Now I see it. Strangely, relatively little of import has taken place while mounted in the games I've played. This thread has hit on my two weakest points of knowledge, it seems...sorcery and horsery.

For some reason 'horsery' really made me giggle. I'm with you on that, though. In what BW I've played there's been very little dealing with sorcery or mounted mechanics. Although in our current group we have a sorcerer and a knight-to-be, so that'll be a good chance for everyone at the table to learn.

[Thor]

Sure. The horse stuff was a bit tricky. If you look carefully though, none of the examples that involved sorcery were actually sorcery tests. The sorcery stuff was just color. It was really just a Wise test for the first example and a Carpentry test with some situational penalties for the second test.

The point of it was that regardless of the color, the principles remain the same.

Note, as the GM, you shouldn't necessarily have to be fluent with how sorcery works or how riding works -- at least not at first. If someone in your group is playing a sorcerer, ask them to become the expert on those rules so they can guide the rest of you. If someone else is playing a mounted warrior, ask them to become the expert on those rules.

As the GM, you will sooner or later have to learn it for yourself, if only so you can better challenge the players in question. But in the meantime, it's perfectly ok -- and a good idea! -- to spread out the burden of knowing the rules.

[Trismegistus]

True, true. But, not knowing Sorcery so well, I wasn't sure if there weren't a rule I was missing or ignorant of.

The advice on parceling out responsibility for systems and details is good stuff. I've done that with other games, and it's always been fairly successful.

[Blackberry]

So, while that example couldn't have been better, it still leaves me with the same question: how do you get players to start thinking this way?

One way you might be able to encourage them is to just hand out the easier tests at the end of the session. Go through every skill and ask if anyone used it, ask them to describe the scene and how they used it, and then award a test off the cuff.

If they can't remember how they used it, or they come to you later and say they forgot about one skill they used, tell them to just remind you during play the moment it comes up instead. I bet they will start asking you during play to make those tests.

[Suicide King]

Oh, I have a few examples as well... I had to think a bit about these in game as well, so other's people's views would be cool.

I'm fighting a guard on a balcony at the top of a flight of stairs (think a classical mansion entrance hall). I want to use speed to jump down besides the stairs in the middle of a Fight! to put some distance between myself and the guard.

My sorcerous friends and I just defeated a great spider, I want to take it apart and figure out how it's webbing organ works... so I will have an easier time designing a spell to let me throw webbing. I'm using anatomy, forking pest-wise and surgery.

I'm in the middle of a big huge fight. Around me my dwarven warriors are fighting a small army of great spiders (40 in total), I have 30 men. The spiders have figured out that they're loosing, so they have cornered 6 dwarves and are taking them down while the rest of them are trying to keep us occupied. I want to use Command, forking conspicious and stentorious debate, to gather my men and break through to the ones that are cornered. Oh, and being their prince they are pretty used to following my commands in a fight. What's my ob? Would you allow me an advantage dice since these are my men and I have led them before?

[Thor]

I'm fighting a guard on a balcony at the top of a flight of stairs (think a classical mansion entrance hall). I want to use speed to jump down besides the stairs in the middle of a Fight! to put some distance between myself and the guard.

It's a basic Positioning test. You've scripted a Withdraw and that's your color. I'd probably give you an Advantage die for having the higher ground.


My sorcerous friends and I just defeated a great spider, I want to take it apart and figure out how it's webbing organ works... so I will have an easier time designing a spell to let me throw webbing. I'm using anatomy, forking pest-wise and surgery.

What you're describing is a linked test. I'd put it at an Ob 3 Spider Anatomy test. Of course, since you probably only have regular anatomy (which is pretty specifically about humans), you'd have to make the test at Beginner's Luck. That makes it a very difficult test indeed. I suggest getting your Spider Anatomy skill up to a decent exponent by dissecting lots and lots of spiders before trying to figure out the spinnerets.


I'm in the middle of a big huge fight. Around me my dwarven warriors are fighting a small army of great spiders (40 in total), I have 30 men. The spiders have figured out that they're loosing, so they have cornered 6 dwarves and are taking them down while the rest of them are trying to keep us occupied. I want to use Command, forking conspicious and stentorious debate, to gather my men and break through to the ones that are cornered. Oh, and being their prince they are pretty used to following my commands in a fight. What's my ob? Would you allow me an advantage dice since these are my men and I have led them before?

According to the Command skill, a Command test versus an obstacle equal to the highest Will on your side can count as a linked test for field maneuvers. So if the highest Will on your side is a B6, then you'd need 6 successes in order to succeed in the test, and 7 successes in order to get an extra die on your Positioning. If the highest Will on your side is G6, then you'd need 8 successes to succeed and 9 successes to get the extra die. I probably wouldn't give you an Advantage die, but I'd allow you to gather help from your Captains, Graybeards, Horncallers and Banner-bearers, assuming you've brought them into the game at some point. You'd do that by using your Circles, benefitting from your Affiliation and Reputation with that Host.

Of course, your Host is also likely to benefit from Formation Fighting Training.