BW2.5 (appropriating what's best from BE)

[Paul B]

Okay, so we're about to get hip-deep into my big BW game (http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?t=4632)here pretty soon. I was hoping to accumulate some wisdom from players of both BW and BE, as well as the thoughts from BWHQ, about what -- if any! -- parts of BE could be considered useful or recommended upgrades to BWRev.

Major changes that jump out:

* BE Circles tests have been referred by Luke as "more balanced and better playing" than the tests in BW. I assume the BE +1ob/+3ob penalties for Circling up a character at the start of, or in the middle of, a Conflict scene is approximately the same as the modifiers in BW for Circling up someone now/soon/whenever. Otherwise...any recommendations on whether BWRev or BE Circles are overall better for BW?

* Pace of rewarding Artha. BWRev recommends 1 or 2 total per session. That is extraordinarily tight-fisted compared to the pace we fell into with BE. I know Beliefs have been tightened and revisited since BWRev; I'm wondering if the Artha cycle has also seen such a revisitation? Maybe this hasn't been considered in the BW world. Basically, without a scene economy keeping a hard cap on rolling and scenes and such, I can totally see passing out 3-4 Fate and 1-2 Persona (i.e. our upper cap for BE Maneuvers) per BW session.

* FoRKs. BE restricts FoRKs to 1x Wise and 1x non-Wise. BW lets you go nuts with the FoRKs. Would BE restrictions prove useful (i.e. faster and more focused/less stretching for implausible connections) or stifling in BW?

I think that's my list for now. The only other differences between BE and BW that I can think of, I can appreciate why they are and should continue to be different (i.e. Artha for ignoring BE instincts; ICHASHITF!; scene economy).

p.

[Bobo]

DoW has seen some slight changes regarding compromise and testable skills for specific maneuvers; might be up your alley.

[Paul B]

You know...I hadn't looked that closely but you're absolutely right. There's a pretty specific breakdown of skills in BE's DOW and there's grades of Compromise. Isn't there just one compromise in BW? I don't have the brown book next to me.

Hmm!

p.

[Mel White]

* FoRKs. BE restricts FoRKs to 1x Wise and 1x non-Wise. BW lets you go nuts with the FoRKs. Would BE restrictions prove useful (i.e. faster and more focused/less stretching for implausible connections) or stifling in BW?

p.

I like the 'feel' of limited FoRKS from BE. I don't think it would be stifling. In fact, it might spark creativity as players would need to look for Help and linked tests to achieve more difficult obstacles.

The BE mechanic I really like is the 'Infection/Disposition' mechanism. I know this has caused some heartache with groups with regards to the connection between the character actions and what's happening with the disposition. Despite that, I like it because it makes clear that something 'big' is going on. Tying character actions to some measure of good guys/bad guys disposition could really make for an 'epic' BW game. Are you thinking about trying something along those lines? I'll think about this to see if I can come up with a means to do so.

I would not go so far, though, as to impose the BE scene economy. I think the scene economy restricts player choice too much.

Mel

[Z-Dog]

...and I'd recommend the scene economy.

It's jarring w/ some players, but w/ people who are game I think it's a great way to focus and drive the game forward.

I think it keeps people on their toes, and makes them ask themselves what's really important, and the fastest and best way to make what they want to happen, happen.

[Mel White]

...and I'd recommend the scene economy.

Of course, BE works so well because of the interlocking pieces...disposition-like mechanics may require scene economy type structure. That is, you have to know when each 'maneuver' is over to then move to maneuver rolls. I was thinking it could be done by tying the 'maneuver roll' to the in-game calendar, but that may be so out of tune with what the characters are doing that it's unsatisfying to the players. Among other things, the scene economy is a timer to signal the need for a maneuver roll.
Mel

[Paul B]

I'm very intrigued by the work done on the Burning Kingdoms project w/r/t setting up big dispo fights and story arcs, but I'm not going that direction with this game. I want to keep it fairly trad and ease some new players into the whole BW thing -- just press into it and relax, it's only kinky the first time!

I'm thinking the scene economy is an inextricable part of an Infection-style mechanic. Very hard for the reasons you've already mentioned.

That said, I think I'm going to be a bit more formal about moving around spotlight time without going for a full-on scene/roll economy. Not yet at least. Also I want my players to advance their characters, and that is VERRRRY slow within BE's scene economy without winning some downtime (which occurs to me: skill training is totally different between BW and BE, hm!).

p.

[johnstone]

You are right, Paul, Circles is better defined in BE.

Limiting FoRKs is no good. As long as a player is introducing/narrating color for each FoRK, they should for sure get as much as they can.

Introducing scene economy and Infection mechanics is ridiculous. BW is a generic fantasy roleplaying system. Yeah, I think those are awesome option rules, as long as they are optional. But they only work for some kinds of fantasy. I mean, what is the point of a scene economy in a one-on-one non-competitive game?

There is no Health attribute in BE - because there is no Tax.

The other major deviation I recall is the special BW rules around Perception - open-ended rolls, tests must be successful for advancement, etc. I don't think these are necessary.

[Paul B]

An interesting insight based on these two comments:


I like the 'feel' of limited FoRKS from BE. I don't think it would be stifling. In fact, it might spark creativity as players would need to look for Help and linked tests to achieve more difficult obstacles.

and


Limiting FoRKs is no good. As long as a player is introducing/narrating color for each FoRK, they should for sure get as much as they can.

I wish there was a lightbulb emoticon because now I can see why FoRKs are restricted in BE. I had thought it was to speed up play and keep everything focused, but now I see it has to do with reinforcing the "get help! now!" effort that synergizes so well with the Infection mechanics (i.e. players only get Infection help dice if they received help in the scenes).

Since I'm not running with an Infection-style mechanic, I think I'll defer to johnstone on this one and go with unlimited-but-narratively-rationalized FoRKs. The worst that'll happen is they'll stifle their own advancement.

p.

[zipht]

I'd recommend the scene economy.

Has anyone here played Beast Hunters? I really like how they deal with a end game mechanic. The GM has an pool of points he buys opposition from. When he is out of points the Hunt or Adventure is over.. If the adventure is a Beast Hunt then the Hunter has one more confict of killing the beast.

What I like about this is that you have a visible reference to just how soon the adventure will be over.. just like the scene economy..

Beast Hunters URL.
http://www.berengad.com/joomla/index.php

So, what I as a game master would like is an end of adventure mechanic, just like other indie games.. ;)
But somehow it has to relate to what makes Burning Wheel so good, the little Bits.

[Bobo]

So, what I as a game master would like is an end of adventure mechanic, just like other indie games.. ;)
But somehow it has to relate to what makes Burning Wheel so good, the little Bits.

Hmm... you mean, something like disposition in BE? ;)

[johnstone]

Since I'm not running with an Infection-style mechanic, I think I'll defer to johnstone on this one and go with unlimited-but-narratively-rationalized FoRKs. The worst that'll happen is they'll stifle their own advancement.

The GM has full fiat authority over how much a player can FoRK and can veto what he feels are inappropriate or "not-roleplayed" FoRKs (book sez so p.40!)

My rule of thumb is this: for each new FoRK, you have to provide MORE color/narration than the last FoRK. Not waaay more, just more. And it has to be just as good or better. No last-minute "oh and I FoRK Horse-wise cause I'm mounted" stuff.

[luke]

You know, if it's in the rules as a GM's responsibility to make a judgement call, it's not "fiat."

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fiat

[johnstone]

I'm sorry, Luke, I got my coding all mixed up.

I meant for "full fiat authority" to be in [mild sarcasm] not [bold]!

I apologize for any confusion I may have caused.

[Kublai]

In our recent BW games, we earn 2-4 Fates and 1-2 Persona per session, it seems. Much more than the book recommends.

[stormsweeper]

The book recommends different artha awards for different levels of play. We're going for heroic over gritty. Plus, as Paul supposes, belief management is creating more Persona than described in the book.

That said, aout the only thing I'd backport from BE would be the Etiquette rules and the Circles modifiers for ability level (which I think we have used from time to time in BW). Maybe a modified Tech Burner, if crafting was an important enough part of the game.

[luke]

I'm sorry, Luke, I got my coding all mixed up.

I meant for "full fiat authority" to be in [mild sarcasm] not [bold]!


LOL!

[Paul B]

Etiqutte! I forgot about that one.

Any other backports people would recommend or un-recommend?

p.

[Kublai]

I don't recommend any sort of disposition or scene economics.

[Deliverator]

There are some specific changes to DoW you might consider.

*I believe Incite works differently in that you penalize the hesitation the target has to roll against if you beat their Will. That is, if they have a Will of 4, and you roll 6 successes on your intimidate, then their Hesitation goes up by 2 for the Steel test. (I think this is true--don't have the book in front of me.)

*This one I'm sure about: Obfuscate works a little more cleanly in BE; instead of having a versus test of the players' dueling skills BEFORE the main roll, the Obfuscator just rolls against the opposition.

Matt

[luke]

Did we backport the Wises rules from BE into our Burning THAC0 game?

[stormsweeper]

Did we backport the Wises rules from BE into our Burning THAC0 game?

I don't think so? I thought BE just clarified how we were already using Wises.

[Paul B]

Did we backport the Wises rules from BE into our Burning THAC0 game?

The first time I ever see "use Wises to allow players to introduce facts to the game" as a rule is in the Monster Burner. Wises are utterly undescribed in BWRev. It's explicated further, but IMO probably not yet far enough, in BE.

p.

[Paul B]

There are some specific changes to DoW you might consider.

*I believe Incite works differently in that you penalize the hesitation the target has to roll against if you beat their Will. That is, if they have a Will of 4, and you roll 6 successes on your intimidate, then their Hesitation goes up by 2 for the Steel test. (I think this is true--don't have the book in front of me.)

*This one I'm sure about: Obfuscate works a little more cleanly in BE; instead of having a versus test of the players' dueling skills BEFORE the main roll, the Obfuscator just rolls against the opposition.

Matt

I'm very strongly considering simply using BE's DOW rules whole-cloth. I'm going to look into it and see if that'll work. I suspect many/most 4-LP characters will be untrained in almost all the DOW skills. I mean, really, who the heck gets Command in BW?

p.

[Thor]

I mean, really, who the heck gets Command in BW?

Master of Forges, Seneschal, High Captain, Prince, Graybeard, Captain (Dwarf), Etharch (Voice of Thunder), Lieutenant (Elf), Captain (Elf), Village Sergeant, Mining Engineer, Guard Captain, Sergeant, Captain, First Mate, Ship’s Captain, Named, Great One, Bears the Lash, Head-Taker, and anyone with a general skill point.

[Paul B]

Master of Forges, Seneschal, High Captain, Prince, Graybeard, Captain (Dwarf), Etharch (Voice of Thunder), Lieutenant (Elf), Captain (Elf), Village Sergeant, Mining Engineer, Guard Captain, Sergeant, Captain, First Mate, Ship’s Captain, Named, Great One, Bears the Lash, Head-Taker, and anyone with a general skill point.

Yeah ... we don't have any of those in our game. Good point re general SPs, although it'd probably take yoga and/or divine intervention to shoehorn Command into the lives of our poor villagers and outcasts.

p.

[Deliverator]

Command is just a FoRK, not a dueling skill, at least not in BW. Is it in BE?

Matt

[Paul B]

Command is just a FoRK, not a dueling skill, at least not in BW. Is it in BE?

Matt

Yes, but only for Incite.

p.

[Thor]

Yes, but only for Incite.

p.

It can be used for Incites in BW as well.

[Paul B]

Okay, so back to the question of using BE's DOW or BW's DOW, what are the differences?

The big difference that jumps out at me is the list of skills attached to each DOW action. IIRC that list restricts both the skill you'll roll as well as available non-Wise FoRKs and helping skills. It looks like the versus matrix is the same, the conditions are the same, the effects are the same. Hell, it even looks like the skills are the same between the games.

Is anything else different? I know there's a passel of special DOW skills (etiquette, demonology, etc.), and I do believe we'll go ahead and use the BE Etiquette system.

p.

[Thor]

I believe the only real differences between the two are Feint vs. Feint and the way Obfuscate works.