Push Comes to Shove - Big Weapons Knockback rules

[eruditus]

Even though armor does a great job taking the bite off of otherwise day-wrecking blows, it always bothered me that most systems do not incorporate the effects of getting hit and knocked around in armor. Even if the witchking's great morning star bounces off the white metal encasing your chest the strength of the blow and the force created by the fulcrum of the weapon's path is sure to knock you on yer behind. Yeah, your plated leather stopped that superb sword thrust but there had to be some force behind a solid blow like that.

PLEASE: I do appreciate input but would FAR prefer if comments can be kept to actual play reports. Thanks.

I figure that there are three ways to emulate this in BW:

1) To limit slowing down things with more rolls these rules only effect: Superb hits, or mark hits by attackers with power 6 or greater, and by unweildy weapons. If the target is Jogging or Sprinting he makes a Speed test. Otherwise he may chose between Power or Speed. The base obstacle is 2. Before the armor roll is made the attacker may allocate two successes to bump the obstacle up to 3 (signifying that the attacker is attempting to power through his opponent).

Modifiers to the obstacle
Target significantly larger -1 ob
Target significantly smaller +1 ob
Power of 8 +1 ob
Gray Power +2 ob
Target wearing plate Armor -1 ob
Target hit with a bludgeoning weapon +1 ob

Effects of the test
If the target beats the obstacle by 2 there is no effect.
If the target meets the obstacle the opponent is staggered
If the target fails the obstacle the target is knocked down
If the target fails by more than 2 under the obstacle the target is pushed back 2 paces

OR

2) This second option negates the need for an additional roll at all. An appropriate successful strike (as above) is a base of 1 die. The above modifiers affect the total number of dice (note these are NOT dice you roll but virtual dice). The root of the appropriate stat (as above) is subtracted from the total. A total of zero has no effect. 1 die staggers the target. 3 dice knocks him down. 5 dice knocks him down and pushes him back 2 paces.

OR

3) Create another manuever - Pushing Strike. Split your dice between a Push and an attack (with the above modifiers affecting the nunber of dice you roll for the push). A successful strike rolls against armor (of course) and a Natural Defenses roll against the Push is made.

[eruditus]

I may tend to lean toward the third option and make it a Melee attack manuever.

[Kublai]

From my experience as a GM and a player, perhaps a simpler way to do it would be to assign a Push Obstacle to each stage of damaged depending on weapon type:

Dagger - Incidental Ob0; Mark Ob0; Superb Ob1
Sword - Incidental Ob0; Mark Ob1; Superb Ob2
Hammer - Incidental Ob1; Mark Ob2; Superb Ob3

The quality of the hit determines how much force is transferred. Then have the defender make a Natural Defense roll. This keeps the rolls to a minimum yet still has the desired effect.

[luke]

I may tend to lean toward the third option and make it a Melee attack manuever.

Well, our actual play involving the use of the Push Kick special move described under the Tae Poong Do martial art in the Burning Wheel has been very satisfactory.

[eruditus]

Okay. So let me sum this up:

- I have a Agility of 4 and spend 1 piont to open Martial Arts up at 2.
- I could either spend 2 more points in character creation or in 8 combats I can get a 4 Martial Arts as long as I use it in combat.

Now in three more combats (11 in all) I can learn Push Kick and gain the effects of Push along with my normal damage?

Hmmm. Sounds good.

[eruditus]

1) So then, if we're making it a manuever, the perspective is that someone falling back from a heavy blow is only something that can be learned?

2) Do you roll seperately for the Push or use the normal attack roll?

[Kublai]

Now in three more combats...I can learn Push Kick and gain the effects of Push along with my normal damage?

Learning the Push Kick maneuver is not linked to combat at all. It requires formal training and 3 full days per chance to test your skill. So it's not as straightforward as you've listed. I thought you brought your books to work? :wink:

Do you roll seperately for the Push or use the normal attack roll?

One attack roll determines the outcome of the damage and push effect. Successes of the attack translate into the Natural Defense Obstacle.

Obviously, the perspective of making it a maneuver isn't necessarily reality-based. Rather, it makes the effect "special." If you were indeed to make every weapon capable of pushback, such moves would be useless.

[eruditus]

Learning the Push Kick maneuver is not linked to combat at all. It requires formal training and 3 full days per chance to test your skill. So it's not as straightforward as you've listed. I thought you brought your books to work? :wink:

"In order to master the maneuver and add it to his repertoire, a character must successfully test his skill vs the obstacle three times." I took this and the following passages to mean that you just needed to "try" the manuever once every three days to learn it. I see how it could be interpreted as these tests aren't used for anything but learning the manuever, but that is certainly not the only interpretation.

Do you roll seperately for the Push or use the normal attack roll?

One attack roll determines the outcome of the damage and push effect. Successes of the attack translate into the Natural Defense Obstacle.

Obviously, the perspective of making it a maneuver isn't necessarily reality-based. Rather, it makes the effect "special." If you were indeed to make every weapon capable of pushback, such moves would be useless.

True enough. Although my general rules would say that you need a Superb attack (or heavy mark attacks) to even consider it. Thus it would equate to either "Push Kick is a more effective Push than standard hits" OR you change the manuever to give it a bonus to Push.