Unit Strengths in BE

[cmoeller]

Ultimately, since troops are the “weapons” of the BE universe, I want to get a more concrete idea of how to handle them in BE. When the fight comes down, it’s seems like it's always totally arbitrary: 10 guys in Iron vs. 10 street punks. This is an attempt to formalize what unit sizes are available to different characters (roughly), and also how a commander can enhance his forces, so that players can operate more strategically: resource rolls to maintain their forces, training and resource tests to increase the power of their forces, mobilization and logistics tests to field their units at maximum effectiveness. For example, make a resource test to get your street punks some sensors and a guy who can train them to use them.

I’m discussing Anvil forces here, but the principles apply to Hammer as well.

1. Affiliations
Affiliations are from 1-3 dice, and also can represent the force pool available for a firefight. Affiliations should also have a troop component to them, which represents how large or small the associated troop pool is:

1D: large pool of non-combatants (EX2) or a small pool of EX 3 combatants
2D: large pool of exponent 3 combatants, or a small pool of exponent 4 combatants
3D: army of EX2-3 troops, large pool of exponent 4 troops, or small pool of exponent 5 troops

In other words, the exponent of the troops an affiliation gives you is as listed for a small pool of troops, but can be dropped to “buy” a larger pool. This would be chosen during character burning, and could be raised through training, resource tests for up-gunning,etc...

2. Lifepaths and Traits
Among the human lifepaths, the most obvious ones that will give a character a troop pool are the Anvil/Hammer/Forged Lord traits. But other lifepaths also offer characters pools of men they can call on. Starting at the highest, macro-level and working down:

Armies: Characters in command or leadership positions may start play with large armed resources. These would be armies that the character doesn’t lead personally, but whose orders they (hopefully), follow. The armies would be composed of Battalions.

Access: Activating an Army would involve a series of building rolls, making a logistics roll to get the unit supplied and mobilized, circling up a commander and giving him orders. But these powerful characters would have immediate access to a Battalion or two of Guards that they personally command (the Imperial Guard in France, the Emperor’s Crimson Guard in star wars, etc...).

Personal Guard: up to 2 Squads (depending on the occasion and ostentation of the character)

Exponents: The Armies will have a core of veterans at the listed exponent, the rest being one exponent lower. The Guard is as listed for the first Battalion, reduced by one for the second.

Lifepaths/Traits: Cotar Antistes, Cotar Arderes, Lord Steward, Executive Official, First Speaker, Forged Lord (if the ruler of one or more planets), Void Lord.

Battalions: Armies are composed of Battalions. In the Iron Empires, battalions are personal armies, which characters can employ with relative freedom (they also are responsible for maintaining them). These are units of fixed size. They would start play at the affiliation exponent. Void Lords aren’t bound by the imperial restrictions on force size, so they could choose larger force pools of lower-exponent guys. Forged Lords also are permitted more lattitude, and could field multiple battalions.

Lifepaths/Traits: Anvil Lord, Hammer Lord, Forged Lord, Void Lord, Cotar Fomas

Access: The Battalion must be maintained (the listed resource roll). Other than that, it’s the lord’s personal army, to mobilize as he wishes. Full mobilization should require a building scene in the previous maneuver (logistics, resources or equivilent roll), otherwise, only a portion of the Battalion will be prepared to fight at the drop of a hat. Say one company in a battalion at EXP 3 or less, and two companies in a EXP 4 or higher battalion.

Personal Guard: up to a squad.

Exponents: As listed for a single battalion. A Forged/Void Lord can increase his forces by additional Battalions, but each Battalion added has an Exponent of 1 less than the last (example, a Forged Lord with an Affiliation of 3 wants 3 Battalions. The first is at the listed exponent, 5, the second is exponent 4, the third is exponent 3). This increases the maintenance costs astronomically.

Sub-Units: Characters who are unit commanders have troops under their direct command, but are also, themselves, under the direct command of a Lord or Church leader, and wouldn’t have a free hand in how those troops would be employed. These force pools would range from a battalion down to a company or so for Lieutenants/X-O’s and the various Captains.

Lifepaths/Traits: Cotar Fomas, Lord Pilot, Hammer Captain, Lieutenant, X-O, Anvil Captain, Sodalis-Captain, Inquisitor, Circle of 10,000, Ship’s Captain

Access: These commanders have access to their security detatchment, but must operate under orders from their superiors for any larger mobilization. The sub-unit doesn’t need to be maintained by the commander (no resource rolls), but logistics and bureaucracy stand in for the maintenance. The squeaky wheel gets the ammunition.

Personal Guard: a security detatchment (fire team).

Exponents: As listed for a company, reduced by one for a battalion.

Non-Military: characters with connections to unofficial military assets (thugs, rebels, etc..). These are polyglot forces that can range from a dozen thugs to hordes of rebels. They will be low exponent troops as a rule, so large numbers of men could be available for small affiliations. Also, whether or not the character can use the troops with a free hand is more open to the character concept: are you a crime lord? Free hand. Are you in command of a unit of rebels, but not the rebellion’s overall leader? Less of a free hand.

Lifepaths/Traits: Owner-Aboard, Rebel Priest, Freebooter, Insurrectionist, Outlaw, Pirate, Smuggler, Criminal, Traveler

Access: This has got to be worked out at the table, since there’s so much variation in these organizations. For a small group (smuggler’s crew, outlaw’s band of thieves), treat it as a Personal guard equal to a squad or two. For a larger group (pirate fleet, crime family, rebel monastery), treat it as a Battalion or Sub-Unit depending on whether or not the character is running the show or is just a lieutenant.

Personal Guard: varies.

Exponents: The unit’s starting exponents will be reduced by one outside of the personal guard in all cases.


Personal Bodyguards: The lifepaths listed here don’t have any military to call on per se, but could certainly have a personal guard, up to a squad in size.

Court Lord, Lady, League Official, Cabinet Member.

I’ll consider what skills the commander can draw upon in these different groups next time (I realize there’s already some of this dealt with in the book, but I don’t have it at my fingertips).

Any thoughts, comments, additions?

-Chris

[gooderguy]

in my experience, # of troops is mainly just color, as that 10 man anvil company could take on a whole army of street thugs... those #s are taken care of with the 'outnumber opponents' and 'vastly outnumber opponents' bonuses in firefight disposition building. the level of training (anvil or iron or nothing) also gives a bonus, so i'm not sure why the nitty gritty is necessary. in my opinion, it would probably bog down play.

to maximize your troops would just take a building role or two, using strategy, logistics, and maybe resources to get your troops to the fight. the most any of those roles would get you is a +1 or +2 to your next firefight dispo. i wouldn't call it arbitrary, just purposefully ambiguous. it's all just color for the more intense moments of play.

[Sydney Freedberg]

I started thinking about how the modern US Army handles HHCs (Headquarters, Headquarters Company) and PSDs (Personal Security Details), and then I realized that the way the Iron Empires universe works, the issue for how many troops you actually have at your beck and call at any given moment is much less about practical military considerations than prestige.

"How many troops" actually becomes a big issue in Shakespeare's King Lear, as the "retired" King finds his ungrateful daughters slowly whittling down the number of knights he has in attendance:

LEAR:... Ourself, by monthly course,
With reservation of an hundred knights,
By you to be sustain'd, shall our abode
Make with you by due turns.
(Act I, Scene I)

GONERIL: ...Here do you keep a hundred knights and squires;
Men so disorder'd, so debosh'd and bold,
That this our court, infected with their manners,
Shows like a riotous inn: epicurism and lust
Make it more like a tavern or a brothel
Than a graced palace. The shame itself doth speak
For instant remedy: be then desired
By her, that else will take the thing she begs,
A little to disquantity your train....
(Act I, Scene IV)

REGAN: I dare avouch it, sir: what, fifty followers?
Is it not well? What should you need of more?
Yea, or so many, sith that both charge and danger
Speak 'gainst so great a number? How, in one house,
Should many people, under two commands,
Hold amity? 'Tis hard; almost impossible.
(Act II, Scene IV)

And of course Lear ends up wandering with no companion but the Fool.
(Quotes courtesy of anawesome MIT site that puts the entire text of every Shakespeare play online - http://shakespeare.mit.edu/).

[cmoeller]

in my experience, # of troops is mainly just color, as that 10 man anvil company could take on a whole army of street thugs... those #s are taken care of with the 'outnumber opponents' and 'vastly outnumber opponents' bonuses in firefight disposition building. the level of training (anvil or iron or nothing) also gives a bonus, so i'm not sure why the nitty gritty is necessary. in my opinion, it would probably bog down play.

Yeah, possibly it would. But, in the same way most players want "weapon porn", i'm into "army porn". For me thinking about this stuff is exciting! I certainly don't want any bogging down, what I want is an idea of what I'm working with. Say I'm a street thug. Could I make a building roll to gain a +2 overwhelming numbers bonus attacking an Anvil fortress? The GM would say "no, that's not possible," but I want to be able to say that in less obvious cases without feeling like I'm, again, arbitrarily telling the players what they can and can't do. I'd like for them to be able to gauge for themselves.

to maximize your troops would just take a building role or two, using strategy, logistics, and maybe resources to get your troops to the fight. the most any of those roles would get you is a +1 or +2 to your next firefight dispo. i wouldn't call it arbitrary, just purposefully ambiguous. it's all just color for the more intense moments of play.

I'm all for being purposefully ambiguous, but, again, the weapon lists aren't ambiguous in the slightest. Luke made a decision to go into great detail there (and I think it's cool). For me (FOR ME), the more interesting place for the detail to zoom in is on the unit level, which is where 99% of the firefight action happens.

-Chris

[Paul B]

Personally I'm all for greater narrative guidance even if it's all "just color." I don't know that it has to be super-detailed but I'd love to know if being "vastly outnumbered" by a bunch of conscripts means my crack assassin squad is facing a crowd of dozens or a horde of thousands.

That, to me, would be super-useful: Kind of a chart of various typical force types and what they are outnumbered/vastly outnumbered by.

In any case, it's always cool to read more details about what's in your head, Chris. Keep posting!

p.

[NkEnNy]

1. Affiliations
Affiliations are from 1-3 dice, and also can represent the force pool available for a firefight. Affiliations should also have a troop component to them, which represents how large or small the associated troop pool is:

1D: large pool of non-combatants (EX2) or a small pool of EX 3 combatants
2D: large pool of exponent 3 combatants, or a small pool of exponent 4 combatants
3D: army of EX2-3 troops, large pool of exponent 4 troops, or small pool of exponent 5 troops

In other words, the exponent of the troops an affiliation gives you is as listed for a small pool of troops, but can be dropped to “buy” a larger pool. This would be chosen during character burning, and could be raised through training, resource tests for up-gunning,etc...

I like this notion. To extrapolate:

Affiliation and Mechanics:
Essential Concept
Increased Affiliation at its most basic level provides competent soldiers, though not necessarily battle-tested, (Exponent 3) at increased unit sizes.

Affiliation 1D: 1 Platoon worth of Exponent 3 troops
Affiliation 2D: 1 Company worth of Exponent 3 troops
Affiliation 3D: 1 Battalion worth of Exponent 3 troops.

Unit Sizes
The Abstract 'Effective Size' Mechanics works as follows:


Squad....................(Approximately 5-25 Men) (+1 Bonus to Infiltration)
Platoon..................(Approximately 30-50 Men) (+0 Bonus to Infiltration)
Company...............(Approximately 75-200 Men) (-1 Bonus to Infiltration)
Battalion ...............(Approximately 500-1'000 Men) (-2 Bonus to Infiltration)
Regiment/Brigade..(Approximately 2'000-4'000 Men) (Infiltration not possible)
Horde/Army..........(Approximately 5'000-10'000+ Men) (Infiltration not possible)


In Firefight
In a firefight having an effective larger size while causing Disposition casualties is magnified at the following rates:
- One step larger unit size than your target increases all enemy disposition loss by 2x.
- Two step size advantage increases this to 3x.
- There is no penalty for having a lower size.

During Initial Dispositions Roll
Compare the Effective Size rating of each sides TOTAL troop number. The basic trooper is assumed to be armed with standard ballistic armor and an assault weapon as appropriate to his index/scenario settings. This might be modified by further modification.

EFFECTIVE SIZE TRAIT:
A Man wearing Anvil armor is essential worth 2 Men
A Man wearing Iron Armor is essentially worth 4 Men (NOTE1: Perhaps this ought to be higher? 10x or even 20x?)

Unit Modifications
To customize a unit the effective 'size' is modified. The various trade ins that can be made are as follows:

Possible Exponent Trades -1 Exponent for +1 Effective Size

Possible Size Trades
Size
-1 Size for +1 Exponent

Training and Equipment
-1/2 Size for Specific Environmental Advantage Trait
-1/2 Size for Specific 'Effective Technology' Trait
-1/2 Size for +1 Effective Infiltration Exponent

Weapons
-1/2 Size for Specific Weaponry Bonus Trait
+1/2 Size for out dated (indexed) Weaponry
+1 Size for no ranged weaponry

Protection
+1/2 Size for no armor
-1/2 Size for Platoon worth of Anvil Armour.
-1 Size for Squad worth of Iron Armour

Specific 'Technology' Traits
The exact nature of this purchase must be precisely defined. These can typically confer the various 'Superior xx' bonuses within their particular field of expertise.

EXAMPLES:
- Compact Assault Weapons (for urban situations)
- Arctic/Jungle/Desert Area Survival knowledge. (Extreme Environment)
- High end long range communications modules.
In essence anything that might confer an small advantage within a few range of scenarios.

At Character Creation and beyond.
This leaves considering the very relevant Anvil Lord trait. Going by the book wouldn't it be appropriate to assume that this trait does not necessarily provide units by itself, but rather allows the player to acquire said troops in a legit fashion?

Therefore making it unnecessary to define specific game mechanics? (NOTE2: Perhaps just a small bonus?) If a lord wants to rustle up some troops he is permitted, or even obligated to do so.

Resources, Circles and Build scenes
These are already functioning mechanics that already perform this duty and could cover even more.
If a player wants personal security guards or especially large unit sizes (in a military sense) he will simply have to pay for or secure these in play. Additionally it would be very appropriate to use Building scenes to 'improve' already defined/existing troops. And why not? While preparing for war it seems the natural thing to do. :)


Comments, questions and suggestions are very welcome.

[NkEnNy]

Numbers, as mentioned add only color to the game and have therefore been kept purposely vague.

NOTE1: Perhaps this ought to be higher? 10x or even 20x?
Iron armor is unquestionably potent. How many generic 'redshirts' does a single "Iron armored 'redshirt' replace?

NOTE2: Perhaps just a small bonus?
A +1/2 Size bonus, neatly paying for the cost of Anvil Armour (for the majority of his troops) seems oddly fitting.

NOTE3: Horde armies and beyond
If for whatever the reason a player or NPC wants to amass 5000+ or more men in a single unit, the solutions are simple. Either pay for multiple lower level affiliations (and merge them in play) or upgrade already existing units. (again in play)

NOTE4: Squad Support Weaponry
Unfortunately the only thing this leaves very vague are squad support weapons. Numbers, quality, and capabilities. Suggestions? or just color.
(Note that the 'Direct Fire' Action lets you prioritize those soldiers armed with heavy weapons.)

[cmoeller]

I like this notion. To extrapolate:

Affiliation and Mechanics:
Essential Concept
Increased Affiliation at its most basic level provides competent soldiers, though not necessarily battle-tested, (Exponent 3) at increased unit sizes.

Affiliation 1D: 1 Platoon worth of Exponent 3 troops
Affiliation 2D: 1 Company worth of Exponent 3 troops
Affiliation 3D: 1 Battalion worth of Exponent 3 troops.





At Character Creation and beyond.
This leaves considering the very relevant Anvil Lord trait. Going by the book wouldn't it be appropriate to assume that this trait does not necessarily provide units by itself, but rather allows the player to acquire said troops in a legit fashion?

Therefore making it unnecessary to define specific game mechanics? (NOTE2: Perhaps just a small bonus?) If a lord wants to rustle up some troops he is permitted, or even obligated to do so.

Resources, Circles and Build scenes
These are already functioning mechanics that already perform this duty and could cover even more.
If a player wants personal security guards or especially large unit sizes (in a military sense) he will simply have to pay for or secure these in play. Additionally it would be very appropriate to use Building scenes to 'improve' already defined/existing troops. And why not? While preparing for war it seems the natural thing to do. :)


Comments, questions and suggestions are very welcome.
>>Possible Size Trades

This in particular is a very cool idea, NEN. The more I think about it, the more numbers really AREN'T just color. The exact number of guys in a Horde may be abstracted, but in a fire team, they're extremely valuable. You lose your Squad Support weapon guy, and it affects your team. If you have two Support guys, and you lose one, you still have a capability. I'm not super comfortable just saying "Hey, you know I'd have more than one Weapon guy, so I'll take another shot opportunity." Just as a f'rinstance.

I've gotta run now, but I really do want to work on this some more. Thanks for your ideas.

Chris

[NkEnNy]

Thanks,

I think the main problem with the abstraction presented by the Firearms(!) rules in Burning Empires is that they always revolve around symmetrical forces. The various Disposition bonuses, as well as the "Direct Fire" rules do not mesh well with lopsided engagements. (or different division of forces)

While I agree that the Firefight rules should be presented in a colourful and indefinite manner. I believe that some additional sub-rules ought to be enforced in order to give a seemingly authentic feel for combat both personal and mass scale.

Solution

Either through the Size division (presented above) or through a system similar to the Techburner. Unit traits need to be quantified.
Combat rules remain similar. But some Actions (particularly "Direct Fire" and "Close Combat") should be modified on three different levels.
- 2a. Personal (Squad combat and smaller) Where all 'actors' are represented.
- 2b. Military Units (Platoon, Company, Battalion) Where only Leaders and specialists are represented
- 2c. Massive Actions (Brigade, Army) Where only leaders are represented
Military Units quantified on the Anvil level as "Infantry", "Cavalry", "Artillery", or "Airpower"


The larger the "unit" the more effective disposition loss can be caused.
The smaller the "unit" the more effective FIREPOWER can be applied on an personal level.Lethal
The smaller the "unit" the more unaccounted for specialist actions can be performed.


It bears noting that to a lesser or greater degree the current Firefight rules covers this on a basic abstract level. I'd like these advantages and traits to be presented with clearer tactical applications.

Current issues

It shouldn't be possible to hide a sniper in a Horde.
It shouldn't be possible to cause massive disposition losses by merely having two (special weapon armed) characters surrounded by thousands of useless redshirts (ex1-2)
'Direct Fire' should be more effective at causing disposition loss, rather than just possibly causing casualties.

[Lance Blyth]

Army porn?! Count me in! As a Marine infantry officer and now historian for the federal government, I've never met a TO&E or line diagram I didn't like. Below is my take, borrowing from pretty much everybody on this thread. Thanks!

HAMMER & ANVIL: Force Strengths in Burning Empires

1. Affiliations

Affiliations represent how powerful, competent, and capable the force is, i.e. its starting Exponent.

1D: Ex 3
2D: Ex 4
3D: Ex 5

Rule of Thumb: In order to get something more, you have to give up a level of Exponent.


2. Forces

Lifepaths give a character access to a force. The Anvil/Hammer/Forged Lord traits are the most obvious.

2a. Force: The “Force,” from the Federation military’s Space-Ground Task Force organization, is largest military unit in the Iron Empires.

Lifepaths/Traits: Cotar Antistes, Cotar Arderes, Lord Steward, Executive Official, First Speaker, Forged Lord (if the ruler of one or more planets), Void Lord.

Organization: A Force typically consists of at least one Anvil Battalion and one Hammer Wing (see below for more description of these). To get more battalions or wings, the exponent of each additional unit would be reduced by one from the starting exponent.

Access: Activating a Force would involve a series of building rolls, making a logistics roll to get the unit supplied and mobilized, circling up a commander and giving him orders. But these powerful characters would have immediate access to a battalion of Guards and flight of ships that they personally command.

Personal Guard: Up to 2 Squads.

2b. Battalion/Wing: In the Iron Empires, Battalions and Wings are personal units, which characters can employ with relative freedom, although they are responsible for maintaining them. These are units of fixed size and start play at the affiliation exponent.

Void Lords aren’t bound by the imperial restrictions on force size, so they could more lower-exponent units. Neither are Anvil Lords on sub-index worlds, especially outworlds, as they can’t easily get their troops off-planet. When increasing the number of units, drop the exponent of the second unit by 1, the third by 2, and so on.

Lifepaths/Traits: Anvil Lord, Hammer Lord, Void Lord, Cotar Fomas.

Organization: A typical low and high index Anvil Battalion consists of battalion headquarters and assets, a company in iron, and two line companies in anvil armor, all with full grav-lift capability. A zero index Anvil Battalion has three line companies in ballistic armor with non-grav (ground or pressor) lift. A battalion totals 450-650 men, at full strength.

A battalion headquarters would have a staff with an X-O, an Adjutant, and a Quartermaster, along with their staff (normally an experienced soldier or sergeant as chief with 1-3 clerks) and 8-12 guards, along with two Grav Tactical Operations Centers, two Anvil Assault Sleds, and several grav sleds with their crews. Battalion assets include an Attack Platoon with 4-6 Attack Sleds, their crews and maintainers; a Scout Platoon with 4-6 modified grav sleds and crews; a Signals Platoon with several vehicles and 10-12 techs; a Maintenance Platoon with 2-4 vehicles, crews, armorers, and machinists, a Supply Platoon with 3-4 vehicles and crews, and a Medical Platoon manning 2-3 evac sleds with one pilot and one medic each and a Field Hospital with a doctor, several medics and orderlies. (In a zero-index battalion all vehicles would be non-grav.)

A Hammer Wing normally has 2-4 Cruisers, 4-6 Patrol Craft, 4-6 Assault Shuttles, and 1-3 Civilian Hammers or Mercators plus some cargo shuttles (for re-supply), organized into Flights of 2-4 ships, either same-type (ie all cruisers) or mixed, for 10-20 ships total. A wing also has a permanent base under a Port Officer with a Maintenance Flight, a Supply Flight, and a Security Flight of 20-40 men.

Personal Guard: Up to a Squad.

2c. Sub-Units: Characters who are sub-unit commanders of have troops under their direct command, but are also, themselves, under the direct command of a Lord or Church leader, and wouldn’t have a free hand in how those troops would be employed. Companies are the normal Anvil sub-unit, while Flights are typical for Hammer. Sub-units have the Exponent of their commander’s Affiliation dice.

Lifepaths/Traits: Cotar Fomas, Lord Pilot, Hammer Captain, Lieutenant, X-O, Anvil Captain, Sodalis-Captain, Inquisitor, Circle of 10,000, Ship’s Captain.

Organization: The Squad is the basic Anvil small unit. It consists of a Squad Leader, Assistant Squad Leader, Squad Support Weapon Specialist, Signals Tech, Medic (who is a combatant), and 3-6 soldiers, for 8-12 total men, often organized into two fire teams of 4-6 each. More elite units replace soldiers with more specialists such as a scout, an engineer, or a stormtrooper. Squads are numbered 1-9 on their armor by company, with each man numbered 1-12 within their squad. A soldier is often identified by squad/number, such as 2/7 or 5/10.

Three squads plus a lift section (4 vehicles with 8-12 crewmen) make up a platoon. A Platoon Headquarters has a Platoon Commander, Platoon Sergeant, Signals Tech, Medic, and up to 2 Runners. A platoon totals 36-54 men. Platoons are numbered, but are usually referred to by color in operation: Red, White, Blue, Black, Green, Brown. Members of the Platoon Headquarters are numbered with the commander as 1, the signals tech as 2, the medic as 3, the platoon sergeant as 4, and so on. So the Red Platoon commander would typically be “Red Leader” or “Red 1” on the radio.

Three platoons comprise a company. A Company Headquarters consists of a Commander, an X-O, two Signals Techs, two Medics, an Armorer, a Machinist, and up to 6 Soldiers as a security detachment, plus a lift section of one tactical operations vehicle and one IFV and 4-6 crew. A company totals 120-180 soldiers. Companies are typically numbered one to three, with iron companies always numbered one, but also have a designation such as “Sword,” “Dragon,” “Whirlwind,” “Black Heart,” etc. The headquarters is often called “Base,” i.e. “Dragon Base.” Note that in combat, companies cross-attach platoons, so a company might have an iron platoon and two anvil platoons. Learning how to coordinate these disparate elements takes some practice.

The Ship is the main Hammer sub-unit typically with a captain or commander, a pilot or helmsman, a sensor or signals specialist, a damage control specialist and a several gunners. Ships may be further organized into flights of 2-4, but these are often only organized for specific missions.

Personal Guard: A security detachment (fire team).


3. Examples

3a. Baron Sheva’s Landwehr Brigade (from Sheva’s War): Baron Jepard Sheva is an Anvil Lord with Affiliation: Anvil 2D. This gives him a force as follows:

1st “Shappardun” Battalion (Anvil Battalion, sub-index): Ex 4

The Baron, with several of Taramai’s valleys to defend decides he needs more units. Since Taramai is a sub index outworld he is able to add them. So he organizes two more battalions:

2nd “Shappar” Battalion (Anvil Battalion, sub-index): Ex 3
3rd “Shazar” Battalion (Anvil Battalion, sub-index): Ex 2

The Baron also realizes his forces will need fire support and so recruits an artillery battalion with two batteries, one of six self-propelled guns and one of six towed pieces. However, as his fourth battalion, it would be an Exp 1 unit, not very useful, so he chooses to reduce the exponent of his first battalion by one, to make the artillery Exp 2. His Brigade now looks like this:

1st “Shappardun” Battalion (Anvil Battalion, sub-index): Ex 3
2nd “Shappar” Battalion (Anvil Battalion, sub-index): Ex 3
3rd “Shazar” Battalion (Anvil Battalion, sub-index): Ex 2
4th Artillery (“Grandpa Sheva”) Battalion (sub-index): Exp 2

Taramai is, as Sheva’s War says, “unable to maintain an adequate Landwehr.” (Note that since Baron Sheva combines military and civil authority, his brigade does not need an extensive support organization.)

3b. CHOT Guard (from Faith Conquers): Commander Tarrak Fike has the Forged Trait and Affiliation: Anvil 1D. This provides the following force Ex 3 Anvil Battalion:

Iron Company
2 x Line Companies

However, the CHOT wants to be Forged, so the GM determines it will cost one Exponent to one company, but without a Hammer affiliation, it will only yield an Exponent 1 Hammer Wing. Fike agrees and chooses to make his third company Ex 2. He also wants to upgrade his iron company, so reduces his other line company one exponent. His force now is as follows:

Hammer Wing Ex 1
Anvil Battalion
Iron Company Ex 3
Line Company Ex 2
Line Company Ex 2

It is a Force, as Lieutenant Urci Fox said, whose “Hammer’s nothing more than a couple of beat up old mercators and tugs” and the “iron company’s supposed to be good, the line companies are dirt from what I hear.”

3c. Hotok Temple Guard (from Faith Conquers): Cotar Fomas Trevor Faith, Anvil Lord, Affiliation: Anvil 1D. His Anvil Battalion is all Ex 3. He manages to convince the GM to swap out one line company for a cavalry company, equipped with more powerful IFVs. The GM agrees, but reduces the iron company exponent by one. The Guard is now as follows:

Iron Company Ex 2
Armored Infantry Company Ex 3
Cavalry Company: Ex 3

Faith thus finds himself with “good material,” but the iron troopers will have problems in his upcoming live-fire exercies.


4. Sources

Initial Concept, Lifepaths/Traits, Access, Personal Guard: Chris Moeller, “Unit Strengths in BE,” http://burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5064

Unit types: Burning Empires, p. 360 (assuming “Ob 17— Upkeep for an iron company,” is a typo and “company” should read “battalion.”)

Anvil Battalion organization: Faith Conquers, chapter 2, Lieutenant Urci Fox states the CHOT Guard, with one iron and two line companies, is “a anvil battalion.”

Small unit organization: Burning Empires, p. 466.

General: GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces.

That's my thoughts, lots of room to play, need more on the Hammer side.

[Sydney Freedberg]

This is a really cool concept. It probably needs another iteration, since the rule say "A 1D affiliation represents a small or poorly kept force comprised mostly of conscripts and landwehr with exponent 3 abilities. A 2D affiliation represents a competent or sizeable force ..." -- i.e. there's an implication that a 1D force is smaller than a 2D force. Maybe somehow this could tie into the Firefight rules for getting initial disposition bonuses for outnumbering or "vastly outnumbering" the opponent? I'll have to sit down with the brick and think more systematically about this. You're onto something very interesting here.

[Sydney Freedberg]

Oh, and the mighty Thor, who should know, fleshes out the numbers point in this thread (http://burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?p=52937#post52937), relevant portion quoted below:

The traits explain it this way: a 1D affiliation means a small or poorly kept force, a 2D affiliation means a sizable and well-trained force, and a 3D affiliation means a large and elite force. How exactly that breaks down into actual numbers is up to you and your group and what feels right for the world you've got.....Note that just because you've got a 3D affiliation, it doesn't automatically mean that you get the Outnumbering advantage. You might have a 3D Hammer force, but if I've lured one of your patrol ships into an ambush with my building scene, then my 1D Hammer force might very well get the Outnumbering bonus. It's all about how you set up the situation in play.....

[Lance Blyth]

Oh, and the mighty Thor, who should know, fleshes out the numbers point in this thread (http://burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?p=52937#post52937)

Dang, missed this before, good points and within BE. I think Chris head the nail on the head when he insisted Traits such as Anvil Lord or Hammer Captain have to modify the Affiliation. What is "small" for a Forged Lord might be large for an Anvil Captain! Thus my push towards some semi-standard unit types and sizes.

[Lance Blyth]

Building Anvil

Thinking about building Anvil and following on Thor’s post here http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5498 to wit “a 1D affiliation means a small or poorly kept force, a 2D affiliation means a sizable and well-trained force, and a 3D affiliation means a large and elite force”

and Chris’s post here http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5594 that “The Anvil Battalion is a relatively compact outfit designed to fight on OTHER worlds, and is privately maintained by an Anvil or Forged Lord. It's generally grav-mobile with organic troop transports (that are banned by law and custom from mounting anything bigger than Vehicular scale weapons). Battalion is a flexible term (like the old Regiment). It can be anywhere
from 3-10+ Companies in strength, depending on the specifics of the title the commanding Lord is granted”

an Anvil thus has both its size and exponent tied to the Affiliation die. Now Sydney is working on what kinds of companies an Anvil Battalion would have, I am interested in how many a Battalion could have.

Say a 1D Anvil Affiliation means 3 company Slots at Ex 3, 2D means 6 company Slots at Ex 4, and 3D means 9 company Slots at Ex 5.

You could swap Exponent for Slots or Slots for Exponent, at a ratio of 1 Ex to 2 Slots.

There would be required companies, say at least 1 Iron Co and 1 Armored Infantry.

There could cheaper companies, say one Slot gets you two Security or Light Infantry Companies, and expensive companies, taking an Artillery Battery for your Anvil takes two Slots.

Of course, once game play begins, your Anvil Lord can work to increase both the size and exponent of his or her battalion.

Does this make some sense?

[cmoeller]

Strikes me as an elegant solution, Lance. And I see where the confusion with "troop transports not carrying large weapons" came from. I meant space-transports, not IFV's and suchlike.

Chris

[Sydney Freedberg]

Say a 1D Anvil Affiliation means 3 company Slots at Ex 3, 2D means 6 company Slots at Ex 4, and 3D means 9 company Slots at Ex 5. You could swap Exponent for Slots or Slots for Exponent, at a ratio of 1 Ex to 2 Slots. There would be required companies, say at least 1 Iron Co and 1 Armored Infantry. There could cheaper companies, say one Slot gets you two Security or Light Infantry Companies, and expensive companies, taking an Artillery Battery for your Anvil takes two Slots. Of course, once game play begins, your Anvil Lord can work to increase both the size and exponent of his or her battalion.

I really like this, Lance.

One question to Chris about canonicity: Are Iron companies sufficiently common that they should be a "required" choice? I'm especially thinking about Taramai's landwehr, which is mostly light infantry and maybe one artillery company, in the terms we've been setting up, with Iron only for individual leaders. Or look at Hotok in Faith Conquers, where the CHOT and the Mundas Humanitas both have one company of Iron -- is that impressive or average?

[Z-Dog]

you know where this is all going, don't you?

expansion pack ;)P

[cmoeller]

There is no Iron requirement, no. Any Anvil Lord worth his salt will have at least one Iron unit, even if it's just a guard to keep up appearances.

Iron is like the finest plate armor. Only a small percentage of the wealthiest warriors will be able to afford it.

-chris

[Sydney Freedberg]

So any Anvil Lord but the poorest (e.g. Baron Sheva) will have, say, a squad of 4-5 Lords-Pilot in full Iron as his personal guard and as the iron fist in his velvet glove. But only the more substantial Anvil Lords can maintain a full company of (if you follow my TO&E) of 19 Lords-Pilot in Iron apiece (let alone several companies).

Something like this, then:

Anvil Lord's Anvil Affiliation - Amount of Iron - % of Anvil Lords in this class
1D Affiliation - one Iron squad (4-5 Lords-Pilot) - 25% of Anvil Lords
2D Affiliation - one Iron company (19-20 Lords-Pilot) - 50% of Anvil Lords
3D Affiliation - two or more Iron companies (40-100 Lords-Pilot) - 25% of Anvil Lords

[Whoops. I misread my own spreadsheet! See this post in the "Anvil TO&E Builder" thread (http://burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?p=55838#post55838) for correction]

[Sydney Freedberg]

P.S. In the scheme above, presumably Baron Sheva started with a 1D affiliation and then used Lance's optional rules to "buy down" his Iron from a squad of 4-5 to just his personal armor. What did he buy up in return, I wonder? Maybe that rocket-assisted artillery battery which provides covering fire to Sheva's unit in the initial clash at the granary? Maybe the space tug? Maybe a second Psychologist (Vienne) to help his wife -- considering what crap the rest of his troops are, he's got a remarkable number of Psychologists.

[zabieru]

In my brain, Lt. Vienne is a player character. I don't know why but I have a total mancrush on him. He's such a pimp.

I'm gonna say that Baron Sheva bought either a Psychologist (Lady Ahmi isn't bought out of his Anvil Affiliation, I don't think) or else just more dudes and arty. Remember that he's got considerable additional force elsewhere on the planet.

[Lance Blyth]

There is no Iron requirement, no. Any Anvil Lord worth his salt will have at least one Iron unit, even if it's just a guard to keep up appearances.


And this group of Lords-Pilot would not have to even be part of the Anvil but part of his household, no?

[cmoeller]

I don't know that there's a hard distinction between an Anvil Lord's Household troops and his Anvil Battalion, but, yes, his personal guardsmen would be attached to him directly.

-Chris

[NkEnNy]

Allthough I appreciate the nerdy-ness of this and I fully endorse the fun found in fictionous military units. Is ours the only gaming table that doesn't bother tracking the entire soldier (TO&E) rooster of our in-game affiliations? From noble Iron-wearing knight to toilet scrubbing private?

Why not just leave it vague, but open for stunts/descriptions. Need a personal bodyguard? Cricle check and/or puppy-eye the GM.

Need a cook, mechanic, vallet,<random> assistant, or messenger? Circle it. But WHY WOULD THE GM SAY NO? (unless this is/was an exceptional individual)

Keep it simple stupid. Let the story/players fill in the details to fit any concept. All while keeping the rules light and manageable.

[Sydney Freedberg]

Oh, I'm mainly doing this for the sheer nerdjoy. Since "Your Planet May Vary" is a cardinal rule of the Iron Empires setting and the Burning Empires game, from a practical player's point of view, all of this is here to be used as inspiration when needed and ignored when not.

The Circles rules are very wide open on what "appropriate equipment" a Circled character shows up with, and that's probably where this kind of thing is most useful in actual play -- but I'd be appalled if someone actually slowed down the game for more than 60 seconds to cite this thing.

[cmoeller]

Syd says it best. this is background. If you want to use it, great, if not, great. Play styles vary (as does interest in this sort of arcana). We never use this at our table, but I'd like to bring it to bear if I can. My tactical mind is irritated by 100% winging it, particularly when it comes to numbers and available systems in a firefight. We spend inordinate amounts of energy determining what our characters' Perception and Agility are and how they impact a firefight. Number and type of troops have a much greater impact on the way a firefight plays out, and I'd like to feel it's grounded in something more substantial than my whim as a GM.

But that's just me.

Chris

[Lance Blyth]

NkEnNy brings up a good point: why bother? Sydney is correct in that a lot of this is “nerdjoy” (I’m stealing that word for my lexicon!), but there is a potential impact that can add to the game play enjoyment of immersion into the plausible, semi-recognizable, internally cohesive, but very different world of the Iron Empires.

Say you do have an Anvil Lord with an Affiliation: Anvil 1D. What does this mean? Well, the rules do say:

“A 1D affiliation represents a small or poorly kept force comprised mostly of conscripts and landwehr with exponent 3 abilities. A 2D affiliation represents a competent or sizeable force of anvil trained soldiers and a smattering of Iron with exponent 4 abilities. A 3D affiliation represents a well-trained or elite force comprised of anvil trained, anvil elite and iron trained forces with exponent 5 abilities.” (BE, 249)

Yeah, but what does it mean you say? (As have others on this forum.) What is “small” or “sizeable”? BE says the GM decides, but, what does the GM have to go on? That is what we’re striving for here. A lot has gone on this thread (http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?p=55958#post55958), but I thought I’d give my take on it in this one.

Back to our 1D Anvil Lord. After discussions with the GM, it is determined his title is to an Anvil Battalion. Chris Moeller describes it as “The most common line unit. Primarily rifle platoons equipped with Anvil armor.” At the 1D level our Lord learns he has to maintain 2 Anvil Infantry Companies, an Armored Platoon, an Artillery Platoon, and an Iron Squad, all at exponent 3. (I’m working with Sydney and Chris on ways to increase or decrease size and exponents but that doesn’t come into play here.)

Yes, you say, but what does “2 Anvil Infantry Companies, an Armored Platoon, an Artillery Platoon, and an Iron Squad” mean to someone who doesn’t get off on such things? Glad you asked! Chris has kept things simple for Anvil (who should have the “Knuckle-dragger” trait): 3 squads to a platoon, 3 platoons to a company, 2-10 companies to a battalion.

So, what’s a squad? Well, it is the smallest combat unit which BE, p466, states consists at a minimum of “an officer/leader, a signals specialist, a medic, a squad support weapons specialist and a couple of assault weapons specialists,” or five men. Chris in canon and notes seems to give 10 men as a squad size. This gives us a squad with a sergeant, a signals specialist, a medic, a squad support weapons specialist and six assault weapons specialists.

In simplest game terms our Anvil Lord has access to 18 of these squads in Anvil armor with assault guns, each with its own Anvil Assault Sled and crew! He also has one squad with lasers and a fusor or PAc in Iron armor, again with an Assault sled.

Now he doesn’t have all these squads all the time standing by waiting for his orders, especially the Lords-Pilot in the iron squad who likely have other peacetime duties in the Lord’s household. Activating all of them will require circle and resource rolls and bring the attention of the Liege Lord and other Anvil Lords. However, he will be able to call on one Anvil Infantry squad, the duty squad, at any time, along with a Lieutenant as the Duty Officer.

For more color we can also say our Anvil Lord has 3 Grav Tanks (bigger, better armored, better sensors, longer-ranged fuzor than an Assault Sled) and 3 pieces of grav mobile artillery (an artillery scale weapon on a grav sled). If he decides to introduce these, he will need to tech burn them.

There ya go. From a 1D representing “a small force with exponent 3 abilities” we know have a unit of just over 200 combat soldiers with the necessary support, including a bunch of Assault Sleds, for his Firefights!

There is potentially more beyond this. A battalion will have a staff with an X-O, with whom the lord will have a relationship, and that there are two more Anvil Captains under his command. So, we could have a far more fleshed-out character. And that is the point of all the bother!

[NkEnNy]

Building a System
Lance Blyth, cmoeller, and Sydney:
Yes. It was something of a rethorical question. However to make this a functional system, I think you will need to approach this differently.

The key words are simplification and/or abstraction; this in order to more easily allow for units/TO&E that don't necessarily fit the galactic standard.

This means you should look at your building system. I call your attention to one of my early posts in this thread which revolves around the concept of spending 'size' (which is abstracted to 6 different steps) to gain proficiency, extra resources or capabilities. The point is to translate the "affilitation" dice into some sort of resource that can be expended to design an armed force.

If this abstract approach does not fit your goals, then I'd suggest trying to create a "Force Burner" Reminicent of the "Tech Burner" to help flesh out your military.

In example
To use your own example:

A 1D Military Affiliation on a modest tech index world.

Affiliation 1D: 1 Platoon worth of Exponent 3 troops (30-50 Men)
They have ballistic Armour and some sort of kinetic Assault Weapon. Given their low tech-index assume that they have Heavy Assault Guns (of somesort) to serve as squad weapons (say 3 to 5 units).

This same affiliation point; feeds, clothes, arms, and provides modest transportation(Combustion based Wheeled transport) to said forces plus basic medical and mechanical amneties.
Done

Personal Thoughts
Now mind you I imagined a more medieval standards (smaller) for armed forces in the Iron Empires than your more modern approach. I also assumed that different military "units" would be paid for by spending additional "affiliation" points.
Consider 'Faith Conquers' As Cotar Fomas Faith has access to a number of troops. I'd still imagine he paid individually (aff 2D or even 3D!) for the Grey Rats and an additional 2D affilitation for his other Church Troops .

It would however be very easy to re-tool the same basic "purchase" system to permit larger forces. As its more of a proof of concept than a finalized design.

Final Conclusion
When constructing a way to translate Affiliation (and remember not all affiliations have to be military!) into actually armed forces I think you should have an open mind. The Iron Empires, nay the universe, is a vast place. While there may once have been a human standard, the shining path that was the golden age of Terra has been lost; now there is only the lurking threat of Alien forces and mad nobles holding caches of ancient (relic) doom weapons.

You'll need a system that can present many different types of forces. Ranging from elite Iron teams, gibbering alien hordes, mobile tank batallions, to lumbering super weapons. And this isn't even touching the HAMMER side of the deal. Thousands of years of development, sometimes individual, will have produced very different ways of organizing your armies.

For something like this; I would have used a derivate of the "size" system I posted. Although a "Force Burner" could have worked just as well.

- Ken



Edit: Consider contemporary times. A mere 100 years ago troops and army sizes were very different from today. 200 years ago armies were organized in a totally different fashion to fight totally different wars. Platoons do not universally contain 3 squads, nor do all squads have 8(+1) members. Roman Legions were certainly quite different. And this is just on our old tired earth across the span of a mere 2000 years. Imagine a crumbling Empire spanning an entire galaxy!

This is why Size is abstract. 30-50 men for a Platoon[b](keyword) or 500-1000 men for a [b]Battalion(keyword) purposely left vague to account for anything from cultural implications, casualities, PERSONAL PREFERENCE, or just style. From the semi-heroic perspective of our STORYTELLING, a military Battalion performs equally well in a firefight wether with 586 or 983 men fluffwise.

[zabieru]

You can't have more than one Affiliation linked to the Hammer Lord or Anvil Lord traits. You only get one Affiliation which provides troops from the first X LPs at Exponent Y (unless you have Forged Lord, or both Hammer and Anvil Lord, and in those cases you have two such affiliations, one with Hammer and one with Anvil.)

Trevor Faith doesn't have Anvil Lord at all. He doesn't use Syd and Chris's rules, he just has an Affiliation with the Grey Rats and a relationship with their sergeant ("Shogun," right?). Then he's got an Affiliation with the Hotok Sodality and a relationship with Urci Fox. He doesn't have functional command of the rest of the Sodality outside Fox's company in game terms, even though he's at the top of the org chart. If he was Anvil Lord, he would.

With respect to the rest of your post, though...

NkEnNy, you have stated that Syd, Lance, and Chris's efforts here do not serve you. That's quite right. As much as I'm enjoying what they're doing, I doubt I'll ever use them in play either. If you want to produce a more generalized Force Burner, encompassing very unusual Anvil Battalions as well as non-battalion Anvil forces, Landwehr, etc, you can do that. If I know Syd, he'll be right in that thread with you. But the project in this thread is to produce a model for how to produce a typical Anvil Battalion, within one standard deviation of the mean. These tables don't do anything but that. Either that's useful to you or it's not.

[cmoeller]

The Iron Empires, nay the universe, is a vast place. While there may once have been a human standard, the shining path that was the golden age of Terra has been lost; now there is only the lurking threat of Alien forces and mad nobles holding caches of ancient (relic) doom weapons.

Amen brother! This should in no way be seen as a limit on anyone's imagination. I try to throw in a caveat in all of my posts something along the lines of: "of course there are a million worlds out there, each one with its own possilibites. If yours has a giant bioengineered squid grav tank, go for it."

Here's my bias. I'm a huge J.R.R. Tolkein fan, and my fiction benefits from his style of deep background thinking. It's why my stories take so damn long to write. I think of Lance's mechanical ideas as a "golden mean" that we can refer back to when creating our multitudinous variations.


-Chris

[Sydney Freedberg]

"of course there are a million worlds out there, each one with its own possilibites. If yours has a giant bioengineered squid grav tank, go for it."

I want one!

[luke]

Come on, Syd, where's that Biomechanical Battalions burner? Snap to it, man!

[Sydney Freedberg]

[steaming, molten brain matter pouring out of ears] Sure... I can do that... and burn up every kind of Kshatriyen and Shudren in a typical Vaylen battalion.... and assign the Bat Kraken the rank of First Lieutenant .... and.... [/dies]

[Thor Olavsrud]

[steaming, molten brain matter pouring out of ears] Sure... I can do that... and burn up every kind of Kshatriyen and Shudren in a typical Vaylen battalion.... and assign the Bat Kraken the rank of First Lieutenant .... and.... [/dies]

Fantastic! Have it on my desk by Monday.

[Sydney Freedberg]

[Molten, steaming brain matter drips onto Thor's desk]

[luke]

[Molten, steaming brain matter drips onto Thor's desk]
Dro, clean this up! The Sri Lankan's AWOL.

Chris, we can give Syd a new brain and just hull him, right? It's not optimal, but we need to keep up appearances with his family.

[cmoeller]

/laughs hysterically as the thread disintegrates like Bat-Kraken caught point blank in a fusor blast.

[NkEnNy]

Let it be written...
Zabieru, cmoeller, and fellow acolytes of the Bat Kraken agenda. I think you guys are misintepreting what I'm saying. Like noted I fully endorse and greatly enjoy indepth analysis of background material.

The observation I'm making is that, while such details are both interesting and valuable. For reasons already mentioned they make a poor basis for developing a universally applicable army creation game mechanic.

Any "Army Burner" wether based on the concept I outlined, or made to work with 'trait points' akin to the Device burner will find a well thought out (and realistic!) TO&E list an INVALUABLE piece of colour.


In other words
TO&E => Excellent Colour =/ Game Design
Army Burner needs => Support for all types of colour => Good Game Design


COLOUR + MECHANICS + BITS ==> teh w1n

[Lance Blyth]

COLOUR + MECHANICS + BITS ==> teh w1n

You've laid out the challenge very clearly--thanks for helping me keep my eye on the ball in all of this!