First session questions - Avoid/Jog Distance

[Blackberry]

We played a practice combat session yesterday to get a feel for the system, and we came up with a few questions.

Under Avoid, it says "Avoiders move away or to the side a number of paces equal to their dash [jog] rate."

Is that a "must" or a "may"? It imples "must". We had one character with a Jog rate of 1 (due to armor) and one with a 3. The one with a 3 saw this as a horrible detriment, because it meant that he would have to Jog just to get back into weapon range (and take the +2 Ob for it), whereas the slow guy could Avoid by only moving 1 pace away and still be in sword range or just need to walk closer at no penalty.

[eruditus]

This is a good question but the reality is a simpler. There is nothing really saying that whatever move you commit to you MUST cover any distance. Really it becomes a matter of, are you willing to take the numerical disadvatages to moving that fast. It may be circling, zig-zagging, jump and roll, etc. It just assumed that you'll endup somewhere in your desired path (somewhere includes the space you started in).

Secondly, note that its not really a disadvantage unless your opponent has a long reach weapon or is trying to get away. If you "have" to jog back to get in range then so does your opponent. Being slower you can sit back and prep for his actions like taking stance, setting for a charge or even pelting him with your loaded crossbow. With a jog rate of 1 your opponent is not likely to get to you any time soon and by that time you could have done the cheesey manuever that Luke did to me once: ready great strike.

[Kublai]

eruditus makes a good point, which your players will learn for themselves in short order. In this game, everyone becomes an individual where no two fighters (ehem, PC fighters, that is) should be the same. Each will develop his own "script" according to his advantages.

I believe the intent of the rules is that you must move your whole distance, but again, this is my interpretation. Some of that distance could be used by doing some zigging and zagging, but you really ought to be avoiding backwards, according to the letter of the law.

But, your players will learn to take advantage of this and use these opportunities - as I see them - to set Great Strikes, change Stance, ready a Conditional, throw a weapon, or Charge back in with a Tackle!

[Blackberry]

Well, that basically means that a fast individual *must* run 10+ feet away just to duck, whereas a slow person need only move 3 feet to duck.

[Kublai]

He's too fast!!! :shock: :)

But you're point is made, for sure. The only thing that can be said to counter is that an Avoid is far more than your character simply ducking. Consider a kung-fu or an Errol Flynn cinematic fight as the inspiration. An Avoid in these circumstances includes crazy acrobatics and back stepping and swirling and moving about and such.

[eruditus]

yes and no.

You look at it as "must" and the rules look at it as "can." Keep in mind that Avoids are not ducks and weaves - its a full bodily manuever that gets you completely clear of the danger (or as well as you are capable of). Trust me, with 1 Speed, when he is being run down with a superficial and a light he's gonna wish he could avoid for 3 :lol:

If the PC doesn't want to move then another manuever is more your cup of tea (like Block). Unlike Block Avoid has no foil yet the movement is part of the balance of the manuever.

[Blackberry]

yes and no.

You look at it as "must" and the rules look at it as "can."

But the rules say "Avoiders move away... a number of paces equal to their dash rate". That implies "[do] move", which is an imperative, which means you must do it. Lingustically, there is no "may" implied in there.


Keep in mind that Avoids are not ducks and weaves - its a full bodily manuever that gets you completely clear of the danger (or as well as you are capable of).

If that's a complete leap clear of the situation, then what do you do if you do want to just do the "duck and weave but generally stay there"? What's that maneuver?

[Kublai]

In that case, try using the "Avoid In" action. I think there might be a small obstacle penalty. Or, we can try to bang out a "Duck" action right here and now!

A duck would have no movement, or a walk at the most. However, it should not offer as much benefit as an Avoid.

[eruditus]

yes and no.

You look at it as "must" and the rules look at it as "can."

But the rules say "Avoiders move away... a number of paces equal to their dash rate". That implies "[do] move", which is an imperative, which means you must do it. Lingustically, there is no "may" implied in there.

Note, I didn't say "may" I said "can." The ability to avoid a greater distance is more important in the scope of playing than the limitation of having to move. Trust me, this bears out in play as you progress.



Keep in mind that Avoids are not ducks and weaves - its a full bodily manuever that gets you completely clear of the danger (or as well as you are capable of).

If that's a complete leap clear of the situation, then what do you do if you do want to just do the "duck and weave but generally stay there"? What's that maneuver?[/quote]

That's called "hope you updated your last will and testament." You don't just duck and weave and expect to not get hit. That is the influence of hong kong action heroes and old masters. If the player is looking for something like that may I suggest working on a manuever called "Dodge" that increases the attackers ob to hit you based on the root of your perception or speed.

We had developed a new Training Skill called Acrobatics. It allowed you to (among other things) Avoid while not "moving," although backflips and somersaults were assumed in its deployment. You just didn't have to go anywhere if you didn't want to.

there are times when a GM may even allow you to do a "Avoid In," ducking under a charger's grasp or behind the reach of that spear's business end.

[luke]

Well, that basically means that a fast individual *must* run 10+ feet away just to duck, whereas a slow person need only move 3 feet to duck.

Ok. First off, clear your mind of hollywood. An Avoid is NOT a duck. An Avoid maneuver is a withdraw/retreat/get the hell out of the way.

I think the final duel in Rob Roy illustrates nicely the space necessary for just two swordsman to go at it.

However, if I had to rewrite the Avoid paragraph I would say something like this: The defender must take a retreating step in the direction opposite the attack, and he may retreat a distance equal to a his jog rate if he so desires.

hope that helps,
-Luke

[luke]

If that's a complete leap clear of the situation, then what do you do if you do want to just do the "duck and weave but generally stay there"? What's that maneuver?

Pete is right, use the Avoid In mechanics -- +1 Ob to the Avoid.

The Avoid In is just an extrapolation of the BW rules. If ever a character wishes to perform in such a way that makes their stated intent harder --- to do something that gives them a momentary disadvantage -- simply bump up the obstacle by one.

-L

[Blackberry]

This clarifies things very much. Might I suggest the slightly more specific wording for a future edition?