Where are the ninjas?

[BWA]

I realize that when designing Blossoms, the choice was clearly made to set the game in the Heian era, and avoid some of the more obvious genre archetypes, like ninja and samurai. But why?

I'm not complaining, and interesting things can always come from exploring less-beaten paths. But since role-playing is about bringing the awesome, why *not* a book about the beloved and always-entertaining samurai, katanas, ninja and demon-hunters?

[luke]

I pinged Rich to answer this one for us.

What does "bringing the awesome" mean to you?

[BWA]

What does "bringing the awesome" mean to you?

Okay, you got me. I did not mean to suggest that Blossoms fails to bring the awesome. (To answer the question directly would take a longer post than I suspect people have the interest in reading).

But, obviously, there is a certain set of archetypes that people think of when they think of fantasy Japanese role-playing, and Blossoms sort of goes around those archetypes.

Burning Wheel itself is a great game, but it is definitely based on the classic archetypes of Western European fantasy gaming. So why, when turning your eyes eastward, did you decide to traffic in more historical ideas, rather than the more obvious nerd-pop-culture references?

Again, not complaining, just asking. Although who doesn't love a ninja?

[luke]

The short answer: since publishing BW we have dedicated ourselves to demonstrating a different view of fantasy roleplaying. We try to challenge our players. BW's implied setting is there to make the transition into the game easier for new players. Elves are easy to grok and it's easy to compare our elves to other games' elves. But everything since then -- Under a Serpent Sun, Jihad, Burning Empires and Blossoms -- has been a concerted effort to explore different ideas and to move away from cliches.

-L

[EarthenForge]

Although who doesn't love a ninja?

Um...pirates! I thought this was common internets knowledge...

;)

[Thor Olavsrud]

Luke pretty much nailed it.

Personally, I like to think we also did a pretty good job of doing something different with elves, dwarves and orcs. Those lifepaths embrace the source material in a way that I haven't really seen in other games.

You can really feel it when you play those characters too. Elves have a real depth to their immortality if you really play their common traits and Grief to the hilt.

Dwarves are not just stolid and bound by oath and law, they cling to oath and law desperately, as that is all that stands between the dwarves and the chaos of their Greed.

And orcs? Well, I think anyone that plays BW's orcs for any length of time will have a hard time untangling their horror of them from their pity for them.

Yes, they look pretty familiar on the surface, but I think they're pretty unique in play.

And, of course, the lifepaths of man are more or less straight out of the Hundred Years War, with the addition of Faith and Sorcery.

Anyway, every role-playing game set in historical or fantasy Japan has focused on samurai and ninja. It's well covered! We decided to mine a fascinating era of Japan that isn't quite so well known.

Besides, there are still samurai! They're just from an earlier period than you're familiar with. They aren't quite the top of the food chain yet, and they still put more emphasis on skill with a bow than on skill with a sword. But they're still badass!

And as for ninja? Well, the legends of ninja seem to be based on mythical Yamabushi shugenja trained by Tengu. All you have to do to get a ninja is take the Yamabushi lifepath in combination with the Hagure setting and/or the Farms and Villages setting. Buy and affiliation with your clan, and you're good.

As for demon hunters, that's covered too. Demon hunters of the more spiritual persuasion will come from the Buddhist Monastery setting, like the Temple Priest, or the Jinju setting, like the Shrine Mother. They've got Joubutsu for a reason. The Shrine Mother, with her Demon-wise skill and the Kami-no-Michi she picked up as a Miko, is especially potent in this regard. In a pinch, though, the Augur from the Farms and Villages, or the Yamabushi or Witch from the Hagure will do. They all have Joubutsu too.

For demon hunters of a more martial persuasion, you'll want the bushi of the Minamoto Clan. Hunting dangerous demons and ghosts (along with rebels and bandits) is what they do. Check their Mountain Warrior trait. They have to be armed with a Mino Tachi, Named Tachi, Gokahu-Yumi or Azusa-Yumi though.

[Fourth Horseman]

Why didn't we do ninjas he (or she) asks? Ditto on Luke & Thor but let me add some more. The merits of a particular setting are all entirely subjective--different strokes for different folks. But you see, when I handed the original manuscript over to Luke and continued to work on it with him TBAF--from my standpoint--was meant to fulfill one important objective, to keep ME entertained.

I am not even remotely entertained by ninjas. In pop culture--Sengoku Jidai, super cutting katanas, and the ever poweful ninja have been done to death.

"You said your damn ninja would take care of robocop" was pretty much the end of the line for me. And the dead horse had been beaten to a pulp when the cruiser wrestled with ninjas in the last white samurai.

Hell, IMHO the only thing that can rescue ninjas from the pit of boring is camp:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNWwsXQtJl8

Cheers

R

[BWA]

Why didn't we do ninjas he (or she) asks? Ditto on Luke & Thor but let me add some more. The merits of a particular setting are all entirely subjective--different strokes for different folks. But you see, when I handed the original manuscript over to Luke and continued to work on it with him TBAF--from my standpoint--was meant to fulfill one important objective, to keep ME entertained.

I am not even remotely entertained by ninjas. In pop culture--Sengoku Jidai, super cutting katanas, and the ever poweful ninja have been done to death.


Thanks for the responses. One of the best things about BW is the ability to ask a question like this directly of the game designers.

That said, some of the above responses didn't quite answer my question. I know I *can* make a samurai or ninja type character with the system, but my question was why these archetypes were not built into the game. But I think the response quoted above is a good answer. "We didn't do ninja and samurai because we were more interested in this other stuff" is fine by me.

I also agree with the sentiment of "ninjas!" becoming something of a punchline. I think there's a bit in Spirit of the Century about "Sending in Ninjas" as an updated version of "When in doubt, have a man burst through the door with a gun in his hand."

[Fourth Horseman]

BTW, while we definitely took a pass on designing unique ninja lifepaths into the game, samurai are definitely represented as bushi and in the provincial warrior setting. We simply used the less well known term for samurai to (a) distinguish ourselves from other games and (b) impress the point we are talking about a distinct period for the warrior caste. Buke, samurai, and bushi are almost interchangeable terms.

Although it wasn't our outright intention, I also think expunging the term samurai from the written text of the game has also served to help our players leave their preconcieved stereoptypes about samurai behind and experiment with the template we are laying out for them.

We really tried to bring out the awesome in samurai with Honor and Shame. To me the most compelling thing about the way of the warrior isn't so much the bling, i.e. the swords/bows and top knots--its the tension between living up to an idealized creed of service, the realities of gaining and keeping power in a cruel world, and the demands of a religion that commands giving up worldly attachments. The whole thing has cognitive dissonance written all over it, and that's the stuff of compelling story and play. Feats of valor were meant to give color to the highly individualistic kind of combat practiced by the bushi of that period. Finally, the myriad of new traits we created for the provincial warriors was meant to capture the flavor of playing a japanese warrior ...

[Max-Steel]

I though the ninja wasn't included to bring some "realistic" flavour in the game (some specialist doubt about the mere existence of that über-assassins group).

[Thor Olavsrud]

I though the ninja wasn't included to bring some "realistic" flavour in the game (some specialist doubt about the mere existence of that über-assassins group).

Even if they did exist, the stories about them date to a period long after the one covered in Blossoms.

[Max-Steel]

True. No katana no ninja :D

[skandall]

The short answer: since publishing BW we have dedicated ourselves to demonstrating a different view of fantasy roleplaying. We try to challenge our players. BW's implied setting is there to make the transition into the game easier for new players. Elves are easy to grok and it's easy to compare our elves to other games' elves. But everything since then -- Under a Serpent Sun, Jihad, Burning Empires and Blossoms -- has been a concerted effort to explore different ideas and to move away from cliches.

-L

Unfortunately, many gamers have taken your "concerted effort to explore different ideas and to move away from cliches" as a way of saying that they're playing their games wrong. These gamers view BW and BE as being written with a heavy dose of arrogance and superiority. That Blossoms focuses on a period of Japanese history that is completely different from anything else is both in line with your goals and in line with these certain players impressions serving only to reaffirm their belief that the Burning books think they're better than every other RPG out there. Sadly, this sort of reaction has come up on more occasions than I would have ever guessed almost to the point of making it akin to bringing up religion in mixed company. This prejudice can be an insurmountable hurdle on the quest of starting a group of players. Frankly, from my conversations with such people, I get the impression that meeting Luke only made things worse. I also get the impression that they're not the sort of people I would want to game with. Maybe it isn't that the books appear to have been written with a superiority complex, but rather, in that persons case, the reader is just inferior? I mean, what could be more frustrating to a rules lawyer player than a game with rules that he can't manage to comprehend?

Having experienced the so called Wrath of Crane (it's something like a mouse trap; there's this loud and sudden snap and then silence) for daring to present him with house rules and modifications to BW/BE, I can say that I do appreciate his mantra of "just play it as written." I'm sure that it's a bit frustrating to share the pride and joy you've produced through a great deal of effort, time, and likely personal sacrifice only to have the masses for whom you wrote this tome of gaming greatness immediately start making suggestions on how to change it, improve it, or adapt it to some other setting. Then again, how could one possibly expect anything else from a group of people whose hobby is based on being creative and molding worlds to fit their story?

Oh well, as far as I'm concerned BW and BE have some great stuff in them. They do challenge players to be more creative and more active with their characters and while I agree that is a good thing, it also makes it more challenging to find people who are interested in taking such an active role when they're accustomed to the generally more passive play that most RPG's provide.

Finally, I couldn't be less interested in the Blossom's book. Call me when the Magic Burner, something for Under a Serpent Sun, or a Cyberpunk setting is due out. If you want to challenge players in a fantasy setting, look no further than Agone.

Best Regards,
Craig

[khelek]

There are ninjas in the Blossoms Book, you just can't see them.

I for one was very happy when I read through Blossoms the first time and did not find any "ninjas," especially when its been a year and I am still discovering new traits and skills. While there is something sometimes fun about playing a cliche, I find the offerings in Blossoms to make exactly the kind of games that I think BW does best... court/social games punctuated by small but savage acts of violence.

Also:
When the Ninja show up in The Last Samuri, I leave the room.

Every game I have played with a Ninja PC has been the same. They do their own things on the side (being the awesome) and yet have no real attachment to what is going on.

Plus Luke already wrote Ninjas into his other game: Burning Empires... check out the Vurm Hunter and required lifepaths!

[Mel White]

There are ninjas in the Blossoms Book, you just can't see them.

Hah!

[Bez]

I for one applaud the decision of the game designers to stick by their ideals and make a game how THEY want it to be. (Oh God! I sound like a Daily Mail reader.)

The point is, they didn't aim to create a game that would sell lots of copies to the munchkins, but deliberately steered clear of the whole ninja/katana/musket-armed-samurai genre (which has been done to death) and set Blossoms in an era that they liked.

I personally lean to the ninja side of the whole ninja vs pirate argument, but the vast majority of ninja fans are geeky kids whose vision of the honourable ninja is vastly distorted from the truth. Any game that excludes these people is great in my book. Go and watch American Ninja or something.

("Freak out and wail on their guitars" indeed. Tut tut.)

[luke]

WTF? Are you posting to the right thread?

[xenomouse]

Did those guys that complain ever stop to think they might be pretentious??

WTF? Are you posting to the right thread?

Apparently, someone has very strong feelings about ninjas. Pro or con, I cannot tell.

[khelek]

oh don't mind quixoteles, he's (she's?) just aurging with the ninjas that the rest of us can't see (or hear, of course! they are very very quiet). Those ninjas are quite pretentious I can tell you.

Also, I want some Hater-ade! sounds good.

[quixoteles]

I posted a message before which was on the wrong thread entirely. So I am not arguing with vile ninjas that are invisible. The post was about that interview I heard which is on a tottaly different thread, but the text boxes got mixed up because I typed three or four messages at once this afternoon when I was pressed for time. I can hear all of the boo's right now, really really, this is not my particular type of crazy. I promise. how do you move these things again?

[Trithemius]

If tengu are not providing sufficient anti-establishment mischief and unconventional swordplay for anyone's needs then something is seriously wrong.

[luke]

please let this thread die! The ninja are clearly up to something! Only you can stop forest fires.

[adelwulf]

True. No katana no ninja :D
the oral history of what we have come to know as Ninja, whether ancient or modern (whatever you want to make of them is your own matter) tells that those that clandestinely practiced self defense in villages or as rebels against oppression in the mountains, first used whatever was at hand. Farm implements, common objects and their own bodies were the first weapons. It would still be possible in a The Blossoms Are Falling campaign to explore the beginnings of such groups that are reputed to have eventually become Ninja schools/clans.

The absence of katana would have no effect. It was the weapon of the Samurai, not Ninja, anyway :)

[Saphim]

I think max was making a joke. You might want to check your irony detector, it seems to be inoperational. happens from time to time with the newer models :P

[zabieru]

the oral history of what we have come to know as Ninja, whether ancient or modern (whatever you want to make of them is your own matter) tells that those that clandestinely practiced self defense in villages or as rebels against oppression in the mountains, first used whatever was at hand. Farm implements, common objects and their own bodies were the first weapons. It would still be possible in a The Blossoms Are Falling campaign to explore the beginnings of such groups that are reputed to have eventually become Ninja schools/clans.


Sure. Use the Family and Clan burner and agricultural lifepaths. Don't use yamabushi, it's more interesting without them.