Player Skill vs. Character Skill

[Leonides]

Hey guys,

I've run Burning Wheel before, however the current group has two problems with the scripting system that I am having difficulty answering:

1) They complain that scripting focuses too much on the skill of the player and not the character. That is, a veteran character playing a street rat can easily beat a newbie playing a veteran soldier.

2) They feel that people in combat make decisions spontaneously. They've declared the scripting mechanic "unrealistic" for a fight where decisions are made from a moment-to-moment basis.

Any easy way to shut my -- ahem -- beloved players up?

Oh, and... Have there been any rumblings of a 3rd Edition of BW?

Thanks much!

[Z-Dog]

1. Yes. They are right. People who know how to play the game will play it better. That's true of any game. Tell them to step up and learn the system or shut up! ;)

2. Fight doesn't seem spontaneous? When two guys attack each other simultaneously? I'm scratching my head over why they don't think it's spontaneous. Please explain!

[Leonides]

1. Well, Ken, I can understand their point a little. After all, it is a role-playing game, yes? Doesn't that mean a PLAYER should be able to play a CHARACTER who is more skilled than he is?

2. They mean that -- in the midst of a fight -- nobody actually scripts what they're gonna do 3 moves in advance.


P.S. Where in SoCal are you at? I'm in L.A. :)

[Esteban]

1. The point is that the player is the one who is playing the game, not the character. Hence it makes sense for the player to win the game based on his mastery of the mechanics.

The character is important, much like a chess piece is important in chess, but it's the player who makes the moves that win the game. There is no cruise control or autopilot in BW.

2. Considering that each action is a heartbeat, a character waiting to react to a situation is going to be slower. He'll be penalized by his reaction time. This is mimicked by the loss of an action every time you change an action. If they want to be reactive, they can keep striking out actions.

The gist of it is that assessing and reacting take time. A set group of moves is quicker and therefore more efficient than the set of actions chosen on the fly. However, the custom actions might be more effective given the situation.

It makes for an interesting consideration tactically.

[Kintara]

Hey guys,

I've run Burning Wheel before, however the current group has two problems with the scripting system that I am having difficulty answering:

1) They complain that scripting focusing too much on the skill of the player and not the character. That is, a veteran character playing a street rat can easily beat a newbie playing a veteran soldier.

2) They feel that people in combat make decisions spontaneously. They've declared the scripting mechanic "unrealistic" for a fight where decisions are made from a moment-to-moment basis.

Any easy way to shut my -- ahem -- beloved players up?

Oh, and... Have there been any rumblings of a 3rd Edition of BW?

Thanks much!

1) Player skill is involved, but chance also plays a huge part once you get the basics. How much player skill is too much is a matter of opinion, but practically every fun game has an element of skill to it. What were the circumstances under which they came to believe this?

2) This is an interesting aspect of the system, really. Firstly, the thing to keep in mind is that the individual actions in a fight are very small. Look at how many actions it takes to draw and shoot an arrow. So imagine a Speed 4 person doing a Strike-Strike|Strike|Strike. That's the character making the decision to literally strike as often as he can. You can't even do that with a "slow" weapon, and swords are slow, so that's as fast as a Speed 4 person can throw punches effectively.

So maybe explaining it like this will help: there is lag between a decision to act and the act itself, and there's a lag between your perceptions and reality. Your brain has to process sensory information, come up with orders for your body, and then try to execute them. But reality doesn't wait for your perceptions to remain accurate, let alone give you time to consider each individual strike you make carefully.

Remember that you can change your script, but it costs you an action. This is the price of second-guessing yourself in the middle of combat. You have to sit there like a goober while you hesitate and re-process instead of just pushing along.

[stormsweeper]

1) Any system can be gamed. I used to game D&D for all it was worth.

2) Scripting creates tension, chaos, and uncertainty. Strategically planning each action in initiative order tends to do exactly the opposite.

[Kintara]

1) Any system can be gamed. I used to game D&D for all it was worth.

2) Scripting creates tension, chaos, and uncertainty. Strategically planning each action in initiative order tends to do exactly the opposite.

And that's how you say it well.

[stormsweeper]

And that's how you say it well.

Or tersely, at least. :D

[Leonides]

Good stuff! Thanks, guys. I think that will help when explaining it to them. They're just used to the 'The bad guy swings at you, WHAT DO YOU DO?' style of play. But I'll break them in. :)

[Kintara]

Now, they may very well be surprised how chaotic and uncertain combat can really be. One thing that could be happening is that they are confusing bad (or good) luck with player skill.

[pseudoidiot]

There's some pretty good discussion here (http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5433) about Fight!, as far a real world analog. An important point to take note of is that most trained fighters (and I'm no expert here, so someone can probably word it better than me), usually learn sets of moves (or combos or katas, if you will); I imagine it helps for training muscles. So, really, planning a few moves in advance isn't as far stretched as first seems apparent to most people.

[luke]

Hey guys,

I've run Burning Wheel before, however the current group has two problems with the scripting system that I am having difficulty answering:


Hi Leo,

These are two very common "complaints" from groups resistant to learning Burning Wheel. They're not very strong arguments. As folks pointed out, all games require a degree of player mastery and the BW scripting system is just as unrealistic as every other combat resolution system out there, only ours reinforces chaos, fear and tactical thinking.

Anyway, every time someone asks these questions, it turns out something else is going on with his group instead. These complaints are just defensive reactions. If you can, I'd start your next session with a bit of a discussion. Ask them what's really going on.

And if you want to talk more about that process (and what to expect), feel free to start a thread about this in The Fevered Circle. We'll be happy to help.

Thanks!
-Luke

[Paul B]

Yeah, I think there's a very easy disconnect to make with Fight! scripting. You script stuff out, and those decisions feel important, but then it plays out and those decisions feel...arbitrary and scary, I think. So you can get this weird back-and-forth sense inside your head -- a period of "important" decision-making that feels like you're imposing a lot of "control", which is separated by lots of minutes, and then a lack of "control" afterwards.

If there were a way to re-engineer Fight! around fast card play it'd highlight the chaos-and-tension quality of the system while downplaying the every-decision-matters effect.

I just learned Wings of War, a great little WWI fighter-plane combat game, and guess what? You play out three cards at a time and make the best of it each phase. Ditto RoboRally. There must be others.

It might even be pretty easy to build such a system. In addition to the actual maneuvers, it'd be nice to somehow physically represent stance and position as well. Hm.

p.

[Esteban]

Well Paul I think you've hit it right on the head: "while downplaying the every-decision-matters effect" and the mention of card mechanics.

Initial scripting should be no different than picking three cards from a deck. The decision-making really doesn't matter. What matters is you picked three cards.

Can it affect you later? Sure. But it shouldn't be perceived as all that important. If anything, perhaps enforcing a time constraint, to get people to just write out what comes to mind instead of trying to plot some complex strategy in three little actions, might help with this.

[luke]

Ah, the card thing again.

1) It doesn't address the problem of player skill vs character skill.

2) We've tried it. It's awful. It's messy and has incredibly bad handling time. Tried it more than once!

[Esteban]

Just for clarification I didn't mean go with the card thing, but rather approach script writing more fluidly, and not get hung up trying to write up the script to end all scripts. Just make it more casual, like you would picking cards.

In other words don't try to win the fight before it's even started. No battle plan survives contact with the enemy, blah blah blah. :)

[stormsweeper]

For what it's worth, scripted combat isn't even a new in BW thing. I have a fourteen year old RPG on my shelf that has scripted combat (Castle Falkenstein).

[Leonides]

Thanks, Luke. I'll definitely do that.


Yeah, I think there's a very easy disconnect to make with Fight! scripting. You script stuff out, and those decisions feel important, but then it plays out and those decisions feel...arbitrary and scary, I think. So you can get this weird back-and-forth sense inside your head -- a period of "important" decision-making that feels like you're imposing a lot of "control", which is separated by lots of minutes, and then a lack of "control" afterwards.

Interesting. As soon as you wrote that, Paul, I felt like this was true, and probably what my players are feeling.

That said, I think this is actually a GOOD thing. I can impress upon them that in a traditional RPG there are too many 'knowns.' You KNOW how many HP that orc has, you know how much damage he does, you know how your character is going to react. Instead, BW attempts to emulate the pure chaos, adrenaline, and -- yes -- even fear of being in the middle of a vicious melee that could steal away your life at any second.

Make sense?

[luke]

That's what the design intent is!

[eruditus]

Ah, the card thing again.

1) It doesn't address the problem of player skill vs character skill.

2) We've tried it. It's awful. It's messy and has incredibly bad handling time. Tried it more than once!


And more than one person independantly. I developed a set too on my own and found the same thing. You have so many great choices in BW that sorting through all the cards becomes a real hassle. Scripting sheets ROCK!

[Z-Dog]

eruditus and all:

you mean writing down the info for the scripted action on a card and then just laying the cards alongside each other (not pulling random cards, just picking the ones you want)?

too many cards on the table?

[Piikki]

I think it is wrong for playrs script as well as they can. This is a roleplaying game and they should script actions that their characters would do. So streetrat player should scribe pretty bad scripts if he wants to roleplay, those people dont think clever feint mechanics and so on, they want to stab and run.

[Z-Dog]

Piikii, I think that's up to the player to decide.

[Paul B]

That said, I think this is actually a GOOD thing. I can impress upon them that in a traditional RPG there are too many 'knowns.' You KNOW how many HP that orc has, you know how much damage he does, you know how your character is going to react. Instead, BW attempts to emulate the pure chaos, adrenaline, and -- yes -- even fear of being in the middle of a vicious melee that could steal away your life at any second.

Make sense?

Makes perfect sense. I agree entirely, and offer only that a sense of chaos, adrenaline and fear of losing one's life is probably not a highly valued experience among gamers (despite protestations to the contrary and the constant beating of the "I want to feel immersed!" drum).

p.

[Z-Dog]

Makes perfect sense. I agree entirely, and offer only that a sense of chaos, adrenaline and fear of losing one's life is probably not a highly valued experience among gamers (despite protestations to the contrary and the constant beating of the "I want to feel immersed!" drum).

p.

LOL! True, Paul, too true.

Watch everyone's palms get sweaty when you pull out the scripting sheets.

[Dwight]

They've declared the scripting mechanic "unrealistic" for a fight where decisions are made from a moment-to-moment basis.
I reccomend you procure a waster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waster) and wail upon the head and shoulders of anyone that uses the word "unrealistic" in reference to a complaint about an RPG, any RPG. :D

[Z-Dog]

I reccomend you procure a waster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waster) and wail upon the head and shoulders of anyone that uses the word "unrealistic" in reference to a complaint about an RPG, any RPG. :D

LOL good point. Even I don't know what the hell I'm arguing for when I complain something's not realistic in an RPG. Arguing for what I want? :)

[eruditus]

eruditus and all:

you mean writing down the info for the scripted action on a card and then just laying the cards alongside each other (not pulling random cards, just picking the ones you want)?

too many cards on the table?


Yeah, it ends up being an issue managing what cards you are handling. You have some 20 choices between positioning, physical actions, point black bow fire, and straight up combat moves. It turned out that it just wasn't as fun as marking a laminated script sheet with grease pencil and revealing it.

I played with my set for about 6 months and scripting sheets were just handier.

- Don

[Thanuir]

I think it is wrong for playrs script as well as they can. This is a roleplaying game and they should script actions that their characters would do. So streetrat player should scribe pretty bad scripts if he wants to roleplay, those people dont think clever feint mechanics and so on, they want to stab and run.This is the way I can actually use fight (and DoW and probably R&C too). Thinking tactically is something I don't want to focus too much on, so instead I think about the character's personality.

I did try the tactics, but ended up me scripting worse and not having fun.

This might work for character-focused people, or people who identify as immersive.

[Angaros]

I've never become comfortable with the scripting system and I think it's because I don't get the tactics part. If I script X, I (and this is about me, not a property of the system) can't predict where this will lead to. Which makes me feel pretty dim witted. :) Even after playing BW for a couple of years I still don't know how to play "smart" or "stupid" with the scripts.

[Jaroslav]

Hmm. It seems to me, that, unless there's a conflict with your BITs, you should script your combat to the best of your ability. If your character is well-crafted, then the various stats should be enough to distinguish a knight from a streetrat. Furthermore, the streetrat might even have some "dirty" fighting tactics that the knight wouldn't use, or even expect from an opponent, so the fight outcome isn't necessarily a foregone conclusion just based on the characters' backgrounds.

There are, I think, other times in the game where you might make your character do things that you wouldn't, but, it seems that, in Fight!, there is enough information on your character sheet to circumscribe your actions that you might as well do your best within that circumscription. I'd be interested to know if more experienced BW players than I feel otherwise.

[luke]

I have high player skill in this game. I rarely engage all of that skill. More often, it's much more fun for me to play the conflict as the character would, not as I would.

[Paul B]

I have high player skill in this game. I rarely engage all of that skill. More often, it's much more fun for me to play the conflict as the character would, not as I would.

Do you have any idea how much skill it takes to play "unskilled"?

There's a big difference between "this untrained street thug will probably go aggressive and close to lock, and not bother with blocking or avoiding" and "well...I dunno...how about counterstrike, strike and...oh! I'd better avoid in there somewhere as well."

p.