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View Full Version : Yes. It's another thread on writing Beliefs...



John Anderson
02-14-2008, 11:04 AM
Hi all,
Beliefs rock. You know it, I know it. However, sometimes I just cannot seem to convey exactly how to write them across to my players. Some of them seem to grasp what we are looking for in a great belief straight away, while others look at me blankly, start dribbling and gently cry before curling up into the foetal position. I can actually see the grey matter oozing from their ears sometimes. These are the occasions when my writing-beliefs-wise dries up and player frustration settles in for the duration. I have read and re-read the incredibly helpful Beliefs workshops from the wiki and the numerous threads here on the forum, and sometimes it just seems to be going over the same ground again and again. This is not a criticism of the excellent work which has gone before, rather this is my attempt to clarify beliefs so that (in my mind at least) I can have the easiest, most straightforward way of explaining them so that my players get that light bulb a-flickering over their heads sooner rather than later.

Recently I listened to episode 24 of Canon Puncture, in which Luke was interviewed about Burning Wheel (and its iterations) and he expounded on Beliefs amongst many other things. I found the interview very informative and it cleared a lot up in my head about how to approach beliefs and how to explain them to my players. I thoroughly recommend you listen to it and the link is here. (http://canonpuncture.blogspot.com/2007/11/cp-24-luke-crain.html) Luke’s interview starts at 16:15 and he discusses Beliefs until about 25.15.

The upshot of the interview, and please leap in if I am misrepresenting what you are saying Luke, is that Beliefs are player priorities for their character and represent how and when the player wishes to be rewarded (via Artha) based on both player-defined characterisations and goals of his character in play. Such priorities provide flags to the GM and other players about what is important to that player about his character and serve as inspiration for the GM (and also to an extent other players) to create adversity and conflict based on what the player is interested in. This conflict provides the player with the ammunition by which he can play against and be rewarded with Artha.

Luke (in the interview) identifies two separate yet inter-related Belief forms that are intrinsically tied to this Artha reward mechanic. The first is open-ended and represents the player’s priority for reward that is based on a course of action or priority that cannot be achieved or completed; the “I want to be the best…X” Belief. The second type of player priority is based on an achievable course of action or goal and represents the player asking for rewards based on completing an objective, or quest. This is best characterised as the “I will have revenge on…Y” Belief. Both Beliefs are equally valid and represent the player saying, “…this is what is important to me as player and this is how I want my character to be rewarded if I play my character in such a manner”.

While the Artha mechanic actively rewards both types of Belief, it is with slightly differing emphases based on the two differing types of Beliefs being played out. The first, or open-ended Belief, (“I want to be the best…X”) results in an Artha reward feedback based on the player constantly moving his character towards an unachievable goal or priority. In effect, the rewards come for playing a character in a certain manner or way rather than for actually achieving anything concrete. Playing a character based on this open-ended Belief can also result in the transformation of that Belief into a Call-On trait which hard-wires such idiomatic play directly into the game.

If the first type of Belief is unachievable and provides constant Artha and the opportunity of its transformation into a trait based on how a character is played, the second form “I will have revenge on…Y” actively states that the player wishes to be rewarded for achieving a Belief. In effect, the player is rewarded with fate points as he actively moves towards his goal and sets up the final climactic conflict as well as with a persona point for reaching and overcoming that player-defined adversity. The reward then is actively set up to be at a distant yet achievable point in the future with a larger payoff at its conclusion rather than for complicating your character’s life right now. Of course, such idiomatic play on route to the climax may also result in the transformation of the Belief into a trait, but the conscious decision is that any such transformation will not occur until after the Belief has been realised.

Therefore, I think from now on I will be explaining Beliefs in terms of what flags the player sees as important for his character and in terms of how he wishes to be rewarded for playing them. Ideally of course, you’ll want players with a mixture of both open-ended and resolvable Beliefs to provide both a manner of playing the character as well as goals for him to achieve. The player should expect constant Artha rewards for how he plays a character as well as the possibility of a trait which hard-wires such idiomatic play into the game. He should also expect constant rewards for moving towards the goal he has defined and uber Artha for achieving it.

John

Z-Dog
02-14-2008, 11:12 AM
great way of putting it, John

I'll keep that in mind the next time I talk beliefs

achievable beliefs can be divided up into short, medium, and long term beliefs

xenomouse
02-14-2008, 11:17 AM
Where's the feed for the podcast?

Mel White
02-14-2008, 11:18 AM
John,
A nice summary; very useful. I'll be borrowing some of your language tonight in a Burning Empires world- and character-burning session!
Mel

John Anderson
02-14-2008, 11:23 AM
Where's the feed for the podcast?

About half way down the page I linked to in my post. It's also...
http://media.libsyn.com/media/canonpuncture/CP24_Luke_Crane.mp3
John

John Anderson
02-14-2008, 11:24 AM
Cheers guys,
I just found getting across the concept of what a good Belief was frustrating sometimes and that podcast really, really helped.
John

Wrathbone
02-14-2008, 11:34 AM
Interesting post, Salar. The way that I handle this (correctly or not) is by incorporating the general and the specific within one belief. I've only posted one character on this forum. His beliefs are:

Beliefs:
- I am exposed & alone among these barbarians – I must fatten my purse & strengthen my swordarm.
- Civil war is imminent in Kaldor – Anyse should be looked after so that no harm befalls her.
- These Mannish lasses are a far cry from the maidens of the Silver Wood….still, I can find relief from my grief in their beds (as always, use discretion!).

So, I take a general worldview and then tag it with a specific action (or actions) that will reinforce this worldview. This way, the player can determine how long he/she wants to play the belief.

For example, taking the first belief, "I am exposed & alone among these barbarians – I must fatten my purse & strengthen my swordarm," let's say that within play the character bumps up his sword and bow to B5 exponents as well as winning a large cache of silver from a troll hoard. He is now comfortable financially and is not to be trifled with physically. He feels more secure.

I'd say he has 2 choices now. He can say the general belief has been satisfied and come up with a new belief entirely (with a new specific tag as well) or he can keep the general belief but up the ante on the specific follower. Example:

New Belief:
- I have been an exile too long & yearn for my homeland - I will approach the elven wanderer Fingrim & enlist his aid.
Old belief (but changed):
- I am exposed & alone among these barbarians – I will get a license from the Countess and build a keep overlooking the Blue River.

Note that you don't just have to reward artha for the specific goal, anything that comes into play regarding the general belief is fair game, it's just that the specific goal is there if your beliefs are getting too broad.

Anyway, this is how I do it. I'd be interested to hear if I'm doing this wrong (missing something from the rules).

xenomouse
02-14-2008, 11:35 AM
About half way down the page I linked to in my post. It's also...
http://media.libsyn.com/media/canonpuncture/CP24_Luke_Crane.mp3
John
I'm sorry. I meant the rss feed, like the one for Virtual Play:
http://virtualplay.podbus.com/?feed=rss2

It allows other to access your podcast from a podcast reader.

John Anderson
02-14-2008, 11:45 AM
I'm sorry. I meant the rss feed, like the one for Virtual Play:
http://virtualplay.podbus.com/?feed=rss2

It allows other to access your podcast from a podcast reader.

Oh, sorry. I have no idea whatsoever. I let itunes do all that behind the scenes mallarcky. :) Someone else here may be able to help though.
John

John Anderson
02-14-2008, 11:59 AM
Hi Wrathbone,
I'm certainly not going down the route of saying whether your Beliefs are right or wrong. That way lies madness :). What I would say is that in quickly reading those first Beliefs, they do appear to fall within the 'open-ended' scope of Beliefs and provide flags as to how the character will be played rather than provide concrete resolvable conflicts. The second set of Beliefs however look like achievable Beliefs with distinct end-points and suggest a course of action that the player will follow to achieve them. But that's just my take on things, and to be honest as long as the player (you, I take it?) can hit them often and hard and get Artha for doing so then I presume they're crack on.
John

Wrathbone
02-14-2008, 12:12 PM
You're right that they're a little open-ended. That's because when I burned this guy I didn't have a set of campaign goals in place and & I kind of prefer a free-flowing sort of campaign.

But let's say they were specific (the second half). What do you think of the overall plan of having a general & specific belief rolled into one, with a decision to be made when specific goals are completed: do I pursue another specific goal in support of my general goal, or do I come up with a new general goal entirely?

Dwight
02-14-2008, 12:28 PM
This is just a guess but those "double" Beliefs look like they would generate more Artha. They get around the trade-off of specific vs. general, where specific Beliefs get you that precious Persona while the more general Beliefs tend to net you more Fate because they are an easier target to hit. It is like you are getting an extra Belief for your character.

So, assuming my guess is correct, whether or not you see them as a good idea probably depends on how much Artha you want flowing through your game. If you are like Mr. Crane where even in the rules text he's an avowed Artha miser you might not like such a treatment of Beliefs. Me I generally like lots of juice flowing, not so 'gritty', so I would tend to be more friendly to such a tack.

xenomouse
02-14-2008, 12:35 PM
Oh, sorry. I have no idea whatsoever. I let itunes do all that behind the scenes mallarcky. :) Someone else here may be able to help though.
John
I found it:
http://canonpuncture.libsyn.com/rss

John Anderson
02-14-2008, 12:44 PM
That's it I suppose, at the end of the day it's got to be what the group as a whole are comfortable with. Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with it depending on what type of game we were going for, but I think I would also prefer tighter beliefs which would focus play more.

In my current game, I think the players beliefs are too loose, and that may cause a lack of focus in what they're trying to achieve in the future (we're only one session in after all). I'm definitely going to try and get them to tighten them up so that they can really identify where they're going with the character and so that we can all really, really, really hit those unambiguous beliefs hard.

I think this whole post came out of trying to get the players to focus their beliefs and my inability to vocalize what I, as GM, wanted from players who were inexperienced with BW. Looking back, I think really tight, focused beliefs (either open-ended or resolvable) will help new players learn BW. Again, however, this is just my opinion. ;)
John

stormsweeper
02-14-2008, 01:18 PM
I'm sorry. I meant the rss feed, like the one for Virtual Play:
http://virtualplay.podbus.com/?feed=rss2

It allows other to access your podcast from a podcast reader.

http://feeds.feedburner.com/canonpuncture

luke
02-14-2008, 01:24 PM
John,
I'm glad the interview helped!

Also, did anybody else pick up on this?


John,
A nice summary; very useful. I'll be borrowing some of your language tonight in a Burning Empires world- and character-burning session!
Mel

Mel's playing Burning Empires on VALENTINES DAY!

Bring 'em flowers and chocolates, Mel!
-L

stormsweeper
02-14-2008, 01:46 PM
Pickles?

Mel White
02-14-2008, 02:18 PM
Also, did anybody else pick up on this?

Mel's playing Burning Empires on VALENTINES DAY!

Bring 'em flowers and chocolates, Mel!
-L

Doesn't everybody play Burning Empires on Valentine's Day? You poor people.

xenomouse
02-14-2008, 03:01 PM
Pickles?
I agree. The fact that you use a silly word rather than a mild beep is rather distracting.

John Anderson
02-14-2008, 03:01 PM
Pickles?

:)
That did confuse me greatly, but they seemed happy.
John

stormsweeper
02-14-2008, 03:06 PM
I was going mad as I first thought it was some weird web ad or maybe the mp3 was skipping. It's just so abruptly cut in.

EarthenForge
02-14-2008, 03:07 PM
I agree. The fact that you use a silly word rather than a mild beep is rather distracting.

Yeah, Luke. Why can't you swear like a normal person? Pickles is lame, man.

Mel: ok, now I'm really not convinced you have a wife. (Hee - this coming from someone whose V-Day plans include watching LOST!) But your nerd rep just went up.

sanjwise
02-14-2008, 03:31 PM
I was going mad as I first thought it was some weird web ad or maybe the mp3 was skipping. It's just so abruptly cut in.

I downloaded the podcast onto iTunes and for some reason it stopped at 16min and 10secs? What the? Just before Luke's interview.

What to do?

Sanj

John Anderson
02-14-2008, 03:46 PM
I downloaded the podcast onto iTunes and for some reason it stopped at 16min and 10secs? What the? Just before Luke's interview.

What to do?

Sanj

The ways of Itunes are mysterious. Alas, I am not privy to their arcane ways. If at first you don't succeed, try downloading it again? It's definitely worth it, pickles aside.
John

xenomouse
02-14-2008, 03:47 PM
I just downloaded the file and double-clicked it.

John Anderson
02-14-2008, 03:50 PM
I just downloaded the file and double-clicked it.

The Itunes-fu is strong in xenomouse!
:)
John

sanjwise
02-14-2008, 04:04 PM
I just downloaded the file and double-clicked it.

How many minutes long is your file?

Its supposed to be 25min or some such. Mine's 16 and change.

Sanj

John Anderson
02-14-2008, 04:07 PM
From memory as I'm on the laptop but about an hour seems right.
John

xenomouse
02-14-2008, 04:09 PM
Canon Puncture Episode 24 is 51 minutes long.

DarthMidget
02-14-2008, 05:04 PM
If you have problems with Itunes just try direct downloading. I didn't have any problems.

John Anderson
02-15-2008, 11:43 AM
I suppose another way of putting it may be the way SoTC describes aspects. They're either Story related or Situational. Story as in they're Beliefs which introduce an external element or Situational which suggest the kind of situations in which the Belief would be relevant.
John