Artha discussion

[eruditus]

Okay so i am bringin the Gray Scale Power discussion into a new thread about using Artha...

I have found that with many "Hero/Action point" systems it tends to be far more useful to save them and spend them for development than it is to use them for a few spiffy die bumps.

Abzu tells me that has not been the case.

Could players (both in Abzu's campaign and in other settings) tell me why you think this is? I mean, the bonuses Artha gives you are cool but so is cutting a swath through all that opposes you :)

Alternately I also realize than many of the systems that use those sorts of mechanics are also not as deadly as BW (yay!) Is this a matter of types of players, GMing, what?

[luke]

ah jeez, you're outing my big surprise...

First of all, points reward systems that are used toward "advancement" always lead to hoarding. I've run many BW campaigns (and many shadow run to boot) and points are always husbanded and rarely used to the desired effect.

In response to that, I turned up the heat. BW is very deadly, and I flex that muscle to threaten characters and make them really WANT to spend that artha to LIVE.

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Often this ends up just punishing the unlucky or inexperienced. Lately, kirin, kublai and I have cooked up a variant artha system that actually rewards you for spending. I am leary about posting it since it hasn't been as thoroughly playtested as I'd like, but I will give you the link if you're interested. (because I am a pushover.)

-abzy

[Drozdal]

I have found that with many "Hero/Action point" systems it tends to be far more useful to save them and spend them for development than it is to use them for a few spiffy die bumps.


SAVE? Man whey you're dragged to be scarificed (eaten by) to a great spider, deep into dark woods by his minions, you do not think about saving those points for "later" advancement - because if you do not spend them at the moment there will be no "later" - and that night i made like 6 or 7 escape attempts :P, because i had wasted my only one point of artha on some lame roll earlier ;] So save your points but don't be affraid to spend them, think like a character not like a player for gawd sake.

Drozdal

[Yagathai]

So save your points but don't be affraid to spend them, think like a character not like a player for gawd sake.

The problem with that is that, at least in the hero point/karma/drama dice/fate point/whatever systems that I've played, characters aren't typically aware of the points in question. That's all beholden upon the players. Does a BW character think to themselves "crap, that spider's going to eat me, so I'll sacrifice my future as a force of supernatural carnage in order to give me incredible web-escaping abilities for a short duration of time!"? I doubt it.

Furthermore, it seems to me as if invoking fate/cashing in spiritual enlightment/using an abstract game mechanic (in other words, spending Arta) shouldn't logically make it harder for somebody to become heroic. After all, if someone persistently doesn't spend Arta, and consistently schleps along, failing or barely succeeding at the really hard stuff and not doing anything Artastically spectacular, does it then follow that all of a sudden they become preternaturally endowed? Rather, shouldn't the character that takes risks, succeeds where failure seems inevitable and achieves unbelievable and brilliant victories sooner achieve a heroic and amazing status?

Think of it this way: Who's more worthy of being grey-shaded: D'artagnan, or a nebbish tax accountant who leads a conservative and mildly interesting life?

But then again, it's not my game system. :wink:

[luke]

check this out:

http://www.burningwheel.org/pdf/artha_wheel.pdf

i think it goes a long way toward addressing your problems.

For the uninitiated: This is a unedited draft of a future BW release. Please forgive me for the grammatical mistakes and crappy writing.

-abzu

[Yagathai]

Well, look at that. That's exactly the sort of thing that I was thinking. :D

It seems very complicated, though. Three different kinds of Arta is a lot to keep track of, especially in a system that already has lots to keep track of -- a player would need an Artha cheat-sheet just to keep straight how to spend how many Artha for what end. Also, I'm trying to imagine how to record all the different Artha expenditures for all of the different skills and stats that a character has, and it seems like it would be a huge pain in the tuchas. For a character with a dozen skills, I'd need a couple of extra pages just to keep track of my path to Epiphany!

I'm sure that you considered it, so I'm curious: What's wrong with just saying that a character recieves an Epiphany after spending x amount of plain ol' vanilla Artha on one trait or skill?

[Claymore]

It seems very complicated, though. Three different kinds of Arta is a lot to keep track of, especially in a system that already has lots to keep track of -- a player would need an Artha cheat-sheet just to keep straight how to spend how many Artha for what end. Also, I'm trying to imagine how to record all the different Artha expenditures for all of the different skills and stats that a character has, and it seems like it would be a huge pain in the tuchas. For a character with a dozen skills, I'd need a couple of extra pages just to keep track of my path to Epiphany!


That's what I was thinking too after reading the draft rules at the Indie Forums. Quite a lot to keep track of. Any thoughts towards streamlining the bookkeeping?

Claymore

[mike_ravenwood]

In the case of hero versus ta accountant, it's simple. the tax accountant would get NO ARTHA. I never award overly cautious players. If they don't try and stretch the bounds of their abilities they don't get the rewards. If they only attempt the odd test here and there they get the reward of skill advancement. If they take risks, reach, spend some Artha to do it they will be rewarded. If they luck out and manage some truely spectacular feats without Artha, they get closer to the magical number to Gray something, or it pads their future in case of a turn in luck. It comes down to what they accomplish and how they do it. I haven't read through the new Artha rules yet, but I think I'll keep it free form. Considering I keep track of the players tests for advancement more record keeping isn't in my future.

[eruditus]

Yeah, I see the way this probably should go. Spending Artha in a cool story-driven manner would set one up for further Artha rewards (maybe due to a cool idea that botched and needed to be carried out with Artha deserves and extra point at the end of the day. Thus, get two per session if you playing well in general, spend two in a session in cool ways, get three at the end of the session.

[luke]

as I said, these are draft rules and haven't been playtested as much as I'd like.

However, it's not as bad as it looks and it does serve the function you are after. Using vanilla artha, while definitely possible, becomes problematic for me. Spending 25 Luck points should not be the same as using Divine Inspiration/Double Dice 10 times. That's a small thing, though, and could easily be worked out

But, in the current system I think the individual point of artha holds too much weight and in that it is hard for the GM to reward players for the small roleplaying moments of playing BITs. If you award a couple of points of artha every night, you'll soon have some very bloated players. The new system attempts to categorize artha so the GM can reward as he sees fit without worry of serious consequences of bloat.

Anyway, I would be very curious to hear how Mike Ravenwood and Mad Hatter have been doing artha rewards in their campaigns.

As far as book keeping goes, I have worked up a modified character sheet to reflect the new artha system. It makes book keeping very easy. And since these rules are still in playtest, we are trying out these new rules while only allowing players to work/epiphany one skill at a time. Seems to be working so far and it keeps things focussed.

Honestly, we've had VERY few epiphanies in the history of BW and I would like to see more.

-abzu

[Kublai]

I've been playing for years and have never seen an in-game epiphany using the official rules. That was always disappointing. I look forward to the new way of doing Artha. However, I do have my criticisms.

It seems to me that unskilled characters will have an easier time of epiphanying Stats than skilled ones. This is because they will have more opportunities to test their Stats - and thus use Artha - when learning skills. Characters with more skills will have less opportunities to test their Root Stats, and less opportunities to use Artha towards Epiphany.

Also, some Stats and Attributes, such as Forte, are rarely tested at all during gameplay, which is less chance for Artha use and less chance for Epiphany. Conversely, some Stats are naturally easier to Epiphany, like Power, Perception, and Speed, since they're used all the time.

Finally, it's not right to limit how many skills or stats you can simultaneously work on towards an epiphany. It would be especially hard on new characters that don't have a focus yet. Of course, this leads to the problem of book-keeping. But to use book-keeping as the reason for implementing limits seems like a rules-hack - not organic at all.

[mike_ravenwood]

well my Artha awards don't get my players to sing my praises very much. I was be fairly free with them earlier on but I decided to crack down. I don have one vary lucky player how managed to keep in the game and do some serious damage (White Fire) and keep himself almost entirely unscathed through multiple combats, envolving orcs, undead, Trolls and Orc rituals. So he Grayed his Sorcery. Another player (a Priest) was doing quite well, was very close to an epiphany for Faith, and he was playing it quite well. He even pulled of a 10 Ob Divine Intervention on 5 Dice!!!! (removing the two opposing pirate ships). Anyway he was on the verge of his epiphany when bad luck struck hard. He was thrown head first into a stone wall by a very large Troll. He was not happy but spent the 7 points to stay alive long enough for the doctor to get to him and managed enough Health successes to stay alive. I regret my earlier awards during an interesting put not Artha worhty section of the game envolving some political intrigue and a Demon. They interacted well spent time practicing the skills learn what was the next course should be but not on the level I awarded them for. I couldn't in good conscience take back the Artha I'd given, but the Artha has been a bit sparce since and will remain so. It will become much harder to achieve and true accomplishment I should have made it from the start.

I'm thinking base of zero a game with a max of two. One if your pushing the limits, two if you go above and beyond. As for rewarding players for playing thier BITs I keep in mind how well they play them and will advance them accordingly. Give them more potent versions of their traits, allow them to apply their Beliefs and Instincts more losely.

[eruditus]

Okay, so i had an idea. This was my comprimise between the two systems.

As much as I liked the different types of Artha I really think it might be a little much hair-splitting. I think appropriate rewards as indicated by the rules will probably bear out.

The only thing I would change is Epiphanies.

Each stat/attribute/skill has a track - seven circles for stats/attributes, six circles for skills.

When an Artha is spent then the amount of Artha is marked through slashes through and equal number of circles in the appropriate area - GMs can also allow players to chose between Artha spending areas (ie using Artha when blocking could go toward the weapon skill, Agility or even Forte).

When slashes are through all seven/six circles then one circle is filled in. When all circles are filled in then the stat/attribute/skill can upgrade their shade AS LONG AS the character has also had a temporary Epiphany with that area (10 points) at an appropriate dramatic momment.

I have even been working on a development page for the character sheet (encompassing artha earned, skills, stats/attributes, and skills being learned).

Thoughts?

[luke]

huh, it could work.

But you know it is even MORE book keeping than my system?

anyway, if you are going this far you should just use the advancement system track.

Luck only counts as Routines.
Shrugs and Focus and stuff only counts as Diffies.
Divine Inpiration and Saving Grace count as Challengings.
Each time one of these feats is used mark an A on one of the circles.

Once all the circles are filled, the skill/stat may Epiphany, so long as the character has performed an Aristeia (see the new artha rules).

thoughts?

[luke]

btw Mike,

I've seen a character thrown head first into a wall by a troll. It's not pretty. Your priest is lucky he even got a chance to use some artha. I know a certain dwarf that was killed INSTANTLY and had no artha to save him.

-abzu

[Yagathai]

Once all the circles are filled, the skill/stat may Epiphany, so long as the character has performed an Aristeia (see the new artha rules).

thoughts?

While I think that Eruditus' system is more elegant, yours does have the incredibly important virtue of simplicity. I only see two issues here: Stats don't have a Routine track to fill in, and also keeping track of which circles have a tiny letter A in them, which are filled in and which have both could be a little bit annoying.

[mike_ravenwood]

yes the priest had several hanging minor miracles that up his health for the combat, and Ob 7 or 8 for for a similar purpose. At the time he met the wall he had around 20 Artha as well, so he came out...alive with plenty of divine assistance that helped him survive and pass the health tests. He thought ahead and lived to tell the tale.

[nebulousmenace]

I have an idea- how about "half the Artha you spend goes into an Epiphany pool"?

Once the epiphany pool gets up to 25 you can Epiph a skill, or 35 you can Epiph a stat. Which stat or which skill has to be OK'd by the GM. ("Yes, I know, I put all my Artha into blocks and parries, but I really want Grey painting skill." )

And maybe you can't Epiph something with "regular" artha, or only 10 points of "regular" can go in, or something.

I think this just requires a player to keep track of one new thing (the Epiph pool) instead of Fate and Character and Destiny and other italian-opera favorites.

Am I on painkillers or what?

[luke]

well my Artha awards don't get my players to sing my praises very much. I was be fairly free with them earlier on but I decided to crack down.
....but the Artha has been a bit sparce since and will remain so. It will become much harder to achieve and true accomplishment I should have made it from the start.

I'm thinking base of zero a game with a max of two. One if your pushing the limits, two if you go above and beyond. As for rewarding players for playing thier BITs I keep in mind how well they play them and will advance them accordingly.

I've been thinking about this a bit. And Mike's comments illustrate the precise problems I have with the current artha system (and its hacks).

I was the same was as Mike--very stingy with artha so as not to have any surprising or unwanted epiphanies. And even so, i had a player in each campaign who would quietly hoard away! Not that I mind quietness, but invariably these players never DID anything. They were always the ones who skated by scott-free, the players who were in the thick of the madness had to blow all their artha to get by. Which is how it should be! But the quiet, background character was closer to epiphany than the frontline character.

My players complain about my artha rewards endlessly. Sometimes I go months! without out granting artha. (We play every week).

It is ridiculous to me for a GM to have to be cautious miser like this. Rewards should come as fast and as furious as the action. The GM shouldn't be paranoid about his players growing bloated and ridiculous, and the game shouldn't stop to dish those rewards. Since all of this exists in the current artha system, I see it as BROKEN.

Using the Artha Wheel system, allows finer control and detail. It allows the GM to reward players for exactly what they are doing, and allows it to be done on the spot and often without worry of bloat.

I've already integrated the Artha system into a 4pg character sheet. The artha section takes up exactly as much room as it did before and it makes the "book-keeping" much easier. In fact, once you get adjusted to it, the book keeping is INCREDIBLY minor.

My players were already knocking off Deeds and Fate left and right last session... All with the hope of a coming Epiphany.

And as to Kublai's comment that it's broken because you can only work on one Epiphany at time: ::sniff sniff:: Do I smell a powergamer? The "There Can Be Only One" rule creates a focus for the player to work with, a goal to acheive.

And as for the "it's easier for less experienced characters to Epiphany a Stat than it is for more experienced characters." This is perfectly acceptable to me. More experienced (starting) characters are farther down life's paths. They are more set in stone. Much more potential in it for less experienced (starting) characters. And I don't think it is a bad thing that a character with a B8 Will (actual example from play) and every social skill in the book is going to have trouble Graying his Will. Call me gamist, but it seems a little balancing...

-abzu

[luke]

here is a revision of the revised artha rules. I tried to address your concerns.

http://www.burningwheel.org/pdf/artha_wheel_r2.pdf

also, a revised character sheet to accomodate the new info:

http://www.burningwheel.org/pdf/ss_cs_artha.pdf

Both of these are currently in beta test.

Enjoy!
-abzu

[Bankuei]

Hi Abzu,

It is ridiculous to me for a GM to have to be cautious miser like this. Rewards should come as fast and as furious as the action. The GM shouldn't be paranoid about his players growing bloated and ridiculous, and the game shouldn't stop to dish those rewards. Since all of this exists in the current artha system, I see it as BROKEN.


Play you some Riddle of Steel yet? The SA system is completely on point with the issues you speak of. I've never had any issues with handing out fast rewards in games(but boy, do people earn it...), but then again, my campaigns usually are set to run between 8-12 sessions, so I don't sweat uber characters popping up.

As a side question, do you find that PCs can get too powerful and unbalance your campaign? I'm asking in terms of personal experience, not hypothetical cases. I'm interested, simply because for the amount of play with BW you've had, I'm curious as to what experience and ideas went into your ideas of how fast characters should progress.

Chris

[luke]

As a side question, do you find that PCs can get too powerful and unbalance your campaign? I'm asking in terms of personal experience, not hypothetical cases. I'm interested, simply because for the amount of play with BW you've had, I'm curious as to what experience and ideas went into your ideas of how fast characters should progress

Actually, no. I have some extraordinarily powerful PCs in my game and I enjoy them quite a bit. Fixing challenges for them can be difficult sometimes--they are a bizarre mix of undefeatable and very mortal--but i've found that when i moved away from "combat oriented adventures" challenges were abundant. Political, cultural, intellectual and sorcerous challenges are far more interesting to me now.

I dunno. It's really hard to be "too powerful" in BW. There is always something that can kick your ass. Jeez, each of these "too powerful" characters can still be laid out by a single great bow shot.


Characters should get better as the adventure demands, skill wise. Epiphanies should happen --maybe-- at the end of a campaign arc. At least a year of game play. The character's pedigree of accomplishments should be long and amazing.

For example, closing the Gate to Hell after years of campaigning, is a worthy point for an epiphany.

-abzu

[Claymore]

Play you some Riddle of Steel yet? The SA system is completely on point with the issues you speak of. I've never had any issues with handing out fast rewards in games(but boy, do people earn it...), but then again, my campaigns usually are set to run between 8-12 sessions, so I don't sweat uber characters popping up.

Chris

I also enjoyed the SA system in TRoS. My problem with it however was the way the dice bonuses came in depending on how broad a player defined his Spiritual attributes. I saw examples on the RoS forum with a character getting +17 dice (and who routinely got 6-10 extra dice)! I prefer BW's Artha rules (and the new ones are even better!) for handling game affecting "karma".

I am also concerned about shading. First off, it's a huge jump from a black to a grey shade, and I personally will not allow a player to go to white. I'm curious to hear other peoples' comments who have run extended campaigns and have seen the effects of shading on play first hand.

BTW Chris, my RoS combat to BW has been posted over on the indie BW forum http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=6956 I'm curious to hear any thoughts you might have on it as you own both games.



-Claymore

[eruditus]

Reality Check,

So I warned my players that only fools use their last two Artha which should be saved for the Will to Live.

However one of my players has Resigned as a trait (he is raised and trained with a cultural morae that says death is just another step in the soul's journey and holds no value one way or the other). As such I am thinking that once a game, if he spends his last Artha he will be rewarded an extra Artha. Does anyone have a problem with that perspective on awarding roleplaying Artha? Does that seem too much like a double-advantage - advantage from spending the Artha without the full disad of having to spend it?

I am also trying to work out semi mechanical ways for other character traits to generate Artha. nothing yet.

[Yagathai]

Question: If a stat is epiphanied during play, do all the skills that use that stat as a root also shade-shift? What about new skill with that stat as a root learned during play?

[Kublai]

I dunno. It's really hard to be "too powerful" in BW. There is always something that can kick your ass. Jeez, each of these "too powerful" characters can still be laid out by a single great bow shot.


This was prophetic. My character, arguably one of the most powerful in the campaign, was just assassinated by a coward with a long bow. B12 will get ya every time. :cry:

[luke]

Question: If a stat is epiphanied during play, do all the skills that use that stat as a root also shade-shift? What about new skill with that stat as a root learned during play?

Yes, yes, and yes.

Does this bother me as being too powerful? Not one bit.

Kublai's character, a man with 8 Gray skills (one of which was a G9), was laid low by a single shot from a great bow.

Of course I feel terrible about this, but nothing and no one is immortal in BW.

-abzu

[Kublai]

Question: If a stat is epiphanied during play, do all the skills that use that stat as a root also shade-shift? What about new skill with that stat as a root learned during play?

This question is unanswered in the book. My reaction is that all rooted skills should go grey immediately. Of course, Abzu's first reaction was that no rooted skill already learnt would go grey. After some debate, he later ruled that the skill must be relearnt in order to express the "greyness." So, to grey out a skill rooted in a newly epiphanied stat, you must earn half the necessary advancement tests for that skill level. These wouldn't count towards improving the exponent, but rather count towards grey-itude. After it went grey, then you could earn advancement tests as normal. Or something like that. :?

If you stat goes grey and then you learn new skills based on that stat, then the new skills begin with a grey exponent.

[luke]

So, to grey out a skill rooted in a newly epiphanied stat, you must earn half the necessary advancement tests for that skill level. These wouldn't count towards improving the exponent, but rather count towards grey-itude. After it went grey, then you could earn advancement tests as normal. Or something like that.

um, after one playtest abzu realized that this was madness and changed his mind and the "rules" to reflect that a Gray stat means Gray roots means Gray skills. Kublai.robot's mechanical process updater seems to be stuck on an outdated subroutine. I am going to have to call macro.soft to come and take a look at him. This has happened before, I'm afraid if they can't fix it this time Kublai.robot will be taken back to the factory and I'll have to get a new model. Which is a shame. I really love my Kublai.robot, he's very quirky. But if that updater can't be fixed he's going to eventually just forget who even I am.

::sigh::
-abzu

[Kublai]

bzzzrpt. :shock:

[eruditus]

I believe I will use the perspective of...

train in the skill as if it were being learned anew to bring it to its root stat's gray shade. Why?

I like the idea of having this sort of power and it being alien (Luke once mentioned one of his players with a gray perception and the man didn't see things as everyone else did). I used to use this idea for Vampire where you needed to get acclimated to your new found power and with a little use you eventually could use your disciplines to their fullest - before then folks with Celerity (white speed :) ) were runnig into walls and shit.

So in my home games I will have it where if a stat is shaded then the associated skills need to be used a few times after getting the shade shift to utilize them as gray skills (as suggested above).