Levels of Detail for BW

[Rob Alexander]

Hi all,

(May be best read in tandem with my other post here: http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?p=54691#post54691)

I'm going to run my 2nd BW session tomorrow night, and I'm thinking of offering it for a 3-month run at the local gaming club. The overall complexity of rules, given the lack of players who are already familiar with it (contrast with D&D), is extremely intimidating. For the club game, particularly, I'd want to slim it down a lot, and for the current one I'm looking at keeping it very simple (we'll have four players this time compared to two in the first session).

The BW book is structured in three levels of detail, yes. There is a rules summary on the wiki, and lots of forum posts about how to simplify Fight!, yes. But there's nothing in one place that tells a beginning BW GM how to introduce the game in stages, listing all the different subsystems. (Note the assumption of "GM teaches the rules" - that's how it'll be for both groups, particularly as I have only one set of books).

So, I've sketched out what I think are a good set of "levels" to work through, in terms of complexity. This frontloads the distinctive elements of BW while keeping the level of detail manageable. I might use Level 1 in my first session, 2 and 3 in the second, etc, judging at each stage how the group's taking it.

Level 1 is based on the post by Quixoteles (here: http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?p=54190#post54190), and I'm indebted to him for the overall direction I've taken (Beliefs and Artha being front, centre and smeared across all internal surfaces). (It seems more natural, however, to assign dice for tests by lifepath relevance, rather than using 4D and messing with the Ob).

The levels:

1) Beliefs, Artha, Lifepaths, Tests, Versus Tests
2) Traits, Help, Linked Tests
3) Instincts, Stats, Attributes
4) Skills, FoRKS, Advancement
5) Emotional Attributes
6) DoW, Bloody Versus, Trait Vote (inc MVP and Workhorse)
7) Resources, Circles, all Artha get & spend, (spend rps now inc spells etc), sorcery with general spell descriptions
8) R&C, Chases
9) Simplified Fight! (basic actions, damage), Spellsongs
10) Stances, Unwieldly Weapons
11) Positioning, Armour Penalties
12) Full sorcery rules
13) Non-standard rules e.g. Monster Burning for PCs, Spirit Binding, Abstractions

So, thoughts? On the precise placing of aspects/sub-systems, or on the idea of organising the rules by levels at all.

A major part of my intent is to get me and the players digging into the most novel, exciting and nontraditional elements from the very start.

One thing occurs - a lot of the advice on managing BW complexity is about choosing details on the fly. E.g. Luke, I get the impression that even you use Fight! less than half the time? I'm not sure if my levels particularly help with this.


yours,
rob

[Z-Dog]

rob, ain't nothing wrong with that list

just a thought: introduce systems as they become important in play,

and/or as your players clamor for more detail in certain areas

[zabieru]

Is running a demo an option? I think starting with pregens will ease some of the difficulties because it gives everyone a chance to see what rocks and what sucks, what skills they need, what a given number means, and all that.

I'd break out the Duel of Wits and Fight! from your level structure. Make it like this instead:

(1-13: Levels without any detailed conflict mechanics)
A: Social Skill Versus Tests, NPC vs PC (PC vs PC gets complicated, save it for later), with discussion of intent and stakes.
B: Simple DoW (If you can break this out at a time when escalation ISN'T an issue, that might be better), body of argument, statement of position, scripting, roleplaying, compromise.
C: Messy DoW (escalation, audience as real stakes of conflict, etc)

Red: Bloody Versus
Orange: Simple Fight! (weapons, reflexes, scripting, damage. Strike, Block, Avoid, Counterstrike, Block and Strike)
Yellow: Steel and Hesitation (Probably this can go in your first Fight!, depending on how that's going)
Green: Armor (If your PCs get hit, let them have armor right away, but unless they have VA weapons, don't put them up against armor first thing)
Blue: Stances and Positioning (Aggressive, Defensive, Great Strike, close, maintain, avoid. Lunging, optimal, inside. Weapon lengths. Daggers and pommel strikes)
Indigo: Special maneuvers (charge, lock, throw, etc)

Use Range and Cover either
A: If the PCs are good at it, when it comes up, or
B: If the PCs are not showing flags (skills, equipment, etc) that indicate a desire to use Range and Cover, introduce it after they're a bit comfortable with Fight!

This way you can drop them in as necessary, rather than needing to have a DoW in Session 3 even if that's more of a brawly place in the story... You'll notice that my Fight! spectrum is pretty fine-grained and you could certainly move several colors in one Fight! if your players were catching it fast. Also, Yellow and Green could go in either order, depending on who's getting hit. If the PCs are cleaning house when one of them takes a hit, use Hesitation. On the other hand, if they're struggling, definitely give them armor and maybe save Hesitation for the next go-around (or have him make a Steel check and explain that normally he'd need to pick from the Hesitation options, but this time you're going to give him the option of running, surrendering, or continuing the fight. If they have decent Range and Cover capability and the players' eyes haven't glazed over from rules overload yet, a fighting retreat could be an AWESOME way to show them how much cooler running away is than a D&D total party kill.)

[eruditus]

I have to admit I like what I am seeing. Although arguably our group went right into DoW for the second session (wold and character burning first) and Fight in the second session. All the players have the book and I saw very few misses.

Remind your players that BW requires buyin. If they are willing to engage the rules and learn them then you're golden.

[Mel White]

The thing that sold me on the Burning Wheel is the 'Duel of Wits'. I found it the most novel and exciting element of the game. I recommend conducting a DoW early in play to win over your players...
I think the DoW really distinguishes BW, and because it is such a visible element in play it sticks with the players. Even better is if the DoW is between two player characters, with the other PCs helping one side or the other.
Mel

[Paul B]

Next time I teach BW to someone from scratch here's the order I'll follow:

1) Intent clarity in versus tests. Get them thinking about scene framing -- what is your effort "about"? What's the point of what you're doing here?

2) Complications upon failure, starting with player input (i.e. "If you fail, where do you see the story spinning off to?). Build the collaborative relationship with the GM.

3) Resources and Circles. Resources is pretty easy at this point -- either you make the roll or you don't, with either tax or a complication resulting. Circles is the mind-bender so I'd spend some time focusing, again, on the Intent behind the Circles roll.

4) How to use BITs to get Artha, and then how to spend it (F and P, leave out D, Aristeia, Epiphany, advancement, etc.)

5) Bloody Versus for fightin', explaining there's a more detailed system that introduces a lot of tactics and uncertainty. That is, set up this expectation early on but don't get into the details of it 'til later.

6) DOW: BOA = your "argument hit points", then Statement = your Intent, then scripting (again, explaining that this scripting system is the basis for how full-fledged Fight! is going to work). I think I'd go with a full DOW download at this point.

7) Character burning: Beliefs first, then Instincts, then a 5-LP burn.

7a) Emotional Attributes, Sorcery, etc. if they come up in burning.

8) Simple Fight: scripting only, and only Fight-specific maneuvers.

9) Explain skill advancement as an option. Explain when and how you note tests. Explain Aresteia, Epiphany, shade-shifting, etc.

10) Slightly less simple Fight: Add armor and non-Fight stuff like Assess (with Intent) and position (against single opponents, again with Intent).

11) Range and Cover, full system. They'll have figured out what's coming by the time they've done #10.

12) Full-blown Fight, adding in stances, armor penalties, weapon modifiers, etc. etc. I'd do this once and make sure the extra detail was something that enriched the game.

p.

[dsellars]

Paul, I like that list.

[Jaroslav]

I had another idea for making BW play a little easier for people who are new to the game, but it's not about "levels of detail," so I started a new thread here:
http://burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?p=54758#post54758
-John

[Z-Dog]

so who's going to put all this brilliance on the wiki? not I!

[eruditus]

So Paul, why not combine the first and second levels? I think they are equally important and tied in together. And I LOVE starting with this!

- Don

[Paul B]

Oh, that's purely procedural -- and you're right, of course. I'd probably explain the two halves of the transaction: here's a clear Intent, and here's a clear failure -- which is only a complication, because just plain failure is boring -- and the reason we do both is so we're all on the same page when the dice come out. It'd definitely happen in the same session.

I'm not sure if I have firm guidelines in my head as to what steps would happen in which session. Probably whatever pace the player(s) could tolerate.

Come to think of it, I'd also need to jam in "Say Yes" and "one roll per Intent" in there somewhere as well. It's all sort of a package deal.

p.

[eruditus]

Come to think of it, I'd also need to jam in "Say Yes" and "one roll per Intent" in there somewhere as well. It's all sort of a package deal.

p.

Ah, I see. I guess I sorta lost the thread somewhere in here in thinking each level is a sessions worth of information but that obviously is not the case :)

[Paul B]

The order is the thing, I think. I'd stick to that order, with every hope that I could get through all of it in two sessions, three max. If it's taking more than three sessions to show all the moving parts, then maybe this particular player isn't really going to need/want to see them.

Unless I encountered strong resistance, I could probably get through it all in one session (4ish hours).

p.

[Rob Alexander]

Thanks all for your comments and advice. We had our second session last week and it went pretty well.

Had a 4-on-3 Fight! at the end and it took at least 45 minutes... that broke the pace a bit. This was at player request, response afterwards was mixed. I suspect that we'll drop to BV for most combat.

Part of the problem - not only did we use the armour rules, but I gave the lead NPC chain armour and only one PC of four had a VA 1 weapon. We realised part-way through that one player had B3 Sword and only a PQ weapon, so was near useless.

Next session is friday and one player wants to do a Fight! with Positioning. We'll see! I'll push for a DoW because only two of the players have seen one.

Looking back over the thread, Instincts, Resources and the full gamut of Artha spend & get need emphasis too. Useful stuff to know.

[Yokiboy]

Part of the problem - not only did we use the armour rules, but I gave the lead NPC chain armour and only one PC of four had a VA 1 weapon. We realised part-way through that one player had B3 Sword and only a PQ weapon, so was near useless.

The player could've performed an Assess action with the Intent of finding a weak spot in the NPC's armor.

[luke]

Welcome to BW armor! It's a lovely thing. Protects and preserves, it does. But it's not infallible, nope.

Anyway, if you just ran a fight in which your players were bashing away at an armored opponent and getting nowhere, you've encountered a common hurdle when using Fight!. Fight! is a tactical system of some depth. It allows for creative solutions from problems.

Next time you're in a situation where there's a fight brewing at your table, be sure to describe the scene and the opponents in clear detail. Then, this is important, ask the players to imagine they were there. What would they do to achieve victory and survive unscathed? I promise that whatever plan they devise can be easily translated into Fight.

-L