When to award Artha for following a Belief?

[Salar]

Hi all,
One thing that came up in my current Burning Gates of Hell game, is the giving of Artha for following a Belief and when that Artha should be given.

The situation is Conrad, an ex mercenary bodyguard with the Belief that he will "take on morally dubious acts so that others may be saved from sin", has agreed to kidnap a 9-year-old girl and deliver her to a crime lord (to be held as leverage over a rival gang member). However, the girl's father is now dead and the child's protector (and murderer of the father) is Conrad's brother, a priest. The priest has stated that the child will not be handed over, and in fact with the gang member dead, the child wouldn't be needed for leverage.

My question: At what point is Artha given for following a Belief. When the agreement is made, or when the act completed?

The way I played it (off the cuff, as it were) was to award the point when the agreement was made. My rationale? Conrad's player knew who the child was and the circumstances surrounding her when his character made the deal. He knew he was getting Conrad potentially into trouble, but still agreed. The fact that he then thought of a way of dealing with the crime lord so that the child didn't need to be handed over yet, (they owe the crime lord a favour, and the father of the child was the brother of the head of the rival gang and may still be used as a pawn) seemed to justify that decision.

Thoughts?

John

[Kublai]

I'd say Artha is awarded when the act is completed or the intent is resolved through action. You've got to do something to earn that Persona, not just plan and talk.

Taking it on, as described in the Belief, means seeing it through to the end. Looking at it again with a Scrooge mentality, since he didn't actually have to do anything morally ambiguous, maybe there's no Persona awarded at all!

But whatever. As long as you guys feel happy, that's important.

[Salar]

So in effect, it's similar to, if not the same as, taking on a new Belief? The moral being, be careful what you agree to.
John

[Thor Olavsrud]

I'm in agreement with Kublai. I'll add that you can and should award Fate artha to the player for pursuing his Belief in play. Laying the groundwork for the kidnapping, etc.

As long as the Belief is used to drive situation in the game, it's worth Fate Artha.

As for Persona, I think the difficulty you're having is that the player has what we call a proto-belief and not a fully formed one.

A belief about "taking on morally dubious acts so that others may be saved from sin" is great for earning Fate, but how do you accomplish it for Persona?

What you do is you have "I will take on morally dubious acts so that others may be saved from sin" as a Belief and when you settle on a goal to fulfill that belief, you add it:

"I will take on morally dubious acts so that others may be saved from sin. I'll kidnap the girl and deliver her to the crimelord."

Now you know that when he kidnaps the girl and delivers her to the crime lord, he'll earn a Persona point for accomplishing his belief. And you also know that if he kidnaps the girl and then struggles with his conscience and decides not to turn her over, he'll earn a Persona point for Moldbreaker.

Make sense?

[Salar]

Cheers for this guys,
Yep, it all makes perfect sense. I was coming at it from the wrong angle. In effect, Conrad's Belief is open-ended, or unachievable, but the player chooses when and how it becomes achievable by taking on such tasks that are morally dubious, in order to save another from sin. At that point his Belief changes. In that respect I quite like the Belief he had chosen as it allows him great say in how he achieves various tasks within a moral framework that he has defined.

His belief, as you say Thor, should now read...

"I will take on morally dubious acts so that others may be saved from sin. I'll kidnap the girl and deliver her to the crimelord."

...and when completed and a persona earned, or not, the Belief reverts back to it's open-ended state until he takes on another morally dubious act for another. It will earn him fate for following it (which is what I gave for him taking on the job) but he only gets the chance at Persona when he actually takes on a morally dubious act and consciously changes his Belief.

So I guess I was right (in only awarding a fate point), but didn't know why. Now I just have to tell the player that if he wishes to see a persona point he has to add the conditional aspect that he agreed to to the Belief. I feel an emissary from the crime-lord calling in a favour very soon...

John

[Kublai]

::high five::

[Salar]

:)
John