How would you use Foreign Languages?

[Sempiternity]

I'm starting a new game where the PCs are colonists settled in a primal land inhabited by hostile / potentially hostile natives...

...and one PC as a Belief which basically sums up to "make peace with the natives"...

...all of which makes me wonder how i can have fun with the language barrier issue within this larger mileau of cultural conflict.


What I was thinking about doing was to allow the roll of a "Native Language" skill - via Beginner's Luck - when entering a social situation with natives speaking their own language; If the roll fails, then all tests made in the scene are at a disadvantage, but if it succeeds, then the character can glean some hidden info for an advantage... or something... I'm not sure!

But i do have a few specific questions:

1. What advantage should the character get for speaking the language passably-well? (with a successful test) What things would be nifty in general?

2. Does anyone actually use the Foreign Languages skill? If so, how do you play it once the skill has been opened - just roll it when gaining an advantage from speaking the language *well* would make sense?

3. What do you do for a Duel of Wits between speakers differing in language? (And, yes, i read the thread about DoW through an interpreter (http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5676) and the one before it (http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?p=55099&posted=1#post55099)...) Is it the best solution for my situation to just tell my players to suck it up and learn the language, or should i hit the PC with a disadvantage to BoA?

I've been kind of assuming you can roll Beginner's Luck language tests, and that that means you can sort of speak a "pigin" of the language - and thus communicate to some extent....

It's frustrating - the language issues seem interesting story-wise, but are frustrating mechanically! :(

[birdlander]

The single most elegant way to deal with the language issue, imho, is to treat fluency in the various languages in your campaign as character traits. If the use of different languages in your campaign world is mostly a matter of color, then it shouldn't have any real mechanical effect. If confronting and overcoming language barriers is an important theme in your campaign, then it's important enough to make lack of fluency an artha mine.

To the extent you want a mechanical effect, then you should probably just keep in mind the language barrier when you're thinking up complications as a result of failure. That haggling roll you failed when dealing with the chief's daughter has the natives surrounding your camp and insisting you make an honest woman of her....

Matt

[Sempiternity]

Hmmm....

....languages as Traits does seem to have a certain attractiveness to it!

Following from that, it would be nice to do it as Cultural Traits, but i don't know how i would compel the *lack* of the language trait within the rules...

...but i do like how you have to take in-play effort to learn the language to get the Trait voted on, and how you could wind up with fun alternative traits (like "Amusing Accent") by learning the language wrong or badly (failed tests)!


So, the big, big disadvantage with using Traits is the lack of mutualism inherent in Traits - you'd need a Trait on yourself, like "Doesn't Speak the Language", to get the desired effect (of complication compels for failure to communicate smoothly)....

...that might work for a character going into a setting (so to speak), but for my situation, where two "settings" are coming together, that doesn't look like it will work in a straightforward manner. Too bad, 'cause the Trait idea is clever!

(As an observation, the trouble with languages seems to be that they are a back-and-forth sort of thing, which doesn't lend itself readily to the "things stuck on a character" model of the game... When they have trouble communicating in a movie, it always seems like pushing through an extra obstacle to get their intent across & accomplished... which brings us back to a situation disadvantage +Ob, which maybe could then "be triggered" by presence/absence of the appropriate pair (etc) of language Traits btw the characters... hmm... Lots to think about Birdlander Matt! Thanks. :D)

[birdlander]

A few additional points:

1. If overcoming communication barriers is going to be a big part of the game, then it's entirely appropriate to give all characters (not just player characters) an appropriate number of additional trait points earmarked for language-related character traits.

2. The character traits don't have to be as simple as "Fluent in Xhosa" or "Doesn't Speak Afrikaans." It would probably be a lot more fun to choose traits like "My Pencil is Big and Yellow" or "Knows Only Swear Words in Chinese." Or how about "They'll Understand My English If I Speak Loudly Enough"?

3. Even supposedly beneficial beneficial traits like "Speaks Russian with Native Accent" can create complications. Just ask Americans who spoke German during WW1, or people who speak Spanish in public today. If the campaign involves mistrust and suspicion from alien cultures colliding, then being associated with "Them" can be a liability, especially if there are people in your own society who stand to benefit from mistrust of the outsiders.

4. As for the mutuality problem, it's only a problem if one of the players has chosen traits that don't involve the language barrier. If the players aren't choosing language traits, it may be a sign that it's not really something that interests them. If the players can't choose language traits because they don't have enough trait points (possibly a problem with, for instance, elves), then consider giving additional points (see 1). What's more, even characters who don't start with language traits can get them in play, especially character traits related to their inability to communicate.

5. Adding separate language mechanics would, imho, make the game unneccessarily complex and unsatisfying. As I said before, if confronting the language barrier isn't something worth awarding artha for, then it's even less worth devoting additional rules to.

[luke]

I've never found good rules for language/fluency in roleplaying games. It's a very difficult thing to approach, since the game is conducted purely via a common language.

If you come up with anything, let me know!

[Mordaith]

When using Language skills we set fail stakes just like everything else. Basically we hand wave communication unless there is going to be an important moving the story forward roll. When the players need to explain to the guards that they are innocent, when they need to address the visiting Sheik in his native tongue, or even when we find a mysterious note written in the language of the Celestials we make a roll.

We want to explain to the guards our innocence. Success and maybe we're given a chance to help them? or maybe at least not tossed in prison just yet. Fail, things get complicated. Turns out the guards understand us completely and are on the take from the vile wizard trying to frame us. Or maybe we accidentally insulted the virtue of the captains mother.

We want the Sheik to be impressed with our knowledge of his land, customs and native language. We fail? Oh no we've insulted him! He thinks we are trying to show off how superior our own peoples intellect is to his own. Or worse, we've impressed him all right. He seems particularly impressed with the parties young sorceress.

You get the picture.

That is how we are using the languages. When your not speaking in your native language and using an action that drives the game forward, make use of it.

Also we use them as Forks and linked test.

[Sempiternity]

Mordaith -

Oh, it's just "roll when failure would be interesting"! :D Thanks - i like that. It makes sense, seems like fun, and has a low footprint.

(And i think the converse of that is fun, too - "roll when success would give you an advantage / drive story in your direction" - for characters actually skilled at a language.)


If anyone else has other ideas or comments, though, i'd still like to hear them!

[Saphim]

What kind of conflict do you expect from this? To me it seems like the good conflicts mainly happen between people who can at least insult each other in a common language and even more so when they are able to really talk with each other.
I could see a conflict happening when you have to secure the help of some kind of translator who is unwilling to cooperate with you for some reason or another.

[Mordaith]

By using the idea that just because you fail the roll you don't fail the action, you can have lots of fun with Languages. I mean who wants to watch a 10 minute montage of someone learning a new language. Wait ok so it was cool in 13th warrior, but in a table top game, maybe not so much.

I find that Language skills work best as complication results rather than failure results. But let's be honest here. Complications are always more entertaining.

[Sempiternity]

Mordaith -

Oh yes, completely. Interesting failures = complications. Terminal failures are boring! The game should always be able to go somewhere, if it is worth a roll.

Saphim -

I'm assuming that you can Beginner's Luck a Language Skill, and thus narrate that as some degree of communication. I'm not dealing in my setting with cultures that are unaware of one-another, so i think it makes enough sense to back up the drama, at least! :)

And that untrustworthy translator conflict does sound like fun...

[Saphim]

This seems to be a sensible way of handling it. I am looking forward to some AP reports!