Obfuscate and Avoid the Topic

[pseudoidiot]

I hope I'm not the only one, but I always have a really hard time with these two actions in a DoW. I just can't think of anything that I think fits the bill for either one.

I always really want to use one of these, but I always end up unable to think of anything and I just go with some other action.

So, I'm hoping to get a discussion going and hopefully work through some examples and tips to help me (and hopefully others) be able to use these in play.

I don't know if an example situation will help, but I'll include one (actual DoW from last BW session):

Quick background -- my character (Dwarf) has an oath about protecting his (worthless) brother. Brother resents being looked after and rebels a lot to try and show his independence. So, in the DoW, he wanted to run off to some human settlement (he's fascinated by humans, I dislike them a lot), and I want him to stay.

I ended up winning (barely) with a point about humans not being worth our time and a Dismiss, "I'm the Eldest, YOU'LL DO WHAT I SAY!" (I love Stentorious Debate). I really wanted to mix things up a bit, but fell short when I couldn't think of anything to say for an Avoid the Topic or an Obfuscate.

[xenomouse]

I hope I'm not the only one, but I always have a really hard time with these two actions in a DoW. I just can't think of anything that I think fits the bill for either one.

I always really want to use one of these, but I always end up unable to think of anything and I just go with some other action.

So, I'm hoping to get a discussion going and hopefully work through some examples and tips to help me (and hopefully others) be able to use these in play.

I don't know if an example situation will help, but I'll include one (actual DoW from last BW session):

Quick background -- my character (Dwarf) has an oath about protecting his (worthless) brother. Brother resents being looked after and rebels a lot to try and show his independence. So, in the DoW, he wanted to run off to some human settlement (he's fascinated by humans, I dislike them a lot), and I want him to stay.

I ended up winning (barely) with a point about humans not being worth our time and a Dismiss, "I'm the Eldest, YOU'LL DO WHAT I SAY!" (I love Stentorious Debate). I really wanted to mix things up a bit, but fell short when I couldn't think of anything to say for an Avoid the Topic or an Obfuscate.

Avoid the Topic = talk about something completely unrelated; non sequitur; digression. e.g. - "Say, did you notice the weather today?"

Obfuscation = try to relate some complete nonsense to the topic at hand. e.g. - "Humans are primates, and monkeys are primates too. Would you like to have monkeys throw there poo at you all day long? Then why do you want to do so with humans?!" (see Democratic primary debates for details)

Or that's how I use them.

[pseudoidiot]

Thanks for the examples!

I think the biggest part of my problem is that I don't think I could ever use those tactics in any kind of actual debate. That is, I'd have a hard time not staying on topic.

But your examples certainly helped my understanding. Especially when it comes to the difference between the two, which I didn't even address in the first post.

[Verrain]

For digressions that make sense with your brothers, bring up the past. "Remember when we were kids playing at our father's forge? I just want things to be like that again." Has nothing to do with the argument at hand but sounds like it does, doesn't it?

[Fuseboy]

Yes, that's the key thing to a good topic change, it doesn't seem like one.

[David Artman]

- "Humans are primates, and monkeys are primates too. Would you like to have monkeys throw there poo at you all day long? Then why do you want to do so with humans?!"
See also The Chewbacca Defense (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewbacca_defense).

[jchokey]

Thanks for the examples!

I think the biggest part of my problem is that I don't think I could ever use those tactics in any kind of actual debate. That is, I'd have a hard time not staying on topic.

As others have said, the idea is that you're presenting your 'avoid the topic' as something that *is* relevant to the debate. In fact, the *avoider* may even genuinely believe that what s/he's saying is relevant. The trick is that the avoider seeks to make the audience think that what he's saying (despite it being off the topic in a very limited sense) is ultimately the *real* issue (or at least more interesting), and lose track of the other person's points.

You can see this sort of thing all the time in political discourse (congressional hearings, political debates etc.) Also I see it here on the forums all the time. :)

If you'd like to see some brilliant examples of "DoWs" using these techniques, watch a few episodes of the old British comedy (from the late 70s/early 80s), "Yes, Minister". The main story of the show is that of the ongoing conflict between politician Jim Hacker (who is a government minister, in charge of the Department of Administrative Affairs) and the obstructionist civil servant, Sir Humphrey Applebee. In pretty much every episode, Hacker and Applebee get into a 2-3 arguments (DOWs) about something, and Applebee is the most masterful avoider and obfuscationist you can imagine.

[pseudoidiot]

As others have said, the idea is that you're presenting your 'avoid the topic' as something that *is* relevant to the debate. In fact, the *avoider* may even genuinely that what s/he's saying is relevant. The trick is that the avoider seeks to make the audience think that what he's saying (despite it being off the topic in a very limited sense) is ultimately the *real* issue (or at least more interesting), and lose track of the other person's points.

Hm, so taking a crack at this... The real issue was my brother wanting to go to a human city, and me not wanting him to. So, as an avoid, perhaps I could have said something like, "You're only arguing because you're so tired of living in my shadow!" It's certainly related, but it's not directly relevant to the immediate issue.

[EarthenForge]

Nice one!

[quixoteles]

I just watched Anthony Anderson on the this week Law and Order. During an internal affair investigation, while a lawyer was giving a rebuttal he put his fingers to his lips and shushed him. Obfuscate. Sometimes it's not all about topics, Your characters has deadly body language to use at his disposal to compel an audience with a confident aura. Being mugged (An unavoidable battle of wills that may lead to a life and death confrontation) is very much a duel of wits, but not a lot of talking occurs, it is a lot of ugly looks, cagey evasions and non-sequiturs.

Every teen I know has mastered the most powerful avoid the topic in the book: look bored. Nothing looks worse while judging an argument as seeing the opposing side uncompelled by the other argument. Boredom, wether or not it is actually authentic, is deadly to enthusiasm which is what the point of a duel of wits is, getting everyone else swept up in your ideas.

[ThisIsVictor]

Short example: I was running a DOWs with a PC arguing about something with his girlfriend. Before the DOWs started, it had been narrated that they were bed. For an Avoid the Topic I said "She has sex with you."

--Victor

[EarthenForge]

Your characters has deadly body language to use at his disposal to compel an audience with a confident aura...

Good point. I used a character like that once by making a throat-slitting motion across his neck. It stalled the argument for a moment quite effectively.

[Trithemius]

If you'd like to see some brilliant examples of "DoWs" using these techniques, watch a few episodes of the old British comedy (from the late 70s/early 80s), "Yes, Minister". The main story of the show is that of the ongoing conflict between politician Jim Hacker (who is a government minister, in charge of the Department of Administrative Affairs) and the obstructionist civil servant, Sir Humphrey Applebee. In pretty much every episode, Hacker and Applebee get into a 2-3 arguments (DOWs) about something, and Applebee is the most masterful avoider and obfuscationist you can imagine.

There is also 'Yes, Prime Minister' which continues the relationship once Hacker becomes Chief Executive Official of the Commune...

Sir Humphrey made me want to become a public servant.

(This could be an example of Obfuscation...)

[pants10]

I never had too much issue trouble

The way I interprate it is that avoid just avoids where obfuscate directly distracts them.

the book discribes it as speaking WHILE they talk, so I have used addressing something in a demanding fassion to confuse them. You know, say something that kinda stops them flat to think about it for a second

example: discussing going to war as in the book's example

Elf: Going to war is important for eve... (is cut off)

Dwarf: But elves smell like insense and other strange smells and how do you expect use to take such a smell when around you people?


Its not quite "how is the weather?" but it is not really on topic and has to cause the other person to pause their point and answer or think about it.