Rating Miracles?

[jhkim]

In our session yesterday, a question came up about Minor Miracle.

The situation was that a recurring NPC ally of ours (Duglan) was shot with a crossbow and took a mortal wound, and had no Persona points left for the Will to Live. We had three characters with Faith (two PC plus one NPC) down the street from this who saw this happen. Maban (David's PC) immediately prayed that he lived, with Judyn (my PC) and Olrau (an NPC) helping for a total of 10 dice. She succeeded in a Minor Miracle (Obstacle 5).

From p233, Minor Miracle says "When it is dark, we pray for light; when sorcerers chant, we pray their spells be broken; when the blade is snapped, we pray that it be made whole; when blood ebbs from the wound, we pray that it be closed."

David wanted the miracle to be that crossbow bolt had actually only grazed him, in truth doing superficial damage though it looked like he had been killed. The reasoning was that no one had seen close up what the bolt had done, so the wound was actually not mortal. That seemed too powerful to me for an already-resolved roll. The description is that wounds can be closed, but that suggests that having wounds not be there at all would be higher. Actually, now that I look at it, this seems to more closely fit the description for Intercession (Ob 8) -- "A priest is about to be shot down by an assassin, but the murderer's bow string snaps! Huzzah!" -- but even then the intercession is before the arrow passes through the priests' body.

More generally, how do you rate what is a Minor Miracle (Ob 5) versus an Intercession (Ob 8) versus a Miracle (Ob 10)?

[Maedhros]

Why not rule that the Miracle is that "he lives" (i.e. it takes the place of spending Artha on Will to Live)...

[luke]

Hi John,

I'm in line with your thoughts on this. The Minor Miracle can't change the fait accompli. We typically allow the MM to count for a successful treatment test -- stops blood, ensures survival. But allowing it to count for the persona point for Will to Live is a valid use, too!

Mortal Wounds are brutal to recover from.

-L

[jchokey]

Damn... I forgot about intercession. That probably would have been more accurate of a target obstacle. At this point, Duglan's having been merely grazed has been established, so I'm not going to reverse that...

But moving forward, I think that this Luke's interepretation of just using MM for healing/treatment (or along it to grant "The Will to Live" in the absence of a persona point) is the better way to go. We can discuss at next session.

I guess this is good news on for Kalrun (a PC who *also* took a Mortal Wound last session... damn, crossbows are deadly!), however, in so far as the PCs may be better able to meet muster the Target obstacle of 5 on a faith roll to achieve a minor miracle for treatment than the Target Obstacle of 10 for Herbalism or have an NPC surgeon meet a target Obstacle of 7 for Surgery.

[jchokey]

Mortal Wounds are brutal to recover from.

Yeah, but that is as it should be.

Just curious though, would a Major Miracle (not minor, but major) be appropriate for effecting a miraculous recovery from a mortal wound in a short period of time? [Actually, that's not mere curiosity. As I noted in my last post, this directly affects a PC in the game. I'm now wondering whether praying for a Major Miracle to hasten Kalrun's recovery might be the PCs best options to get him back in action quickly.]

[Kublai]

A major miracle would make those boo-boos disappear instantaneously, should you wish!

[jhkim]

I'm in line with your thoughts on this. The Minor Miracle can't change the fait accompli. We typically allow the MM to count for a successful treatment test -- stops blood, ensures survival. But allowing it to count for the persona point for Will to Live is a valid use, too!
OK, so we're agreement on that specific case. The more general question is what can be done with a Minor Miracle compared to Intercession, and what can be done with Intercession compared to Miracle. For example, in the past of our game, I've used Minor Miracle to have thugs who were running away find the doors they wanted to escape through, that they thought were open were actually locked. That seemed reasonable to me.

But to take a particular case, we had two Mortal Wounds last session -- first an NPC and then a PC.

It seems like Faith is commonly be used in conjunction with healing, so it could be good to have some rules of thumb for what these can do for wounds. The PC had a Persona point for Will to Live, but he's still going to be out for months. We've established that a Minor Miracle could count as a successful treatment -- but perhaps only counts as one success (?). Suppose we manage an Intercession from him. The rule of thumb from the example seems to be that Intercession could temporarily stop but not kill an enemy, or block a deadly attack that is about to be made. Perhaps Intercession could immediately shift a wound 2 steps less? Perhaps Miracle could shift it 4 steps, or just make a person completely whole.

[jchokey]

The rule of thumb from the example seems to be that Intercession could temporarily stop but not kill an enemy, or block a deadly attack that is about to be made. Perhaps Intercession could immediately shift a wound 2 steps less? Perhaps Miracle could shift it 4 steps, or just make a person completely whole.

The Faith rules specify that, when successful, Faith rolls give *complete* success, and never partial degrees of success. (I don't have the rules in front of me and can't quote from them, but I believe this is on the page right after the listing of obstacles for different type of faith actions. It says something to the effect of, "When rot is driven out-- it's completely gone-- all of it!")

To apply this to the treatment/healing/prevention of injuries, it would seem that Faith shouldn't enable an injury to be "only partly healed" (e.g. reduced by two degrees) or the effect of a blow to be merely "reduced in severity" (e.g. reduced from mortal to severe)... but rather that is an all or nothing deal. In other words: If it's a midi (or severe) injury, a minor miracle can fix it-- completely. But for a traumatic/mortal wound... you need a major miracle to fix it... a minor miracle can't be used to just reduce it.

This does not mean that it would not be fruitful to distinguish between 'levels' of what, say, Miracle and Minor Miracle could do in this regard. For example, I think the idea that a minor miracle could stop bloodloss or immediately heal anything midi (or severe?) or less seems reasonable. While major miracle, I think, if successful, ought to be able to completely heal any injury (as Kublai suggests).

[Iskander]

If y'ask me, look to the meanings of the words. A miracle is a fucking miracle. From water to wine, loaves and fishes, healing the halt and lame, curing lepers, walking on water all the way to raising the dead.

An intercession involves the divine coming between you and something (or thing A and thing B). So keeping from death, sure. But not raising.

[jchokey]

If y'ask me, look to the meanings of the words. A miracle is a fucking miracle. From water to wine, loaves and fishes, healing the halt and lame, curing lepers, walking on water all the way to raising the dead..

Yeah, but the words of the rules distinguish between *minor* and *major* miracles. The question then becomes, in the context of John's specific query, what's the difference between the two in the healing realm?

It's a no-brainer that raising the dead ought to be major.... but what about having someone who has suffered a traumatic or mortal wound, but is still alive? Is that a *minor* miracle? Or a *major* one? Does it just depend on the context of the world/environment?

[jhkim]

The Faith rules specify that, when successful, Faith rolls give *complete* success, and never partial degrees of success. (I don't have the rules in front of me and can't quote from them, but I believe this is on the page right after the listing of obstacles for different type of faith actions. It says something to the effect of, "When rot is driven out-- it's completely gone-- all of it!")

To apply this to the treatment/healing/prevention of injuries, it would seem that Faith shouldn't enable an injury to be "only partly healed" (e.g. reduced by two degrees) or the effect of a blow to be merely "reduced in severity" (e.g. reduced from mortal to severe)... but rather that is an all or nothing deal. In other words: If it's a midi (or severe) injury, a minor miracle can fix it-- completely. But for a traumatic/mortal wound... you need a major miracle to fix it... a minor miracle can't be used to just reduce it.
Well, but this principle contradicts the prior suggestion that I thought you agreed with -- i.e. Minor Miracle could help with a Mortal Wound by closing the wound (counting as Will to Live and/or a successful treatment roll), but couldn't eliminate it. Actually, it's in the description of Minor Miracle (noted above) that it can close a wound.

[jchokey]

Well, but this principle contradicts the prior suggestion that I thought you agreed with -- i.e. Minor Miracle could help with a Mortal Wound by closing the wound (counting as Will to Live and/or a successful treatment roll), but couldn't eliminate it. .

Does it? I guess I would distinguish between stopping a wound from bleeding ('closing a wound') and actually causing the underlying injury to vanish altogether.

To apply the "what faith does, it does completely" principle to that: A minor miracle intended to close an open wound (of any level-- even a mortal wound) stops the blood and seals the wound-- completely. It doesn't just slow it down so that the person bleeds to death in 20 hours rather than 2. That wound is closed-- period. That doesn't mean the underlying wound itself necessarily goes away... that's something slightly different.

Similarly, a miracle (minor or otherwise) intended to *heal* a wound *heals* it compeltely. It doesn't just reduce it from a 4D wound to a 2D wound. It cures it completely. If the GM/group think a complete healing of a 4D wound or a mortal wound is too much for a minor miracle... then you've got to pray for a major one to *heal* it. You can't pray for one minor miracle to reduce it to a 2D wound only.

So, with that distinction in place, I don't think there's a contradiction there.

That said, I suppose there *could* be a potential contradiction inherent in the rule that whatever faith does, it does *completely*, with the principle that success brings intent. For example, what if a priest wants someone, say, to be healed only partially. [I'm thinking of the example, say, of an Agrikan priest seeking to prevent a torture victim from dying too early, and praying for the victim to be healed 'just a bit' so he could be tortured a bit longer... but not so well that he could make a credible escape attempt.] Which should triumph then-- the principle of Faith doing what it does completely? Or the principle of intent?