Can Priests of Different Gods Help with Faith?

[jchokey]

Let's say you're playing in an RPG setting (e.g. Harn) where religion is henotheistic: multiple gods exist and are worshipped, but each person devotes him/herself to the worship of only one god. Similarly, each priest serves only one god-- and those gods are not always best friends with each other. Some are openly hostile. Can priests of different faiths help each other on Faith in spite of that, provided that they share the same intent on a the specific task at hand?

Let me give an example that hasn't yet happened in my Harnic campaign, but which conceivably could. Let's say a priestesss of Ilvir (a strange, nearly forgotten god associated with snakes, monstrous beasts and art/craft) is praying for her Ilvir to "Hinder" an enemy (per the faith rules). A priest of Agrik (a god of violence, war, disease, and fire) happens to be with her at the time and also would like to see that enemy hindered. They are priests of different gods-- and gods who are (in Harnic mythology at least) on somewhat suspcious terms with each other. Their churches don't get along well either.

Still, if the same *intent*is possessed by both the Ilviran priestess and the Agrikan priest on the Hinder test, should the Agrikan priest be able to help the Ilviran priestess on that Faith roll?

[Thor Olavsrud]

That's up to the GM (or group) to decide.

In my game, the answer would be no. I would allow it in a polytheistic setting in which the faithful were devotees of gods from the same pantheon.

[jchokey]

Hey Thor-- thanks for the interepretation. That was my sense too.

For the current campaign I'm running in Harn, which is relgiously themed, I think it makes sense for such help *not* to be allowed for priests of different gods.

(Sorry for the delayed thanks.)

[Saphim]

Why not allow it? Thinking about it, it has a rather nice touch to it, otoh characters can overcome prejudices and help each other, on the other hand, nothing stops a zealous believer to not accept the helping die of some heathen.

[Thor Olavsrud]

Why not allow it? Thinking about it, it has a rather nice touch to it, otoh characters can overcome prejudices and help each other, on the other hand, nothing stops a zealous believer to not accept the helping die of some heathen.

Because it creates an interesting limitation. The other character could certainly help with a linked Ritual test though!

[stormsweeper]

Why not allow it? Thinking about it, it has a rather nice touch to it, otoh characters can overcome prejudices and help each other, on the other hand, nothing stops a zealous believer to not accept the helping die of some heathen.

If I was a god, I wouldn't want my worshipers helping out guys who worship that dick who cut me off in traffic.

[Jaroslav]

Perhaps there could be a penalty of some kind, for the player making the test, or possibly for both players. I've never played a BW game where faith was used, so I'm not sure how the mechanics would go, but, it seems to me that, if you were of one faith and accepted help from someone of another faith, it should shake the foundations of your belief. That might be cool enough that it would be worth allowing.

[wanderer]

Why not allow it? Thinking about it, it has a rather nice touch to it, otoh characters can overcome prejudices and help each other, on the other hand, nothing stops a zealous believer to not accept the helping die of some heathen.
If the gods of Harn are anything like those of Greek mythology or even the Forgotten Realms, I don't see their respective priests working together. The clergy are not just adherents to a system of beliefs, they are advocates for a divine being with its own feelings, prejudices, and agendas. I don't see priests being open-minded and helping one another, even simply out of fear of retribution.

[jhkim]

If the gods of Harn are anything like those of Greek mythology or even the Forgotten Realms, I don't see their respective priests working together. The clergy are not just adherents to a system of beliefs, they are advocates for a divine being with its own feelings, prejudices, and agendas. I don't see priests being open-minded and helping one another, even simply out of fear of retribution.
Well, it's a bit of an open question exactly how related they are. However, the ten gods of Harn aren't entirely opposed. The triad of Peoni, Larani, and Save-K'norr are related and are generally friendly with each other. Similarly, Agrik, Halea, and Morgath have a relation -- though Morgath is often shunned. There are other relations as well. The warlike god Agrik has eight demons as his servants which were created by Ilvir, the monstrous brooder -- similar to how Zeus' lightning bolts were created by Hephaestus.

In particular, a case that came up in the game would be an Agrikan priestess of the Order of Eight Demons helping work a miracle with an Ilviran priest.

I can see the argument that they can't help each other on Faith rolls -- but the explanation that the gods don't want to work together doesn't really work.

[wanderer]

Thanks for the clarification, John. I've never experienced the Harn setting so my suggestion was based off some other models. In his original post, however, J said that Agrik and Ilvir were divided as were their followers, but you're conveying what sounds like a closer, if still complicated relationship. If a person in the Harn setting commits himself to one god and one god only I would also think that the gods themselves are particular about the devotion of their worshipers, and would hardly be interested in offering help to one of another faith. Not very polytheistic (as Thor mentioned).

What I was getting at with my above post was that in game, this issue is not simply about a priest being open to or recognizing the tenets of another faith. Religion in roleplaying games are tangible things that have powerful beings as agents behind them.

By the way, will us fans ever see a write-up of your Burning Wheel experiences on your website?

[jchokey]

Well, it's a bit of an open question exactly how related they are.

It also depends on how you define "related". Human worship of the ten 'major' gods arose in different times and places and among different cultures spanning a continent the sice of Eurasia. The current "pantheon" is something of a syncretic construction. There are myths (in Harn) linking some of the gods to each other, but not all. The best way to think of it, actually, is probably to consider it a kind as a kind of 'creole' pantheon that emerged as a mixture of multiple religious traditions of different peoples.

However, the ten gods of Harn aren't entirely opposed.

This gets into some tricky meta-questions, such as whether the 'gods' are opposed in themselves, or whether humans simply believe this is the case-- and whether either of those actually matters in terms of the rules.

But certainly, it's true that some of the gods are perceived as being 'allied', while others are considered (by their followers) as being hostile to each other. Agrik and Larani are, for instance, perceived of as being extremely hostile.

There's also a foundational assumption in the bacground religious materials that a kind of 'war of all against all' was the original state of the primal cosmos-- but as that went on, it threatened destroy the entire universe, including the gods themselves, so they effected a truce, the "Concordat of the Illimitable Tome", which they all agreed to. That truce is currently in place, but it is fragile. Some gods, it is believed, are eager to preserve that truce; others are indifferent to it. Some, it is believed, eagerly await the day when it will end...


The triad of Peoni, Larani, and Save-K'norr are related and are generally friendly with each other.

All three do generally seek to preserve the concordat (or so it's believed) and there is an actual birth relation between Peoni and Larani. (Peoni is Larani's mother.) And they all did arise in-- more or less, the same time and place. But, a fact that is often forgotten in some Harn-fan discussions is that, at least in canon publications, Save-K'nor is the Arbiter of the Concordat and keeper of the Illimitable Tome, and as such, he is actually regarded as being neutral towards the disputes of other gods.

I think the tendency to want to link Peoni, Larani, and Save-K'nor is just Dumezilian reductionism creeping in. :)

[jchokey]

In his original post, however, J said that Agrik and Ilvir were divided as were their followers, but you're conveying what sounds like a closer, if still complicated relationship.

Complicated yes, but not necessarily closer. The first thing Agrik did after Ilvir created the Eight Demons (known as V'hir) for him, was to order to them to kill Ilvir! :-)

Of course, Ilvir was smart enough to know that Agrik would try something exactly like that. He created the V'hir so that they were completely loyal to Agrik except they had two limitations-- they would never harm their creator (i.e. Ilvir), and at Ilvir's command, they would be destroyed.

At least, that's what the poetic/syncretic mythology of Harn recounts. Not all Agrikans or Ilvirans accept that story. Moreover, the places where Ilvir is worshipped in great numbers are different than those where Agrikan worship is significant.

Among human followers, the main connection between the faiths is that the chronically poor and disorganized Ilviran church helps to provide strange monsters (creatures of Ilvir) to the Agrikans for slaughter in their gladiatorial games. Some Ilvirans, though, are violently opposed to this practice.

As you said... it's complicated!

[Saphim]

If the gods of Harn are anything like those of Greek mythology or even the Forgotten Realms, I don't see their respective priests working together. The clergy are not just adherents to a system of beliefs, they are advocates for a divine being with its own feelings, prejudices, and agendas. I don't see priests being open-minded and helping one another, even simply out of fear of retribution.
I think that should be decided in play instead of gm fiated into the setting.

[wanderer]

I think that should be decided in play instead of gm fiated into the setting.
I wouldn't call that setting detail GM fiat but that's still a good suggestion.