Well-greaved Achaeans and the new armor rules

[rafial]

So I'm curious if those who are familiar with the current state of the new armor rules can comment on how they would play out with respect to the classical Greek habit of going into battle nekkid except for a helmet and shin guards. I've picked up something like this for the Theban Empire troops in my bronze age inspired Tarshish campaign, who are equipped with leggings and and helmet, but no armor on the torso.

Now, under the current armor rules, this works just great, as they get benefit of their armor against somebody just flailing away against them, but anyone willing to pay the called shot cost (+1 Ob) can try to strike the torso.

But last I saw of the new armor rules, armor only counted on the location hit, and all "non-called" shot were a hit on the torso. That's a bum deal for the guys in greaves.

Any comments from those in the know?

[Kublai]

To answer the question, we must first understand why they didn't wear armor on the torso. Did they have a fighting-style that helped shield them? Were they superbly-trained and could block and parry any attacks with their weapon skill alone?

As of now, they would be toast in BW combat, even in the current rules. I don't recall a penalty for doing a called shot to the torso, just the extremities. A free called shot, if you will.

[Drozdal]

classical Greek habit of going into battle nekkid except for a helmet and shin guards
AFAIR they also carried big-ass shields.

New armor rules on shields: Shields add dice to Block and the defense half of the Counter moves. Also, characters with Shield Training may use them to perform the Block and Strike action.
So combination of shields and armored exposed body parts (legs and head) should work just fine, remeber that greeks fought in formations - that means wall of shields in front of them :).

Drozdal

[rafial]

As of now, they would be toast in BW combat, even in the current rules. I don't recall a penalty for doing a called shot to the torso, just the extremities. A free called shot, if you will.

Err well, under the current armor rules as I read them, if you don't declare a called shot, then the target gets to roll all his or her armor dice. So under the current system, wearing nothing but a helmet still helps against unaimed strikes. I always interpreted this as the luxury of not having to guard your armored parts so carefully, so you could focus more on blocking/not getting hit in your unarmored locations.

[rafial]

New armor rules on shields: Shields add dice to Block and the defense half of the Counter moves. Also, characters with Shield Training may use them to perform the Block and Strike action.


Okay great, but if the block dice succeed, then you caught it on the shield, and armor doesn't matter, and if your block dice fail, and the opponent wasn't making a called strike to the legs or head (thus hitting your armor), then if I understand the new rules, the opponent will be assumed to strike the torso, thus making the armored head and leg pointless.

[luke]

i've always wondered about these guys as well. what the hell was their deal?

Well, there must have been some practical significance to what they did. Ritual was more often born of some real life exigency. (Yes, I consider going to battle so adorned to be something of a ritual).

So what was going on?

First and foremost, it is quite obvious to me that they were using ROS' grittier hit location chart to determine how and where blows impacted with the target.

Foregoing that level of grit in BW, we are left to come up with our own mechanical explanation.

What are they wearing? Bronze helmet, bronze shin guards (forgive my modern day nomenclenture) and a big ass bronze shield. They fought with short chopping and thrusting swords, if I am not mistaken.

In their day, armies did indeed wear armor; not everyone went about on the battlefield like this.

Also, note that the weapons were of relatively soft metal -- not hardened flexible steel, but bronze. These weapons have no VA.


So what's going? Well, armor must have been damned hot in their climate -- fighting during summer must have been a ball-breaker. Soldiers from tropical climes seem to traditionally wear less heavy garb (so they didn't die from heat exhaustion).

So enforcing heat exhaustion/fatigue penalties for those in heavy harness might be something you want to think about.

But what about getting hit? Well, those bronze shields must have been pretty imposing -- and fairly decent at deflecting incoming blows. From what I remember, they covered nearly the entire body.

So we have a couple of options for rules tweaks for your Thebans: The easiest is that Theban Shields count as armor -- 4D for the let side, 3D chest/center, 2D for the right side, 1D (helping) to the head and lower legs.

Or you could port over the ROS hit locations.

Or you could keep the rules the same, count Theban Shields as 4D shields, and enforce the Telegraphing rule (as described in the Combat notes section). This would give these soldiers a pretty good chance to Block most any attack coming their way. Especially if most weapons have no VA.

Just brainstorming. I'm sure there are other ways to represent this without abandoning the game.
-L

[Manicrack]

abzu, you're forgetting that also a bronze armor doesn't help much.
it is very, well, soft.
Since they were mostly using bronze in that time an armor didn't give much protection.
A thrusting attack, and you got a nice hole in armor and body.
So, my guess is, that that is why they do not waer much armor. It wasn't worth the effort.
A shield on the other hand can deflect blows and make them slide off.
so I agree, most defensive measures are from the shield and dodging I guess.

-Crack

[Drozdal]

I've found those notes in Osprey book Elite 007 - Ancient Greeks:

At the turn of 5th century the Greek battlefield was dominated by hoplite, a fully armoured spearman whose main defence was his round bronze shield.

Around the middle of 5th century (B.C.) the Lakedaimoninians also lightentened equipment of their hoplites (following Spartans example). Greaves and cuirass (breastplate) were discarded and the closed Corinthian helmet was replaced by the open-faced "pilos-helmet"
Unfortuneatly I will have to look closer and check what made them discard armor, IMHO as Abzu said before - that was because of climate and body exhaustion due to heat..
Now some notes about weapons (in Late 5th century B.C.)

...The idea behind the short sword (less than a foot long with triangular-shaped blade) seems to have been that it could be used for underarm thrusts,and was handlier than than long-bladed sword in close fighting of the phanlax.
Shield seemed like most important part of every soldier equipment,. They were designed with a special arm-holes and straps - that prevented dropping the shield under all circumstances.

I hope that will help.

Drozdal

[rafial]

First and foremost, it is quite obvious to me that they were using ROS' grittier hit location chart to determine how and where blows impacted with the target.

ROS doesn't actually change things much, since again you can just strike at the chest over and over again.



Also, note that the weapons were of relatively soft metal -- not hardened flexible steel, but bronze. These weapons have no VA.


As an aside, I've been pondering about how to handle bronze weapons. So far I've just made the blanket assumption that the lesser effectiveness of the weapons is balanced out by the lesser effectiveness of the armor, and so kept everything the same. For flavor, I call standard weapons bronze, superior quality weapons iron, and of course the dwarves have the secret of steel to produce their gear.



So we have a couple of options for rules tweaks for your Thebans: The easiest is that Theban Shields count as armor -- 4D for the let side, 3D chest/center, 2D for the right side, 1D (helping) to the head and lower legs.


This is not a bad idea. Using the shield in the manner could be assumed in to the Theban version of Shield training.



Or you could keep the rules the same, count Theban Shields as 4D shields, and enforce the Telegraphing rule (as described in the Combat notes section).

Melee modifiers and Notes actually (I had to look). The section entitled Combat Notes seems to be strategy tips (and all that stuff about weapon length) ;)

Telegraphing doesn't seem to apply as written, because it makes blocking called shots easier, and what I'm worried about here is uncalled shots. However you could just flip the rule and say for the Theban fighting style, it's the uncalled (torso) strikes that get the penalty.

I'm also attached to my notion of letting the defender say where uncalled strikes hit.



Just brainstorming. I'm sure there are other ways to represent this without abandoning the game.


Doubtless. I don't plan to start using the new armor rules till revised/annual shows up anyway :)

[Kublai]

I am iffy on the idea of a special Shield Training rule that allows shields to be counted as armor. You wouldn't be able to use them to add block dice anymore, I would think.

I think a warrior of this type would have to really count on the Block and Strike rule to survive a battle. It all comes down to his skill and not his armor.

I don't like the idea of trying to strengthen an obvious weakness. Fact - these soldiers wore no armor on their torso. They depend on their shields to block any strikes. If someone gets past their big-ass shield, they should be cut.

To reflect survivability, perhaps bronze weapons should have less Power than Iron and Steel. Maybe a Bronze sword should be Power 2, with no VA, Add of 2, and Slow? Since their lethality is reduced, the need for armor is reduced as well.

[Mechavomit]

ROS doesn't actually change things much, since again you can just strike at the chest over and over again.

Right, but the shields automatically protect certain zones, and a shield like you've described would automatically cover the chest. So if you aimed at the chest over and over, you'd automatically hit the shield, block successes not withstanding. That's why you have the maneuver "duck and weave" to get past the shield, in RoS.

[rafial]

I don't like the idea of trying to strengthen an obvious weakness. Fact - these soldiers wore no armor on their torso. They depend on their shields to block any strikes. If someone gets past their big-ass shield, they should be cut.


I mostly agree, but it does seem like the armor the did have (helmet and shin guards) did have a function in real life as it protected the parts of you that stuck out around the shield. The abstraction of the old armor rules let this kind of thing function mechanically in the game, but it seems to get lost in the new armor rules. So I'm just trying to think of ideas on how to not lose the point of the armor while doing minimum violence to the rule framework as it stands.

The more I think about it, I wonder if I shouldn't bite the bullet and come up with a simple random hit location chart for use with uncalled strikes.

[rafial]

Right, but the shields automatically protect certain zones, and a shield like you've described would automatically cover the chest.

Ah, thanks for the clarification, now that I think about nobody in the ROS campaign I played in had a fighting style that involved a shield, so I hadn't seen how they worked.

[Kublai]

To encourage people to go for body parts other than the torso, there is talk of having special Hesitation effects to go along with each location. For instance, a shot to the head would increase the Steel Obstacle by one. Or a shot to the weapon arm might call for a Agility test to hold onto the weapon. Hesitation from shots to the leg might call for an automatic fall down.

Just thoughts.

I do see what your saying, btw, rafial. With the new rules, there is no more "General Coverage."

[luke]

wait, why not just let a shield count as old-style general armor dice when used with Theban Training?

Called shots could use the values I proposed earlier.

-L

[Kublai]

Would that general armor dice be instead of blocking dice or in addition to?

[Donny D.]

I believe that the Greek soldiers had to also be rich enough to purchase their own armor (which was very expensive). If that is the case perhaps as the richer soldiers died in battle they had to begin 'drafting' less well to do soldiers who would have to wear less armor. Just a thought. But in real life I would think less armor = dead soldiers (of course I'm sure they were very good with their shields.)

[Ubby]

Personally I think adapting the shield to an armor value is more relavent in this case. I just saw on the History Channel a discussion that hoplites' shields would come up to just under their eyes, and down to the knees. The key was the phalanx formation where they interlocked their shields with the guy next to him like a snake's scales. When they did this, all you could see was helmet, shield, & grieves. They would then stab over hand with a spear.

IMHO, shield training is all about knowing how to maneuver a shield for maximum protection, without letting its momentum work against you. It doesn't sound like hoplites maneuvered their shields at all, making it more like armor (or cover). I can't imagine a hoplite not wearing anything if he thought he would have to maneuver outside the phalanx. Of course I can't imagine running around naked on a battlefield trying to stab someone with a spear, so what do I know? :wink:

[elgorade]

I don't think you can figure out the shields/armor issue w/o also looking at how they fought. It wasn't individual guys going into battle with just a shield and helmet. It was relatively close packed masses. If memory serves me, at least some historians feel the individuals were pretty safe in a pushing shoving scrum affair until someone fell or tried to run. Then the formation started to disolve.

So, maybe the Thebians don't get any special effect from Shield Training, but do have a Formation Fighting Training. Just off the top of my head, maybe it is extra automatic blocking dice from your neightbors. Then the individual Thebian fighting someone with equal skill but also wearing armor, it at a disadvantage. But pair him with a few of his mates and his effective skill goes up. At least till you can flank the formation, trip someone, or break their morale.

To fully makes sense, that idea still needs some reinforcement about why they didn't wear armor as well as fighting in formation. But going back to the same picture of hoplite combat as a rugby scrum with weapons, exhaustion (as mentioned) and perhaps reduced agility. The rules don't give any penalty to avoid tripping for wearing armor, but it doesn't seem unreasonable. And if your main fear is that by tripping (being pushed) out of position your formation cracks, maybe you'll take the risk of a rare shot getting through your (relatively high) shield block.

Of course, all that is a lot to hang on my memory of a history article I read many years ago in college. :-)

Elgorade