Sorcery and its limitations

[Charlie]

I didn't think that this quite fit in the magic burner, so I put it here. If necessary, I can start a separate thread there. I just figured that since I want to talk about the magic rules as a wider whole, rather than how they relate specifically to the MagBu, it would be more fitting here.

Okay...

So a friend of mine that I have been gaming with (mostly DND in its various incarnations) for the past 10+ years and I were discussing BW Sorcery, and how it has fit into the two or three short BW campaigns that I've run.

His main gripes are that spells are VERY difficult to learn and take a VERY long time to study. Also, the rps costs are high enough where a starting 'wizard' character may only have 3-5 spells, if that (and that is even a generous estimate, it seems). I think most of his concerns are fairly well-founded.

This leads me to believe that it is very difficult to actually have an iconic wizard character with what the current BW rules offer.

Now, I have read the abstraction/distillation rules, and even the Art of Sorcery rules (which are still in pretty rough form, it seems). I guess I have a few questions, though not completely about those specific systems:

Do others find it difficult to create/play an iconic, traditional RPG fantasy wizard in their BW games? If so, how do you manage it?

Are there any other adjustments to the Sorcery rules that I am aware of?

Are the Abstraction/Distillation rules satisfying to use? It seems like the process is still long, and complicated.

Does using the Art of Sorcery rules in their current form create interesting results? Is it possible to capture what I am looking for with them?

Any thoughts would be welcome!

[stormsweeper]

I don't think iconic wizards are famous for having lots of spells, other than in D&D, really. That said, it's fairly easy to have a wizard with quite a variety of spells. I've made 3 LP wizard mooks that have six spells (http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?t=4627). Characters with 4LPs could have a few more.

Art magic is a lot more flexible than standard sorcery, but it's usually smaller in scope and power, too.

[Thor]

Petronax the Hawk, my current wizard character, started with 3 LPs two years ago. Here he is as he was when created (http://www.burningwheel.org/wiki/index.php?title=Adventurous%2C_Dungeon-Delving_Wizard_-_Petronax_the_Hawk).

He started with five spells and one facet: Falcon Skin, Turn Aside the Blade, Burning Spear (http://www.burningwheel.org/wiki/index.php?title=Burning_Spear), Witch Key, Wyrd Light and the Single Target facet. He picked up a number of spells along the way: Mending and Magesense.

A couple of things I'll note: In BW, you don't need to keep upgrading to more potent spells the longer you play. My Burning Spear spell was devastating from the moment I started playing--consistently able to kill or maim opponents each time I cast it. In fact, over time I wound up with the instinct, Only Burn with Sorcery That Which Is Evil, because I, as a player, started feeling bad that I was chewing through enemies so easily.

The spell has grown with the character too. When his sorcery advanced and his Will reached B7, I thought nothing of adding a handful of Single Target Facets to the spell so I could take out handfuls of opponents at once. Alternately, I'd cast it Hastily, shortening the spell to just an action or two.

Falcon Skin, Turn Aside the Blade, and later Magesense were all consistently useful too.

In Burning Wheel, even a handful of spells are incredibly powerful.

Furthermore, I'll note that whether your friend knows it or not, he WANTS spells to be incredibly difficult to learn. You see, because of Spell Weaver (i.e., adding your Will dice to Sorcery rolls), it is very difficult to Advance Sorcery. You roll too many dice! The Readings and the Practicals are where you will get all your Difficult and Challenging tests for Advancement.

I'll also note that time is only as much of a factor as you make it. Will it take six months to learn a spell? Then take six months of downtime. Everyone else can Get a Job or Practice or Recover from their wounds. Five minutes of real time later, your six months of game time will have elapsed.

All that aside, I'll answer some of your other questions:
1. Abstraction and Distillation are extensions of the basic Sorcery rules. I created the Burning Spear spell using those rules, and the Single Target Facet I mentioned above is an aspect of them.

2. Art Sorcery is a lot of fun, but definitely has rough patches. Art Sorcerers are much more flexible than basic BW sorcerers, but they sacrifice a lot of raw power. Additionally, getting the most out of Art Sorcery demands a degree of system mastery. You'll have to put work into it, as a player, in order to really get what you want from it.

[Charlie]

Thanks for the replies, guys! The examples that you burned were especially helpful. I think we'll continue to try and run with the sorcery rules and see how it goes (as well as definitely allowing more downtime to learn spells)

Could point about the difficult tests as well, Thor. I didn't really think about that either.

One thing I did notice with the two sample characters are the lack of relationships, reputations, or affiliations. In my group, it has become a bit of a faux pas to not purchase any of these. Do you find that sorcerers are often quite lacking in these areas? Does that ever become a problem, as far as tying them into the world or what's going on?

Thanks again! :)

[Thor]

We definitely recommend relationships and such. Petronax started with a Noble affiliation (from Mark of Privilege) but that's it. But that game was explicitly set up to be a D&D-esque BW game. As such, everyone Petronax knew or cared about died prior to the beginning of play. ;)

I could have easily dropped the Single Target Facet, Witch Key, Wyrd Light or my Sustainer Matrix Staff to buy a relationship, or two of them to buy a relationship and a reputation.

All that stuff was cool, but not essential.

Although you'll note my first Belief was about building a reputation.

Stormy's character was actually a "monster," a burn of the enemy wizards we faced in one adventure. They didn't really need to be fleshed out to the same degree player characters are.

Anyway, it really depends on what you want to do with your game. Starting with relationships, affiliations and reputations adds a lot to the game. It creates a lot of setting right off the bat. But it's also possible to build that stuff in play. I have a special love for the relationships and reputations I've earned in play. They feel much more tangible to me than the stuff that I bought with points.

[Charlie]

Thanks for your insights. I've kind of always required the players to get at least something in the way of a relationship or affiliation before play, but maybe that isn't always necessary. I guess if they have a belief that ties them to someone or something else, then it wouldn't be as big of a deal.