Help a new player tweak Beliefs and Instincts!

[Drew]

Hi folks.

Its Beliefs and Instincts time for my character (http://www.burningwheel.org/wiki/index.php?title=Alass%C3%AB_Elaness%C3%AB) in Burning Song Stones (forum thread (http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?p=59865#post59865), wiki (http://www.burningwheel.org/wiki/index.php?title=Burning_Song_Stones)).

Concept: Youngest and least promising child of the Etharch. Grew up free from care and responsibility in the happy hippy Elven lands far far away from the troubles of the Twisted Death. She has a very romantic notion of what constitutes a "heroic warrior" and longs for a life of adventure, saving the world from the forces of evil. But whilst she is skilled with the spear, she has never actually been tested in battle and has no real idea of what war is like. She is essentially very good hearted and optimistic, but its an optimism based on never having been confronted with reality.

She's the youngest child, the one with no expectations on her, the one everyone loves for her sunny disposition and good nature, but really just dismisses as a dreamer. She's got something to prove: that she's a hero, but she has no idea how hard its going to be. Thats the basic idea.

So far I have:

Beliefs-

1. It is my duty to protect the race of Men, so I will seek to uncover the mystery of the Twisted Death, starting with a trip to the legendary Song Stones.
2. The heroes of the songs of old were pure of heart, true and brave. I will be also, so that I may be worthy of them.
3. I will be a shining light in the face of the darkness.

Instincts-

1. Always see the good in people


This is the first BW character I have created, so I'd really welcome any input on this. Beliefs are coming slowly, but Instincts are a struggle. I'm not really sure what I can or can't take as an Instinct. Alassë fights with a spear. Can I take an instinct to say she always starts combat at long distance, so she takes advantage of the length of the spear? Paul, the GM, suggested the first Instinct above, which I really like.

Any further thoughts would be awesome!

Cheers

Drew

[santovendetta]

Hi Drew,

The first belief seems excellent to me but the second and third lack what the first has. The best beliefs are the ones that give you a long term goal (used to get fate artha) and then a second part which your character can act on right away (to get you persona). In group we call them semicolon beliefs because we write them like "I will reclaim the honor of my family from the usurpers; first by learning the sword". The first part says a lot about your character and can earn you fate for progressing the game, the second part gives you a clear direction. Often as the game progresses you can keep the first part and change the second to represent the next step. Your first one has that, your other beliefs are good notions of your character but need something you can act on.

As for instincts they serve two primary purposes, to give you an advantage over the rules like your spear idea, usually the mechanics of that are left to you and your GM to work out. The other kind of instinct, I think the more fun one and the one that gets you artha, is causing you problems. Find something about your character's personality that will cause her troubles and make it an instinct. Your character seems to be a naive, optimist who thinks she will be a hero so building on that here are a couple example instincts that will hopefully be fun and get you into trouble:

-Always accept any challenge, a hero never turns down adventure.
-If an enemy asks give them a chance to repent, everyone can change.
-Never fight dirty or rely on sneaky tactics
-Always help a stranger in need.
-Always give someone the benefit of doubt.

[Mel White]

Beliefs-
1. It is my duty to protect the race of Men, so I will seek to uncover the mystery of the Twisted Death, starting with a trip to the legendary Song Stones.
2. The heroes of the songs of old were pure of heart, true and brave. I will be also, so that I may be worthy of them.
3. I will be a shining light in the face of the darkness.

Instincts-

1. Always see the good in people


Mining some ideas from the wiki site, here are some thoughts on Beliefs; they may or may not be complementary:

Defeating the Twisted Death requires a New Song. I will create this new song and bring it to the Song Stones.
My aunt Tari Elanesse, the Dark Elf, must know the key of the New Song. I will find her and make her sing.
The Song Stones require new voices, matched to the races of the world. I will seek out these voices and begin a new chorus.


The test I'm pretty satisfied with in writing Beliefs is that the Belief should inspire action. I should know what the character will do when the GM looks at me and says, "What do you do?"

Santovendetta's suggested Instincts look pretty good for a character trying to be an example of heroism and 'a shining light'. Those instincts pretty well reflect the ideas in Beliefs 2 and 3.

Mel

[Drew]

Hi, thanks for the replies, both very useful.

Beliefs.
Mel:

I like those beliefs, and may use or adapt them, but one thing I wonder about is if all my beliefs have to be such concrete and specific? I'd like it if some of my character's beliefs were about how she feels about herself and the world, rather than specifically what she's going to do. So the belief would include more about who the character is, as well as simply a roadmap for what she might get up to. Is that a good idea or am I missing the point of beliefs?

Of course that raises the issue of trying to come up with specific ways to set goals and attain them, as they are going to be less concrete in their nature.

Having said that, I'm trying to revise my Beliefs in the light of Mel's examples, all of which seem pretty good, but don't work so well with the new elements of the backstory which have just emerged (for example, Alessë doesn't know Tari is the dark elf responsible for the Twisted Death, infact she rather worships her exciting and adventurous aunt, unaware of what she has become)

I'll post back when I have something!

Instincts
I like these:

-Always accept any challenge, a hero never turns down adventure.
-If an enemy asks give them a chance to repent, everyone can change.

and am going to use them. Thanks!

Drew

[Kublai]

That second instinct is actually a damn good Belief!

[Mel White]

...one thing I wonder about is if all my beliefs have to be such concrete and specific? I'd like it if some of my character's beliefs were about how she feels about herself and the world, rather than specifically what she's going to do. So the belief would include more about who the character is, as well as simply a roadmap for what she might get up to. Is that a good idea or am I missing the point of beliefs?

I think there is a lot of leeway in Beliefs as used by various players. In the rules (p55) Beliefs are described as "priorities that describe the player's goals for the character and how he means to achieve them". But many of the sample Beliefs in the following pages are more along the lines of 'who the character is' [ex. "I'm the true king of this land"] or how the character thinks [ex. "One man can make a difference"] without detailing how that character will act in accord with that Belief. So either format is 'correct'.
And, as Santovendetta points out, Beliefs are important to earning artha. So as long as a player can look at a Belief and know the behaviors that will earn artha, it should work fine.
I guess the difference is that Beliefs that include details on how the character is going to achieve the Belief are active--rather than reactive. Active Beliefs drive the character to go create or change a situation; reactive Beliefs indicate how a character will act if placed in a situation.
Mel

[Paul B]

Following up Mel's thoughts: The two-part "ideology/to-do item" format works well because it's easy for the GM to target in the story, and to reward Artha on it.

As a GM, I have no idea what to do with, say, "Love is all you need." How do you oppose that in a way that's likely to be interesting to the player? How do you reward Fate for "working toward it"? And when would you ever reward Persona for "completing" it?

So, the two-part Belief thing IMO arose from the practicalities of the reward system. I do believe they work best when they're specific.

I also think there's a need for one (1!) Belief that's broad and non-specific. It gets back to the Artha cycle, right? If you sit down with all the ways you can earn Artha, having an unfulfillable Belief that will regularly conflict with your other two payday Beliefs is pretty mandatory.

If your players are even a little bit Pavlovian when it comes to their gaming, you have to work the reward cycle. And the BW reward cycle is written such that there's an optimal path:

One Belief that can be both pursued and completed this session. From the GM's POV, this provides session-by-session focus for this character.

One Belief that can be pursued every session, and completed irregularly. From the player's POV, this gets to the core concept of the character and provides long-term continuity.

One Belief that contradicts the other two Beliefs and, for convenience's sake, cannot be completed. This gives the GM and the player two opportunities to generate "conflicting Beliefs" Artha. From a bang-writing POV, it's your go-to issue/conflict.

That should net you 4-5 Fate and 1-2 Persona every session.

Last thought: the "lonely fun" of players working out Beliefs is, IMO, one of the most potent immersion-generating elements of actually playing BW (rather than just chatting about it). It only gets that way when the players are doing it on their own, unfortunately. While you're still workshopping Beliefs, it's all pretty processional.

p.

[Drew]

Thanks for the comments Paul :)



One Belief that can be both pursued and completed this session. From the GM's POV, this provides session-by-session focus for this character.

Would I be making up a new belief every session, or am I supposed to try and find one belief that can be fulfilled repeatedly every session? Not quite sure what the intent is with this one.



Last thought: the "lonely fun" of players working out Beliefs is, IMO, one of the most potent immersion-generating elements of actually playing BW (rather than just chatting about it). It only gets that way when the players are doing it on their own, unfortunately. While you're still workshopping Beliefs, it's all pretty processional.

I'm not sure what you mean by this bit. I've not played BW yet, so I guess the intricacies won't be obvious till I have. :)

I'm starting to feel slightly worried actually. This is turning out way more indepth and difficult than I had initially imagined! I'm guessing that as we play, it will become more obvious which Beliefs are working and which aren't and I can modify in play. With that in mind, I am abandoning the temptation to spend ages searching for the "perfect" beliefs for the character, and instead am just going to do my best with what I have, with the idea of refining them in play.

Anyway, I wondered what people thought of these modified Beliefs and Instincts:

Beliefs-

1. It is my duty to protect the race of Men. I will seek to uncover the mystery of the Twisted Death, starting with a trip to the legendary Song Stones.
2. The Elders tell us that Sorcery is a debased and corrupt power, which turns Men from the light. I will find the Sorcerers who threaten the Protectorate and stop them.
3. still working on this one despite the good advice, I'm struggling to think of stuff.

Instincts-

1. Always see the good in people
2. If an enemy asks for a chance to repent, give it to them. Anyone can change.
3. Always accept any challenge, a hero never turns down adventure.

[Drew]

--double post--

[Mel White]

I'm starting to feel slightly worried actually. This is turning out way more indepth and difficult than I had initially imagined! I'm guessing that as we play, it will become more obvious which Beliefs are working and which aren't and I can modify in play. With that in mind, I am abandoning the temptation to spend ages searching for the "perfect" beliefs for the character, and instead am just going to do my best with what I have, with the idea of refining them in play.



Beautiful. This is, I think, the right approach. I've seen several players go through exactly that cycle--create a Belief, not use it in play or not see it earn Artha, and then change to something that does.

Mel

[Mel White]

Anyway, I wondered what people thought of these modified Beliefs and Instincts:

Beliefs-

1. It is my duty to protect the race of Men. I will seek to uncover the mystery of the Twisted Death, starting with a trip to the legendary Song Stones.
2. The Elders tell us that Sorcery is a debased and corrupt power, which turns Men from the light. I will find the Sorcerers who threaten the Protectorate and stop them.
3. still working on this one despite the good advice, I'm struggling to think of stuff.

The third one needs work ;-)



Instincts-

1. Always see the good in people
2. If an enemy asks for a chance to repent, give it to them. Anyone can change.
3. Always accept any challenge, a hero never turns down adventure.


I like these. Th second and third are useful hooks for the GM. If I were the GM, I would be throwing lots of different types of challenges at your character as well as surrendering opponents--who may or may not be repentant, but you won't know until perhaps too late. Keeping in mind that Instincts earn artha when play of that instinct gets the character into trouble, these are artha gold mines.
Mel

[Drew]

Thanks Mel.

Well we start the game tonight. We'll see how the beliefs go in play!

Thanks to everyone for the help and advice.

[Paul B]

Thanks for the comments Paul :)

No problem. Hopefully your players get to put these ideas to use! As often as not, though, there's a pretty steep struggle to wrestle these ideas into your brain.

To answer a specific question:


Would I be making up a new belief every session, or am I supposed to try and find one belief that can be fulfilled repeatedly every session? Not quite sure what the intent is with this one.

The idea is that you write a Belief in two parts. The first part is the ideology and doesn't change (or, rather, it changes when the player is ready to change it). The second half is intended to be changed. So you take a Belief like your first one:


It is my duty to protect the race of Men. I will seek to uncover the mystery of the Twisted Death, starting with a trip to the legendary Song Stones.

The first part -- "It is my duty to protect the race of Men" -- never changes. Awesome belief. Great ideological baseline. The second part is what gets resolved and turned into Persona, then rewritten. Once the character has visited the legendary Song Stones, done! They get a Persona and the Belief is "completed." But they still want the character to be about protecting the race of Men, right? So what happens next? Maybe the second sentence becomes, "I will uncover the location of the missing Song Stone" (if, for example, the Twisted Death is revealed to have been caused by the theft of a Song Stone -- totally making shit up here).

It's that second sentence that needs to be written such that it's resolveable and churnable. At least that's the kind of Belief I like to see in my own game. It's also super-easy for the GM to address, since it's the player telling the GM what he wants to do next!

Mel's right. Don't worry about perfect Beliefs. Just get something out there, and talk after the session about which ones paid and which ones didn't.

p.