Beatdowns, skirmishes, ole' fashioned a**wuppin's...

[quixoteles]

Beatdowns, skirmishes, ole' fashioned a**wuppin's and amubushes have always been common to all the games that I run. Players plan to gather together and mercilessly attack a poor subject. They stomp out the mayor, ambush the bridge troll, play each others shield bearers, sneak attack the opponents in their lovers duels. Is that a FoRK man? What does janissary training have to do with that? (They have it.)

They are absolutely in love with tandem attacks and I am just saying: "err... roll two more black shade FoRK dice and take a genius badge!" What does janissary training do? How does it work?

The question I have is do the helping rules for advancement apply in combat?

For example:

You have the rouge-like knife fighter (b4), the peasant hero spear man (b3) and the plain and tall shield maiden (b2) (no janissary training) against a wolf and they have decide to bum rush they are fighting all planning to support each other. After a brilliant collection of scripts they loose. But, for the sake of argument they are not dead. They all are fighting for their lives; some of them attempted locks, get inside maneuvers, batteries, and counters while dashing--tests go up to b5-6 in the clash.

Does that mean they all get difficult/challenging tests? (Even if some their players Ob's were not that high.)

Can they script the planning? Is this even legal!?

Is their difficulty raised for getting in each other’s way (without the training)? What about with the training?

This is a feature of gaming that is not common in other games and other sessions that I have attended with other systems and other GM, but my players find it really important and it is not really discussed ever and I was surprised it was included in BW (probably because LC is a RP Genius [jealousy fuming])

PS my players are digesting this stuff so rapidly creatively and organically that I can't keep up. Someone give me insight, please. Elegant game giving GM stroke and player are becoming too good, too quickly.

[luke]

What does janissary training do? How does it work?
Janissaries were skilled Turkish Horsemen. Janissary Training would allow player characters to use Skirmish Tactics and fire their short, compound bows while mounted.


Does that mean they all get difficult/challenging tests? (Even if some their players Ob's were not that high.)

Only the character's directly tested get tests for advancement. If two characters are acting together using the Helping rules, they both earn a test toward advancement (they both risked something to get that test.)

However, in order to use the helping rules in combat, both characters (generally) have to have the same action scripted at the same interval.

I wrote an article about this (http://www.burningwheel.org/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=98).


Can they script the planning? Is this even legal!?
Players can plan for the script before a melee starts. After the festivities commence, the characters are limited in how they interact. Characters may only speak 2 syllables per action. Therefore, "planning" in the frey is generally bypassed in favor of survival.


Is their difficulty raised for getting in each other’s way
only if you rule their combined actions legitimately put them at a disadvantage -- like in a confined space. Otherwise, I wouldn't.


PS my players are digesting this stuff so rapidly creatively and organically that I can't keep up. Someone give me insight, please. Elegant game giving GM stroke and player are becoming too good, too quickly.

Sounds fun. What exactly is happening?

-L

[quixoteles]

Thanks for the clairfication abzu,

The game that I am running is about a war against an Orcish empire and fully mature trolls and "fully-grieived" Elves assaulting a peninsula. The players are on a quest to defend their holy land from the "forces of darkness."

A faithful knight, an Elvish prince and his herald as PC party members. They are all the inheritors of an Elvish war technique that involves tandem attacks that support efforts in melee.

An angel has come down and made an intercession. Giant spiders guard passages into hills and mountains.

Just recently, an undisciplined orcish battalion on the sight of the character that had the traits comely, charismatic and charming made the first attack against a city-state.

Um... the campaign is in its early stages at this point but it's definitely another one of the operas that I am known for. If you want I can sort out what has been happening an talk about it publicly.

My team of guys are really taking to the rules, found that they like the first armor rules better; we have like 100 d6 between us in like 13 colors or types, it fun to use them for something. :) The understand things faster than I do, they even make some of the enemies (a truly impressive head-taker). They script together one of them taking it like a game of numbers. They remember the rules faster than I do and they make great combinations (the counter-lock/block is my favorite). I have yet been able to play :cry:

They all won't let me stop running this thing, so I am with them stuck and the other group I play with will only play Marvel Universe RPG (somnabi**hes). Hopefully some will come to my rescue and let me play one day ((=_=)).

[luke]

Hey man,

Sounds like a whole lot of fun. Feel free to post any other questions you might have in the future.

-L

[Kublai]

You have the rouge-like knife fighter (b4), the peasant hero spear man (b3) and the plain and tall shield maiden (b2) (no janissary training) against a wolf and they have decide to bum rush they are fighting all planning to support each other. After a brilliant collection of scripts they loose. But, for the sake of argument they are not dead. They all are fighting for their lives; some of them attempted locks, get inside maneuvers, batteries, and counters while dashing--tests go up to b5-6 in the clash.

Does that mean they all get difficult/challenging tests? (Even if some their players Ob's were not that high.)

Helping in combat is surely an approved strategy, especially when it comes to locks and charges. In this case, if the knife fighter is the main die-roller, we have a total of 6 dice being rolled. That's 6 dice versus Ob5-6. All three participants would be able to mark a Difficult test.

[quixoteles]

One zombie doesn't stand a chance of Getting Inside on the fighter, but if the pack of them manages to surround him...well then that's 50 helping dice...and now someone else doesn't stand a chance!



FAAAK?! It's like that in BW?
:shock:

Bet... [vigorus nod]

You hear that Mr. Sullivan? I'm coming! :evil:

[eruditus]

Hmmm... I would think that there should be an "assist" action.

Assist can be anything and can be described as its rolled but the point is helping someone appropriately.

I think helping one another does take a little planning (ie. not done completely on the fly) so plays shouldn't be able to script strike and decide to use that strike to "help" a comrade.

Additionally, I would assume than an assist could be almost any action, not just the same as the primary attacker. One could be kneeling behind the opponent during a charge or pinning a shiled arm while his friend swings at him. Based on the description it would then be up to the GM what dice to use.

[foxandwarlock]

Hey quixoteles...

Makes you respect that group of goblins up ahead in the tunnel, huh?

[Kaare Berg]

If your players keep getting the better of you with co-ordinated scripting, start playing your NPCS smart.


Let them not chose the site of battle, "what they ambush us?"
Charge then great strike the shield bearer (you cant't block Charge, only resist with power or speed (aka evade)). then administer some righteous beat down.
Three all out offensive stance goblins with daggers pr character, Get inside STRIKE STRIKE STRIKE STRIKE . . . ouch . . . moan . . . thud.
Only a fool would bring a sword to a Spear-fight mr. knight:
They have a, no wait, they have three cave trolls.


Some suggestions.

The good thing about the BW combat systems is that once they (yur players) have learned a tactic, then switch yours.

Control the information they get. If they want to look around, well there is an action called glance assess. It takes 4 actions to look around 360 degrees around you, oh and by then the information about your front is most likely 1,5 seconds old.

And most importantly: one volley is one second. How much can you plan in one second.

Your ominpotent, make them respet that.

K

[Kublai]

Respek!

[phredd]

If your players keep getting the better of you with co-ordinated scripting, start playing your NPCS smart.


Let them not chose the site of battle, "what they ambush us?"


Heh. Kublai's darn good at pulling this. And many of his villains are pretty good tactically too. Our party spent a good six months healing after one of his ambushes.

[Kublai]

Wasn't that particular ambush pulled off by a group of children? :twisted:

[phredd]

Wasn't that particular ambush pulled off by a group of children? :twisted:

Nope. A tank of a dwarf and two nasty human customers.

The kids you're thinking of went down like wheat, especially since (unbeknownst to my character) my allies were not pulling their punches. We ended up injured from that one when we cracked open the magic sea urchin of doom and it exploded on us. Hell, I even did for the demon pretty well. All his pals call him One-Eye now.

[quixoteles]

So the key is to create strageties to combat the characters...

I think that the problem is that they are so opportunist, like wild animals man, I try my best but the players aren't slouches either. I had a discussion with an other GM that has observed them; a very 'chaotic' bunch he called them. They use ambiguity as an asset.

That is not to say that they are a bunch of diabolists that come to the table with lawyers, speech writers image consultants and a campaign manager, that is how they are as people that is the way they explain things, they are generally cagey mother (shut your mouth) ... I'm only talking about the NWO RPG fellowship (we can dig it!). ((=_=))

I don't know... Perhaps I am just making excuses--it's late. They have always been good at this; a professional con-man, a gigolo, and an experinced role-player in the same group. It's a love/hate relationship.

[luke]

So the key is to create strageties to combat the characters... .

Yes and no. The key to GMing is to challenge your players and keep them interested. The key to NPCs is to give them distinct personalities and believable behaviors. Building NPCs just to tar your players is only going to create ill will.

However, as your players gain a reputation in your world, I'm sure it will filter down to the ears of a few people who might get offended, and take matters into their own hands. Or a crossbow.

-L

[Kublai]

FEAR the crossbow! :shock:

[Kaare Berg]

No my friend, fear the Longbow.


So the key is to create strageties to combat the characters...

Not what I meant at all.


The good thing about the BW combat systems is that once they (yur players) have learned a tactic, then switch yours.

And what I meant was that your players, as will most players being the simple creatures they are :twisted:, will, if they have a winning combo, stick to it.

Ever played Tekken against someone who unlocked a killer combo that you just don't know and had them beat you over the head with it. Same thing.

What you do is change the playing field.

If they are playing tag team on your NPCs swamp them with enemies. "You sure you wanna shield guard him while these five sneaky goblins with wicked, poisonous daggers charge you?"

If they are hiding behind a couple of tank like knights have a big troll remove the knights by the simply combo Grab - Throw. "You want to spend a persona on a complication? . . . Thought so, what happens?"

If your friend keeps kicking low and you can't get up. Yank out his controller, trash his character and then show him that while he may kick ass in a video game you are som much stronger in the real world (unless you have Game Designer Power and really just should let him win.)

Seriously though Quixoteles, your players are having fun as it is. Don't change NPC tactics just to get at them. If you start messing around with different combos, do so to challenge them.

My players have become quite proficient in killing Grey Trolls (brutish cowards), even the armoured ones. Three Draugi Wood Trolls (small undead pshycos) had six characters, all experienced 5 LPs with martial skills up in the B6s and B7s run like cowards. Why?
Because the draugi ambushed the players in a dark tunnel, where all they could see were the hateful ember like eyes of the draugi, and they got inside with daggers, claws and teeth.
Calem the sorcerer cast White Fire down that corridor when they got out, ignoring another ambush just so the little bastards wouldn't follow them.

This is what Luke, Kublai and I are trying to tell you.

And the way to do so is to play them as intelligent beings.

Hell if you want a quick fix to:


They are all the inheritors of an Elvish war technique that involves tandem attacks that support efforts in melee

Like Luke said. Word gets around. There is an orc empire. They must have fought elves before. When word spreads of some annoying pointy eared pests stopping the invasion using this old technique bring in the elf killers! Orcs who have been trained to fight against this techniques ever since the war of . . . .

Hope this helps.

K