Character Concepts

[Donny D.]

I think in BW it is VERY importaint to have a good and, contrary to what the book says, detailed character Concept. I think with a detailed concept for a character many of the "good vs. bad" Trait issues will fall to the wayside. I think a good way to do this would be to answer a questionaire about the character before beginning the numbers process. In this questionaire you would generally describe any good traits and bad traits you see the character as having and why. Perhaps the soldier became a wizard after losing a hand in battle (thus the bad trait allowed you to take a setting change normally not allowed). Or maybe the reason a knight has an instinct to try to talk his way out of situations is because he is a Coward at heart.
I have yet to find a good character concept questionaire though. If anyone has written or found one please post. I love the Beginning Steel type questionaire but it cannot really be used for Character Concept.

[Donny D.]

What sort of adventures do you wish to have (mystery, horror, action adventure etc.)

Would you consider yourself a Hero, Anti-Hero, Villain, etc. ___________________________

Are you Human, Elf, Dwarf, Orc, or Other (and why did you choose it?) __________________

Are you Young, Middle Aged, Old? Why did you choose this age?________________________

Just before beginning your adventuring career, what was your role and why?______________________________________________ ___________

Are you still employed in that role or has something changed?__________________________________________ ___________________

Define something distinctive about your personality and how did you get that way?__________________

How does this effect the way you will play this character?________________________________________ _

Define something distinctive about your looks and how did you get that way? ______________________

How does this effect the way you will play this character?________________________________________ _

Define something distinctive about your manerisms and why? ________________________________________

How does this effect the way you will play this character?

[foxandwarlock]

My GM's philosophy, for the past few years, has been: "tell the story during gameplay, not in the history." He argued that it created characters who had already accomplished feats in their past that they could never duplicate during gameplay.

I, on the other hand, argued that I needed a strong grasp of my character when I sat down at the table and I got it by penning detailed histories. And so, many arguments later, we found BW.

I had a rough idea of the character I wanted to play. He was going to be a "monster hunter" and then I started flipping through the books and picking lifepaths - and the character I ended up with was way cooler and very different from my original idea - mainly because I hadn't gone in with a rock solid image. I think that if I'd gone into character creation with a very set idea, I would have ended up frustrated and disappointed - because no system can compare to the image in your head. You end up creating characters that look like the guy in your mind but can't quite do the things you envisioned and so you end up waiting for the guy on the sheet to become the guy in your mind - and that whole time you're waiting, you're not playing a character that interests you.

Now, every gaming group is different, and the relationships between its GM and players are too but I'd tell you to try the Wheel without the questionaire. Now I'm not saying not to have a concept, 'cause you are definitely going to need it but be flexible with it. For me, the ideas took me by surprise and breathed life into the concept in ways which I had not thought about. And, after giving it a whirl, if you still feel like you're floating, like you don't have enough meat on your character's bones, by all means use the questionaire.

[Donny D.]

Well I think the reason I would like a more full concept before working the numbers is because as I'm building the character I seem to get the "concept" as I'm burning him. "Wow, he has a 6 Power - this guy is tough" (rather than saying, this guy is tough in the Concept stage),and the "missing hand" trait never comes to mind. and rarely, by the time I get to the Traits step does that concept include "huge bulbous nose" or "one eyed". By the time I get to traits it seems (being a former Min/Maxer) I am no longer interested in paying for a "bad" trait. But if I start with a concept of "monster hunter with a pronounced limp (from a run in with a rabid Cave Bear) who compensates for his lack of speed with ingenuity" then when I get to traits during character burning, LAME fits perfectly.
Of course you dont want to get too specific (or too rigid) on the concept because like you said you may not be able to match the numbers perfectly with the concept. If you simply say in your concept "I am stronger than most people and am respected for it" then that could be a 5 Power (or higher) and give you a "reputation" for being strong (during the resource stage).
A short history, for me, always seems appropriate and can really give the GM fodder for great adventures (remember in your history where you said you were mugged in an alley and they cut off your left index finger in the skirmish? Well you see those guys walk into the tavern.) Anywho...

[Kublai]

A short history, for me, always seems appropriate and can really give the GM fodder for great adventures (remember in your history where you said you were mugged in an alley and they cut off your left index finger in the skirmish? Well you see those guys walk into the tavern.) Anywho...

As a BW GM, I am partial to not having much of a history to work with beyond the Lifepaths, contacts, and BITs. In your example above, I am limited as a GM to decide exactly who took the finger. However, if you had the missing digit trait without the background, either I or you would have the flexibility to use it in game at any time where it would add to the story. So maybe it'd help the story if instead of muggers, you had lost the finger to a noble who was punishing you for a crime, for instance. Flexibility is a good thing for roleplaying and I highly encourage it.

All that said, I will not allow a player to make a character without first cementing a concept and a tie into the campaign goal. Concept is the single most important concept to BW philosophy![/i]

[Donny D.]

I had a rough idea of the character I wanted to play. He was going to be a "monster hunter" and then I started flipping through the books and picking lifepaths - and the character I ended up with was way cooler and very different from my original idea - mainly because I hadn't gone in with a rock solid image. I think that if I'd gone into character creation with a very set idea, I would have ended up frustrated and disappointed - because no system can compare to the image in your head.

But I do think you can have a concept that is loose enough to just guide you durning character burning. "I can wrestle a Troll and win" would not be a good concept sentence because durning play I very much doubt you would be able to do that. But you could say "I am a proficient street fighter, having grown up as a street urchin in the big city" This statement doesnt say anything other than when I'm burning the character I want to take brawling skill at a fairly proficient level" You'll notice, in the questionaire, that I didnt say list several skills, or how old are you exactly... I kept it very general and only one physical, one personality trait and one mannerism were to be shown. It's much easier to see your character being "sickly" in the concept stage than in the trait stage.

[Kublai]

I think a questionaire like Donny D's has merit to players unaccustomed to playing a BW-esque game. It'll certainly put them into a right frame of mind before they start randomly choosing lifepaths.

Once they - and more importantly, the GM - are used to the idea of concept, I don't think questionaires are any longer useful to much degree.

Loose or rigid - either would work well with BW. I often do it both ways.

[Donny D.]

As a BW GM, I am partial to not having much of a history to work with beyond the Lifepaths, contacts, and BITs. In your example above, I am limited as a GM to decide exactly who took the finger. However, if you had the missing digit trait without the background, either I or you would have the flexibility to use it in game at any time where it would add to the story. So maybe it'd help the story if instead of muggers, you had lost the finger to a noble who was punishing you for a crime, for instance. Flexibility is a good thing for roleplaying and I highly encourage it.

I highly agree with you, but sometimes when you have the GM play off of a history that you made up it seems a little bit more personal. For the 3 months that I've been playing the character I have been remebering this alley fight where I lost my finger and now, they walk into the tavern. Revenge time. Sure the GM could just say (provided you never specified how you lost the finger) "in walks the 3 guys who cut off your finger in an alley 3 years ago" but it loses a little punch when there was no history. I think, though, you are right in that keeping your options open is very good as a player and GM. Of course even with the SHORT history stated above the GM could reveal that what you thought were 'muggers' were actually sent by the local lord to punish you for an indescretion 3 years ago and now they are back.

[Kublai]

Donny, you're my man! :D

[Donny D.]

Once they - and more importantly, the GM - are used to the idea of concept, I don't think questionaires are any longer useful to much degree.

So being a veteran Burning Wheeler how do you go about making a concept? Lets say you and I were going to play and I said we were playing in Middle Earth (since I'm sure everyone is familiar with that world). The campaign will be mainly in the wildernesses along the Great East Road. What would a "good" concept look like that would work well for burning a character for this campaign? What would be included? Left out?

This is just what I wanted to know...how to come up with a concept that would facilitate the creation of FUN and UNIQUE characters (I hate that Blank next to Concept- Its so intimidating!)

[Kublai]

Concept and campaign goal should be closely married. I couldn't even begin to conceive of a character until I have a goal in mind. The two should emerge during a back-and-forth between all the players and the GM. I tried this once to some success with Drozdal, Phredd, and Thor. I am just in the process of doing it again over at NerdNYC. I invite you to read along! (http://www.nerdnyc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7326)

So before I could create a concept, I would ask you what the goal is. As we create the goal together, character ideas will pop up and perhaps influence the resulting goal. I may then go back and revise my character again to better fit the final goal. Interaction with other players during this time will also result in everyone's characters having a stake and a relationship before the actual playing even begins. Finally, I will take that concept and bring it to the CB, where I use highlights from the previous discussion to guide my burninatin'.

Does this make sense? It's all rather new to me, too, in a way!

[Kublai]

Once they - and more importantly, the GM - are used to the idea of concept, I don't think questionaires are any longer useful to much degree.

The campaign will be mainly in the wildernesses along the Great East Road. What would a "good" concept look like that would work well for burning a character for this campaign? What would be included? Left out?

To answer your question with more detail, I would begin with a very simple concept - "I'd like to play a young, Gondorian scout." The next step would be to ask why I am playing him. This will hopefully lead to the discussion of the campaign goal, which I mentioned in the above post.

[Donny D.]

VERY COOL. Now I have to ask about this "campaign goal". What is that? Lets say as a GM I had the idea that the characters would begin adventuring doing what they would normally be doing, say, scouting in the case of your Gondorian Scout. Then I would want things to start happening, including Troll raids, strange and forboding magical effects etc. What I as GM would have in mind would be the Characters fighting one arm of the forces of Saruman. Perhaps defeating a great Uruk General in the climax of the Campaign. Now, with that all said, I don't think I would want to give too much of my "overall" plan away. They should not know Saruman is behind it until later. What would I use as a "campaign goal" in this case if I didnt want to give much away? Or would this not be a good campaign for BW?

[Kublai]

You just gave a great place to start defining your campaign goal - "Defeat the Great Uruk who is razing the local area!"

That goal also fits perfectly with my initial character concept. Perhaps my character was a farmer before this Uruk band forced him to flee their destruction? Perhaps another player is looking for a promotion in the army and wants to use the capture of this Uruk as the means? Suddenly, we have two cool character concepts who are intimately tied in with the goal and who have motivation to stick together!

By allowing the players to share in the story creation, they feel like its theirs - and "that's a good thing," as Martha Stewart would say. Once actual play begins, keep encouraging players to give input on where they would like to see the story go next. Sometimes, they have better ideas than you would!

I often also like to ask my players what "twists" they would like to see as well as what major obstacles they would like to hurdle. Whether or not to use those ideas is your prerogative, but if you sneak one up on them, they're gonna be delighted to see their idea in the campaign.

By addressing these ideas from the players, you keep them happy. It also makes your job much easier! Sometimes, you have to do nothing but make some rules calls!

Your fun as a GM will come from throwing the wrenches into their ideas. Nothing is easy after all, and even though the players may know major chunks of the story, it's up to you to turn those points on their heads. There's also nothing to stop you from using your own ideas as surprises.

For instance, in our little example, the characters have defeated the Uruk! Huzzah! The campaign goal is achieved and much Artha is doled out. But what's this? A clue to further adventure? Now the players can decide where they will go next. Perhaps they will take the bait and head off after Saruman? Perhaps they will have their own ideas as to where to go next? You should have no problem discussing what the next goal would be, just as you did when discussing the first goal.

[Donny D.]

Very Good! Thanks. I think a 'campaign goal' is a great place to start before making Character concepts. Genre could be discussed then too. If it was decided that the campaign would have a 'horror' flavor then a different sort of character may be called for than if it was going to be an action adventure quest type of game.

[Kublai]

Exactly! Since BW is so open-ended with character types, I find it even more necessary to lay down some ground rules before beginning. Else, it often results in... CHAOS!

Genre is very important. So is stating the number of lifepaths allowed. Sometimes, it's even beneficial to tell them which settings they can and can't use. Also, making sure which races are and aren't appropriate can be necessary. Like in my new NerdNYC campaign, I wanted to play out an all-dwarf story. Therefore, I made it clear that only dwarfs were allowed - no other race.

All this stuff should be hashed out before play and most of it should be on the table during character burning. Otherwise, you may get some upset players at worst, or unmotivated players at least.

[foxandwarlock]

That's exactly how our campaign got started. The three players and the GM sat down and we started rattling off things that we wanted and things we didn't want. We started as a campaign of Undead Hunters, then we went to Monster Hunters, then we moved to the idea that the characters were in a world on the brink of disaster, or maybe a little over the edge into the darkness. And after a lot of "discussion", we walked out with a concept for the campaign and then our GM went out and found a world (Midnight) that matched our concept.

It was the first time we'd ever done that - where everyone was involved in what the campaign was going to be about - and its been so much better then anything we've done in the past. The players are excited, the GM is excited - everybody's mentally involved - its very cool.

[Kaare Berg]

Kublai is stating something very important here Donny.

Talk to your players.

A campaign goal dosen't need to be as specific as "defeat the evil Uruk general". You can make it as nebolus as : "war is brewing in the east, the great battle of our time is coming, how will you aquit yourselves as the heroes of the fight." ref the prime part here (Http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=310).

The point is that you tell them what kind of game you want to run, they then use this to make their simple concepts. talk to them again, make the character and then for the third time talk to them, except this time you ask:
What do you want to do with this character?
because if they are remotely like me they will already have cooked up many cool ideas for their characters that they just would love to actually play.


I often also like to ask my players what "twists" they would like to see as well as what major obstacles they would like to hurdle. Whether or not to use those ideas is your prerogative, but if you sneak one up on them, they're gonna be delighted to see their idea in the campaign.

then do this and they will worship at your feet.

K

[Donny D.]

This is all great stuff. I think there should be an essay in the Revised Edition explaining all of this since it is definately not the "traditional" way that most gamers are used to doing things. I'm excited to get started but a little bit nervous about doing combat because I have no idea how to run combat effectively. I wish I could have gotten a demo from Luke at Gencon but with only 4 tables for all of the Forge games sharing there was never an available table when I went by.

[Kublai]

In that case, Donny D., make sure to run a few demo combats with your players before anything else. The way you burn a character will definitely effect combat. Make sure you all understand the difference between a B4 and a B5 Reflexes - because that difference can be HUGE!

Since BW is all about balance within the character, you're mostly likely gonna have to make sacrifices. Do you want a strong but powerful warrior or a fast and agile one? Most people will choose a balance, actually. This is because of the wound system. You go down when your lowest stat reaches zero. If you have a B6 Power but a B3 Speed, you'll go down faster than a person with B5 and B4, respectively.

Understanding or at least being aware of the subtleties involved can mean the difference between a happy and sad player.

[Donny D.]

Thats a good idea, maybe i'll set up a short (very short) game of generic orcs where they fight each other.

[Wuxing]

By allowing the players to share in the story creation, they feel like its theirs - and "that's a good thing," as Martha Stewart would say. Once actual play begins, keep encouraging players to give input on where they would like to see the story go next. Sometimes, they have better ideas than you would!

I often also like to ask my players what "twists" they would like to see as well as what major obstacles they would like to hurdle. Whether or not to use those ideas is your prerogative, but if you sneak one up on them, they're gonna be delighted to see their idea in the campaign.

By addressing these ideas from the players, you keep them happy. It also makes your job much easier! Sometimes, you have to do nothing but make some rules calls!

Yes, yes and yes again! Make it a cooperative effort right from the start and life is beautiful. This doesn't always mean it's easy. Foxandwarlock can tell you we talked multiple weekends about this, frustrating him initially, but ultimately it's worked out.

I have to mention that I've long since stopped trying to plan things out. I have a few cool ideas and run with them. I solicit cool ideas from the players all the time. I incorporate, twist, meld, mix and whatever else I can do to make it interesting. I make sure that there are consequences to their actions and I don't pull punches. I'm right there at the table cheering when they do well, praying they make a roll or jeering at the bad guy just like any other player. Some thought it would detract from their enjoyment and weren't prepared for it actually enhancing their enjoyment as they were directly changing things in the "story" we're jointly creating.

"Oh, oh... if I can catch them right at dawn I'll get wood!" "How cool would it be if..." "I could go out like that, that's a good death." "Come on, I'm a seargant, can't I spend artha to get a war horse instead of a riding horse" "He just did what?!?" Just some random ooc quotes from the table. A few sessions of this and the game takes a life of it's own and you just ride along with everyone else.

It really comes down to why do you play. I play to have fun and try to craft something that my group of friends and I can talk about. I haven't had a gaming experience I really really wanted in a long time, so with BW I'm running the way I wish it had been done. It's collaborative. It's interesting. It's entertaining. Just as importantly as a GM, it doesn't feel like work at all. Everyone is having a great time, so something must be right for my group. :D

[Kublai]

Thats a good idea, maybe i'll set up a short (very short) game of generic orcs where they fight each other.

To save yourself time, I recommend downloading the characters from Von Goten's Predicament and Poisonous Ambition available for free in the Downloads section of the main site. You can also hit the Characters links and find lots of ready to play characters, as well as in the Wheel of Life forum.

[Donny D.]

I think I'll skip the questionaire and just pose one question to the players beyond the basic character concept... "What makes this character unique?"

[luke]

I think I'll skip the questionaire and just pose one question to the players beyond the basic character concept... "What makes this character unique?"

That rocks.

To keep it tight, restrict them to illustrating three thing -- three points. (that way you avoid a 10-page "unique" history.)

-L