Kestral
07-30-2008, 03:21 PM
I’ve been running a Burning Wheel game for going on a year now, and by this time we’ve gotten most of the system down pat. For me one of the trickiest things left is judging whether or not something deserves Deeds, and judging by threads like (THIS AND THIS) I’m not alone, and it may not ever get easy. That said, I’d like some help with a situation that came up last game that might qualify for Deeds, but might also be setting / reinforcing a potentially bad precedent. I’ll try to explain it as concisely as possible but that will come at the cost of some setting and circumstance information, so I’ll be around to answer clarifying questions if there’s a point of confusion. For those of you who would prefer not to go over the wall of text below, there's an Abridged Version at the bottom that sums things up fairly well.
The Setup
Our setting is described in detail here (http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5297), but for brevity’s sake consider it “fantasy Rome with the serial numbers filed off, immediately after the sack of Rome.” The setting’s first empire of Men – and the homeland of the PCs - has fallen after betrayal from within by a rebellious Prince, civilization is crumbling, and there is a very real possibility that the gods are punishing the world with an endless winter for it. After starting out as young nobles protecting a small university town in the countryside, the PCs created a resistance movement and freed much of the surrounding land both from the raiders sent out by the conquering armies camped outside the capital city of Aurin and the depredations of the druidic cult of the Kastiran barbarians, who are sending thousands to their deaths in burning wicker men to appease a bloodthirsty spirit.
Having secured a portion of the countryside at great personal cost (the death of one of the PCs, the group’s warrior-priest), the PCs split off from their small army and snuck into the capital to learn more about what’s going on. As they were making their way through the streets of Aurin they spotted a procession of the conquering lords of the seven armies who brought the Empire low heading for a meeting in the heart of the city. This was originally intended as a “cut-scene” to introduce the figures of note they would be playing significant roles in the third of the campaign’s arcs. But upon hearing that the Joan of Arc-esque warrior-queen of the Kastirans (the wicker men folks) was riding in the procession, the players decided that they and their characters would be willing to pay any price to bring her down. They quickly planned an ambush, broke out their crossbows, blew a ton of Artha, made binding oaths and sacrifices to the gods for their aid (think Titus Pullo and the chickens from HBO’s Rome, except it actually works) and, lo and behold, they killed her and escaped – barely – with their lives.
It was awesome. It was epic. It was completely in-character, given the horrors these characters had seen and experienced at the Kastirans’ hands. It was done at great personal cost but for something other than personal gain – no personal gain whatsoever, in fact, and it sent the story in an interesting new direction. I gave them Deeds for it without any reservations.
Now it’s happened again, and I’m not so sure any more.
The Deed in Question
That last part was longer than I had hoped it would be, so I’ll try to keep this short(er).
The PCs have allied themselves with Novatian, the Betrayer Prince whose rebellion triggered the fall of the Empire, for complicated reasons better left undescribed. They have successfully hidden the fact that they assassinated one of his allies and caused a huge amount of turmoil within the always-tenuous alliance of the conqueror lords. Their efforts at secrecy started to come undone after a series of disastrously botched tests a few sessions ago resulted in Elven spies acquiring evidence that the PCs had murdered the Kastiran queen. Eruvande, the Elven Etharch who had fallen to Spite long ago, sent a message to the PCs demanding their presence in her court, intending to blackmail them by threatening to tell the Kastirans that her spies had found the men who had assassinated their queen, which would cause a tremendous amount of chaos among the armies of Men no matter how the situation was handled.
Ever since they entered Novatian’s service the PCs had heard that Eruvande’s words can twist the minds of Men (the Dark Elven spell-song Twisted Tongue) and to never enter into her presence without a sorcerer’s protection (a spell created by Men in the war against Elf-kind to protect their most important personages against Wonderment and similar effects, but at the cost of some mental acuity), so they went into Eruvande’s presence in the company of Novatian’s personal sorcerer, who happens to be the mother of one of the PCs and a pre-defined Relationship. Before departing, however, they had a lengthy discussion about whether it would be worth their lives to make another assassination attempt: Elves and Men have a long history of warfare and near-genocide, and Eruvande’s death might throw a powerful army into disarray or even cause them to depart the lands of Men altogether. Ultimately they decided against it, feeling that it would be pushing their luck too far to try it on her turf, but if they could secure a second meeting in a location of their choosing they would make the attempt.
It should be noted at this point that none of the PCs had any Beliefs related to the Elves, and that this was essentially a short follow-up scene to play out the consequences of some of their earlier actions and tests.
This is already too long, so suffice it to say that they refused to give in to Eruvande’s blackmailing, knowing full well that if Novatian refused to give them over to the Kastirans for judgment it would cause them to lay siege to the capital city, shattering the fragile peace and plunging the world into war again (it’s a choice that makes sense in context). As they were leaving, one PC slipped away and returned to speak with Eruvande in private. Realizing that he was gone and away from the protection of their sorceress, the rest of the party rushed back and prepared to rescue their friend by force if necessary. They arrived too late, and Eruvande bewitched their companion with Twisted Tongue, luring him onto the back of her giant eagle and taking to the skies. Before she could escape, the rest of the party brought out their trusty crossbows and felled the eagle in mid-flight with two bolts, while a third took the life of the Imperial battlemage Eruvande has kept chained to the bird as a trophy / plaything. The bird crashed to the ground, inflicting a Mortal Wound on Eruvande and setting off a running battle through the ruins of the Imperial Forum against Eruvande’s bodyguards as they attempted to retrieve their friend from the wreckage of the fallen bird and finish off the Etharch once and for all. In the end their no-longer-bewitched friend slew Eruvande but was captured, another PC was hunted down through the streets and felled by a Traumatic wound before being dragged off to join his friend in captivity, and a third PC took a Mortal Wound but was rescued by the last member of the group and survived.
The Dilemma
Defeating Eruvande in the midst of her guards and removing what they believe (with a small ‘b’) to be a serious threat to the race of Men at great cost to themselves is a pretty significant accomplishment, one they carried out knowing that they would probably all die in the process. Even so, they made the attempt because one of their own was about to be carried off to an unknown but probably unpleasant fate, and that feels more like Persona for personal accomplishments than Deeds. They also seem to be following the path they set for themselves when they assassinated the Kastiran queen rather than, in Luke’s words from this (http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5579) thread, a “turn away from their original goals and devote themselves to a new agenda,” even though it involved considerable sacrifice on their part.
Where I run into a disconnect is that, mechanically speaking, Eruvande’s death was vastly more difficult to accomplish, cost the PCs a great deal more to carry out, and will throw the entire setting on its head. I want to give them a nice reward for this. I have feeling they may even expect it and may feel cheated by receiving Persona instead, especially since one of them has a Mortal Wound that is taking his character out of the game for months and two more are very likely to be killed by Dark Elves, but I’m having a hard time justifying anything else based on the text of the Deeds award and statements made by Luke on these boards. Further, I’m afraid that awarding Deeds for this will create or reinforce the idea that the best way to mechanically advance their characters is to go around killing off Figures of Note. I’m not against FoNs dying off, mind you: this has been a grim and gritty setting and campaign, but I’d prefer that options other than Fight! be considered viable for dealing with the setting’s problems.
Abridged Version
My players’ characters assassinated a major setting NPC in a completely awesome way that sent the game in a new direction, was personally costly but without personal benefit, and they got Deeds for it. Now they’ve killed another one at the cost of a (survived) Mortal Wound and the capture and potential execution of two out of four party members by Dark Elves and possibly plunging the world into war again, but their motives weren't as clear-cut and altruistic: they knew she was a terrible threat and wanted her dead, but they only made the attempt because one of their companions was bewitched and about to be carried off. I’m also starting to wonder if I’m setting a bad precedent for Deeds awards by handing them out for taking down Figures of Note even at tremendous personal cost, as I'd like to avoid reinforcing the idea that the best way to handle problems (and problematic people) is with a crossbow. Help?
The Setup
Our setting is described in detail here (http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5297), but for brevity’s sake consider it “fantasy Rome with the serial numbers filed off, immediately after the sack of Rome.” The setting’s first empire of Men – and the homeland of the PCs - has fallen after betrayal from within by a rebellious Prince, civilization is crumbling, and there is a very real possibility that the gods are punishing the world with an endless winter for it. After starting out as young nobles protecting a small university town in the countryside, the PCs created a resistance movement and freed much of the surrounding land both from the raiders sent out by the conquering armies camped outside the capital city of Aurin and the depredations of the druidic cult of the Kastiran barbarians, who are sending thousands to their deaths in burning wicker men to appease a bloodthirsty spirit.
Having secured a portion of the countryside at great personal cost (the death of one of the PCs, the group’s warrior-priest), the PCs split off from their small army and snuck into the capital to learn more about what’s going on. As they were making their way through the streets of Aurin they spotted a procession of the conquering lords of the seven armies who brought the Empire low heading for a meeting in the heart of the city. This was originally intended as a “cut-scene” to introduce the figures of note they would be playing significant roles in the third of the campaign’s arcs. But upon hearing that the Joan of Arc-esque warrior-queen of the Kastirans (the wicker men folks) was riding in the procession, the players decided that they and their characters would be willing to pay any price to bring her down. They quickly planned an ambush, broke out their crossbows, blew a ton of Artha, made binding oaths and sacrifices to the gods for their aid (think Titus Pullo and the chickens from HBO’s Rome, except it actually works) and, lo and behold, they killed her and escaped – barely – with their lives.
It was awesome. It was epic. It was completely in-character, given the horrors these characters had seen and experienced at the Kastirans’ hands. It was done at great personal cost but for something other than personal gain – no personal gain whatsoever, in fact, and it sent the story in an interesting new direction. I gave them Deeds for it without any reservations.
Now it’s happened again, and I’m not so sure any more.
The Deed in Question
That last part was longer than I had hoped it would be, so I’ll try to keep this short(er).
The PCs have allied themselves with Novatian, the Betrayer Prince whose rebellion triggered the fall of the Empire, for complicated reasons better left undescribed. They have successfully hidden the fact that they assassinated one of his allies and caused a huge amount of turmoil within the always-tenuous alliance of the conqueror lords. Their efforts at secrecy started to come undone after a series of disastrously botched tests a few sessions ago resulted in Elven spies acquiring evidence that the PCs had murdered the Kastiran queen. Eruvande, the Elven Etharch who had fallen to Spite long ago, sent a message to the PCs demanding their presence in her court, intending to blackmail them by threatening to tell the Kastirans that her spies had found the men who had assassinated their queen, which would cause a tremendous amount of chaos among the armies of Men no matter how the situation was handled.
Ever since they entered Novatian’s service the PCs had heard that Eruvande’s words can twist the minds of Men (the Dark Elven spell-song Twisted Tongue) and to never enter into her presence without a sorcerer’s protection (a spell created by Men in the war against Elf-kind to protect their most important personages against Wonderment and similar effects, but at the cost of some mental acuity), so they went into Eruvande’s presence in the company of Novatian’s personal sorcerer, who happens to be the mother of one of the PCs and a pre-defined Relationship. Before departing, however, they had a lengthy discussion about whether it would be worth their lives to make another assassination attempt: Elves and Men have a long history of warfare and near-genocide, and Eruvande’s death might throw a powerful army into disarray or even cause them to depart the lands of Men altogether. Ultimately they decided against it, feeling that it would be pushing their luck too far to try it on her turf, but if they could secure a second meeting in a location of their choosing they would make the attempt.
It should be noted at this point that none of the PCs had any Beliefs related to the Elves, and that this was essentially a short follow-up scene to play out the consequences of some of their earlier actions and tests.
This is already too long, so suffice it to say that they refused to give in to Eruvande’s blackmailing, knowing full well that if Novatian refused to give them over to the Kastirans for judgment it would cause them to lay siege to the capital city, shattering the fragile peace and plunging the world into war again (it’s a choice that makes sense in context). As they were leaving, one PC slipped away and returned to speak with Eruvande in private. Realizing that he was gone and away from the protection of their sorceress, the rest of the party rushed back and prepared to rescue their friend by force if necessary. They arrived too late, and Eruvande bewitched their companion with Twisted Tongue, luring him onto the back of her giant eagle and taking to the skies. Before she could escape, the rest of the party brought out their trusty crossbows and felled the eagle in mid-flight with two bolts, while a third took the life of the Imperial battlemage Eruvande has kept chained to the bird as a trophy / plaything. The bird crashed to the ground, inflicting a Mortal Wound on Eruvande and setting off a running battle through the ruins of the Imperial Forum against Eruvande’s bodyguards as they attempted to retrieve their friend from the wreckage of the fallen bird and finish off the Etharch once and for all. In the end their no-longer-bewitched friend slew Eruvande but was captured, another PC was hunted down through the streets and felled by a Traumatic wound before being dragged off to join his friend in captivity, and a third PC took a Mortal Wound but was rescued by the last member of the group and survived.
The Dilemma
Defeating Eruvande in the midst of her guards and removing what they believe (with a small ‘b’) to be a serious threat to the race of Men at great cost to themselves is a pretty significant accomplishment, one they carried out knowing that they would probably all die in the process. Even so, they made the attempt because one of their own was about to be carried off to an unknown but probably unpleasant fate, and that feels more like Persona for personal accomplishments than Deeds. They also seem to be following the path they set for themselves when they assassinated the Kastiran queen rather than, in Luke’s words from this (http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5579) thread, a “turn away from their original goals and devote themselves to a new agenda,” even though it involved considerable sacrifice on their part.
Where I run into a disconnect is that, mechanically speaking, Eruvande’s death was vastly more difficult to accomplish, cost the PCs a great deal more to carry out, and will throw the entire setting on its head. I want to give them a nice reward for this. I have feeling they may even expect it and may feel cheated by receiving Persona instead, especially since one of them has a Mortal Wound that is taking his character out of the game for months and two more are very likely to be killed by Dark Elves, but I’m having a hard time justifying anything else based on the text of the Deeds award and statements made by Luke on these boards. Further, I’m afraid that awarding Deeds for this will create or reinforce the idea that the best way to mechanically advance their characters is to go around killing off Figures of Note. I’m not against FoNs dying off, mind you: this has been a grim and gritty setting and campaign, but I’d prefer that options other than Fight! be considered viable for dealing with the setting’s problems.
Abridged Version
My players’ characters assassinated a major setting NPC in a completely awesome way that sent the game in a new direction, was personally costly but without personal benefit, and they got Deeds for it. Now they’ve killed another one at the cost of a (survived) Mortal Wound and the capture and potential execution of two out of four party members by Dark Elves and possibly plunging the world into war again, but their motives weren't as clear-cut and altruistic: they knew she was a terrible threat and wanted her dead, but they only made the attempt because one of their companions was bewitched and about to be carried off. I’m also starting to wonder if I’m setting a bad precedent for Deeds awards by handing them out for taking down Figures of Note even at tremendous personal cost, as I'd like to avoid reinforcing the idea that the best way to handle problems (and problematic people) is with a crossbow. Help?