GR's "Song of Ice and Fire" RPG giving off BW vibes

[buzz]

Exchanges, Intrigues (DoW), die pools, tests, "burning" Destiny Points...

http://grfiles.game-host.org/gr_files/SiF_Fastplay.pdf

Just my impression, mind you. It also gives off the vaguely d20-ish vibe that a lot of designs I see these days do.

[Aramis]

"burning" points well predates BW... I first encountered the term back in the late 1980's... I forget which game system.

WFRP2 (also by Green Ronin) uses the term the same way as SIFRPG: spend them, you get them back, but have low result. Burn them, and they're gone forever, but the effect is much more dramatic.

[cathexis]

Well, permanently expending a point of something to get some awesome bonus has been referred to (at least in all of my gaming circles) as "burning a point of <whatever>" for as long as I can remember, so that on it's own doesn't really shove it in the direction of being a BW lookalike. The die mechanic reminds me of some game and I can't remember what it is (I want to say MERP, but it's been a really really long time since I've looked at it so I'm probably wrong), You're right on the money with intrigue however, that system totally reads DoW-lite, complete with a decreasing disposition and simplified maneuvers.

As for the d20 vibe, beyond the presentation style (which doe strike me as pretty heavily following the WotC style guide) I'm not really seeing it but that could just be me.

[Aramis]

Thinking about the intrigue system, a similar mechanic also appears in HeroWars, by G. Stafford. In that system, it's the extended test mechanic, for combat, for duels of wits, for sorcery duels, for races....

A starting pool of points, and actions reduce your opponents or your own points; first one out of points loses. HW used a 1d20 opposed roll mechanic... but is resonant to both BW DOW and SIFRPG Intrigue.

The d20 vibe is probably due to their look and feel being built from many d20 products. Further, GR is one of the better d20 producers. They normally do d20, so it's gonna look d20.

[luke]

Die mechanics look like WEG's Star Wars.

[cathexis]

Bam! That's the one that I was thinking of.

[Aramis]

Die mechanics are closer to EABA and L5R, really, as both are Roll X keep Y...

EABA (G. Porter/BTRC): Roll Stat+Skill keep 3
L5R (AEG): Roll Skill keep Stat or Roll Stat+Skill keep Stat (varies by edition)
D6/WEG-SW (WEG): Roll Skill (Which includes stat) keep all, wild die in later editions.
SIF (GR): Stat+Skill Keep Stat.

WHole cluster of similar approaches.

[Berandor]

I don't understand why they're putting out an Ice & Fire RPG when we already have one with BW.

[buzz]

I don't understand why they're putting out an Ice & Fire RPG when we already have one with BW.
I found it curious that the demo scenario is basically adventurers meeting in a tavern and then getting ambushed on the road. Is that particularly SoIaF? And looking at the sample PCs, I was wondering what the nun and the magistrate are supposed to do.

[buzz]

They normally do d20, so it's gonna look d20.
I guess what looked d20 to me is the stats+skills+feats, mostly centered around combat, and combat having rounds of about six seconds in which you can take one Greater and two Lesser actions. Honestly, the work GR did on WFRP2 felt the same to me as well.

Granted, these are not concepts exclusive to d20. Maybe that's just the lens through which I view a lot of mainstream systems now.

Anyway, I'm not claiming that GR is ripping anybody off. It was just interesting to see some similarities. The mechanics look pretty neat. Heck, if they are ripping off BW or other indies, that makes me happy. The more companies that get a clue, the better.

Still... I'm not sure how the rules are any more or less SoIaF than BRP, GURPS, or the d20 version GoO did a few years back.

[luke]

I am utterly mortified that Mouse Guard isn't out yet. Intrigues are similar to a Duel of Wits from BW, but they're shockingly close to what's found in MG.

-L

[Dwight]

I am utterly mortified that Mouse Guard isn't out yet. Intrigues are similar to a Duel of Wits from BW, but they're shockingly close to what's found in MG.

-L
You should have seen the "consulting fee" I managed to squeeze out of Green Ronin for passing along.... *cough* I mean nothing to see here!!!

[Dwight]

On a somewhat more serious [EDIT: and somewhat tangental :)] note , I have considered hacking the scripting conflict from Mouse Guard into BWR as another Rim option. I expect that some people I know would be more comfortable with BWR with that hack as an available option. It looks doable but not entirely straightforward. For example I'm not sure what to do with the "members of a team" emphasis that MG has.

But my heart just isn't in it at this point.

[Aramis]

Relax, Luke... its quite likely that they ripped off Greg Stafford, not you, since MG isn't in print... and the mechanics are very close to HeroWars/HeroQuest.

[stormsweeper]

It's more that people may say MG is ripping this game off, I think. The same way people will complain abut any possible Neuromancer movie as ripping off The Matrix.

Didn't they already put out a D20 game a couple years ago?

[buzz]

Didn't they already put out a D20 game a couple years ago?
The now-defunct Guardians of Order did, yes.

FWIW, SIFRPG isn't slated to be released until October. Assuming MG doesn't appear first, it'll essentially be at same time. (I seem to remember talk of MG appear in Oct or Sept, right?)

[Dwight]

The now-defunct Guardians of Order did, yes.

FWIW, SIFRPG isn't slated to be released until October. Assuming MG doesn't appear first, it'll essentially be at same time. (I seem to remember talk of MG appear in Oct or Sept, right?)
The idea is that ASP has it slated for late-Oct.

[luke]

Disposition, actions, compromise, oh my.

[Deckard]

Disposition, actions, compromise, oh my.
Well, I think that you should be proud of your job - they probably read few games (including BW/BE), chose few things from them and melted all this stuff in one. So we can call you ancestors of SoF&I RPG ;)

In addition to that - i suppose, that most of designers have got a complex about social conflicts resolutions. For example here in Poland we have got two well-known rpg projects, whose designers used scr and if you ask any designer what is most important (and innovaitive!) thing in their games, they`ll point out setting and scr ;)

[buzz]

The idea is that ASP has it slated for late-Oct.
Well, near-simultaneous release, then.

Honestly, I think MG will kick its ass. Not to mention, SIFRPG's target market will probably be utterly repulsed by the Intrigue rules. "I want to roleplay, not rollplay!" :)

[NeilFord]

I am utterly mortified that Mouse Guard isn't out yet. Intrigues are similar to a Duel of Wits from BW, but they're shockingly close to what's found in MG.

-L

We feel your pain.

And there are some of us ready to spread the word as soon as we get the green light ;)

- Neil.

[Deckard]

And there are some of us ready to spread the word as soon as we get the green light
Indeed, say only a word. Huh, so Red vs Blue again? ;)

[Ludanto]

Well, BW influence or not, I can totally see some indie influence. Bits and pieces of other games and what seems like a well thought out design philosphy. Combat and Intrigue actually feel like The Shadow of Yesterday to me, or maybe Spirit of the Century, particularly with taking Injuries, Wounds or Frustration (ie, "Consequences") to avoid being Defeated (ie, "Taken Out").

I like what I see. I'm probably going to pick it up when it becomes available. I think it might be something my more "traditional" friends would play that wouldn't bore me. Of course, I have a friend who has an irrational dislike of dice-pools, so that may be a no-go. I may be forced to engage him in an Intrigue to convince him. :)

Is it just me, or is the "dice pool" becoming, like, the default for solid RPGs (that use dice)?

[buzz]

Combat and Intrigue actually feel like The Shadow of Yesterday to me, or maybe Spirit of the Century, particularly with taking Injuries, Wounds or Frustration (ie, "Consequences") to avoid being Defeated (ie, "Taken Out").
I noticed that, too. I know Chris Pramas is a fan of SotC, fwiw.


Is it just me, or is the "dice pool" becoming, like, the default for solid RPGs (that use dice)?
Other than StoryTeller, I can't think of any RPG with significant market share that uses die pools.

They do seem popular with smaller RPGs, though.

[Dwight]

Other than StoryTeller, I can't think of any RPG with significant market share that uses die pools.
SR used to be 2nd tier. I don't know where they stand now.

[buzz]

SR used to be 2nd tier. I don't know where they stand now.
True dat.

[Aramis]

Success counting dice pools:
Old Storyteller: Expandable pool d10 dice pool, roll high, count successes vs fixed TN for difficulty minimum successes.
Really Old Storyteller: expandable d10 dice pool, roll high, count successes vs difficulty number for 1+ success
Shadowrun (pre-4th): open ended d6 dice pools, roll high & count successes against difficulty based TN
Arrowflight 1E: expandable pool d6 roll low, count successes vs Skill Level + Difficulty Mod.
Burning Wheel: d6 dice pool, roll high, count successes vs semi-fixed TN.
Space 1889: combat rolls: d6 dice pool, count successes vs TN by difficulty

Keep X dice and Total them
Prime Directive (1e): open ended d6 dice pool, keep best die. Count successes for initiative
Legend of the 5 Rings: open eneded d10 dice pool (roll stat+skill keep stat).
EABA: Roll Stat+Skill, keep 3 (keep 4 if "larger than life"), vs a TN by difficulty
Deadlands: Roll skill dX (X by stat), and keep best one.
Shillouette (Heavy Gear, Jovian Chronicles, Tribe 8): "open ended" d6 pool, keep best single die. Pool by skill. Stat adds to best die. multiples of same result count as adding 1 each to the die, so 4,4,4,5 results in a 6 for the 3 4s (4+1+1), and 2,2,2,2,2 is a 6...
Last Unicorn Games' lines: all 3 of their STRPG lines, plus DUNE, used a nearly identical mechanic to Shillouette.
Orkworld: Keep best die. some rolls open ended.

Roll pool and total them all
Star Wars: Roll Skill (which includes stat) d6 keeping all, vs a difficulty based TN.
Space 1889: non-combat rolls: d6 dice pool by skill, vs tn by difficulty

Funky Stuff with Dice pools
Sorcerer: it's a count success system, but using opposed rolls; you count successes by comparing your dice to opponent's best die.
Orkworld: damage and armor... funky but fun.

It's a dice pool but I don't know which kind:
most recent Albedo

pool: a number of dice which varies roll to roll, linked to some game stat.
expandable pool: the pool can get larger due to the roll itself. Typically, maxed dice generate extra dice. (BW does on some)
open ended: a given die can "get larger" due to some reroll mechanic.


There are lots of dice pool systems... very few do anything seriously wierd. It's a well know set of probabilities, but which are hard to calculate on the fly, but also have relatively intuitive progressions while still allowing for a range of success and failure.

[johnstone]

Rolling dice for a whole squad at a time in Warhammer (40K and fantasy) was similar to Shadowrun and BW, just with variable TNs.

Ghostbusters and Over the Edge had "roll X dice and total them" systems.

[luke]

Yes, Buzz's statement was misinformed. Please don't turn this thread into a history of the art. Thanks.

-L

[buzz]

Yes, Buzz's statement was misinformed.
Jerk!

:D

[Yagathai]

I've mentioned to George R.R. Martin (he said, dropping a name so hard it cracked the asphalt) several times that I think that BW would make the best system for ASOIAF, but what it came down to is that Green Ronin wheeled the biggest truck full of money to his agent's front yard.

George is many things, but above all he is a working writer.

[luke]

I totally appreciate that!

[buzz]

George is many things, but above all he is a working writer.
As a (former, at least) gamer, you'd hope that he'd opt for the coolest game, given a) he's already rich ten times over, and b) what a tiny revenue stream RPG licenses are.

I.e., you'd think we would pull a Jim Butcher giving the DFRPG to Evil Hat. But, alas.

[luke]

Jim is friends with the guys who run Evil Hat and Dresden isn't NEARLY the RPG license that Martin's work is.

[buzz]

Jim is friends with the guys who run Evil Hat and Dresden isn't NEARLY the RPG license that Martin's work is.
1. True.

2. Hey, the DF books are NYT bestsellers and got their own TV show for a little bit. Nothin' to sneeze at. :)

I get your point, though.

[Yagathai]

As a (former, at least) gamer, you'd hope that he'd opt for the coolest game, given a) he's already rich ten times over, and b) what a tiny revenue stream RPG licenses are.

I.e., you'd think we would pull a Jim Butcher giving the DFRPG to Evil Hat. But, alas.

I'm sure that if Green Ronin wasn't a company with an impressive pedigree and if they had pitched and/or produced a piece of crap, he'd say or do something about it, but they're not and they probably won't. Given that, I think going with the company that makes him the best offer is probably a reasonable decision for him to have made.

[Saphim]

So you are saying if Uwe Boll would pay more for the movie rights than Steven Spielberg one should let Boll make the movie? ^^

(Disclaimer: I am not saying that green ronin makes RPGs like Boll makes movies, the question is a general one)

[wreckage]

It's not a general question once you put the names Uwe Bolle or Hitler in the sentence.

[Dwight]

It's not a general question once you put the names Uwe Bolle or Hitler in the sentence.
Is this a German-hate thing you have going on? :)

[stormsweeper]

So you are saying if Uwe Boll would pay more for the movie rights than Steven Spielberg one should let Boll make the movie? ^^

(Disclaimer: I am not saying that green ronin makes RPGs like Boll makes movies, the question is a general one)

Well, you can't make money making an RPG no one buys, unlike movies.

[Aramis]

So you are saying if Uwe Boll would pay more for the movie rights than Steven Spielberg one should let Boll make the movie? ^^

(Disclaimer: I am not saying that green ronin makes RPGs like Boll makes movies, the question is a general one)

in many cases, no.

But RPG's are so small a market (couple million in the US), and any given system is likely to be only a few dozen thousand on a major success, that it's not a valid comparison.

I mean, a typical first run of a licensed game is likely in the 5,000 to 10,000 copy range. Often, they don't sell out in entirety. So an author needs to pick a healthy company with decent sales in order to get any decent money at all.

So, if it's even a quarter ($0.25) per copy in royalties per copy, it's still unlikely to be more than a couple month's housing... unless it scores BIG. Some licensed games have paid more than $1 per copy.... but still, compared with even a single low-ball movie offer ($50,000 up front, 1% of sales)....

Now, a few authors have stood on principles (Anne McCaffrey turned down SJG, apparently quite vehemently, and repeatedly) or approached their favorite companies directly (Webber approached QLI, for example).

And further, many companies don't want to do licensed work, since it incurs additional costs (oversight and royalties), and sets a very high bar from potential gamers.

[zabieru]

Also, reading between the lines of GRRM's Wild Cards forwards and essays, all that came out of a game of some system I've never heard of. Being as I'm a bit of a nerd for RPG history, I'd hazard a guess that the system wasn't very good (or I'd prolly recognize the name) and as such his view on gaming is probably biased towards the idea that what you really need is setting, imagination, and good people.

Turning the Boll/Spielberg analogy around, if your history includes some really amazing movies made from truly dire licenses, one could imagine how you'd think it wasn't that important to license good material compared to getting a strong cast, a good director, and a good screenwriter. It's pretty likely that Martin doesn't have much experience of the difference between good people sitting around playing in spite of a lame system and good people working alongside a system that carries its own weight.

[Aramis]

Given that GRRM was involved with licensing GURPS WildCards, I suspect GRRM knew what he was doing in picking Green Ronin.

Half the battle is finding competent designers, and the other is finding designers who want to do it... you really need the overlap.

And then, you get wankers like me, who come to the source material from having discovered the game first. I've started a Burning Empires campaign, but have not read anything from the novels. Between being a WH40K and Traveller fan, and what's in the book, I think I can have a good game. Might not be quite right... but none of my players are readers of it either. I did the same with GURPS WildCards... the game led me to the books. Also the same for Cyberpunk 2013 leading me to read Gibson's Neuromancer, and GURPS Humanx leading me to the Flinx novels. Albedo RPG to the Erma Felna EDF comics. GW's Judge Dredd to 2000AD. And the Dragonriders of Pern Boardgame lead me to the Pern novels.

That element has to be handled delicately: enough detail to allow those who haven't read the source to play without too much research. Which further narrows the scope for finding who wants to do it... because not everone can.

[buzz]

Also, reading between the lines of GRRM's Wild Cards forwards and essays, all that came out of a game of some system I've never heard of.
The system in question was Chaosium's Superworld RPG, based on their venerable BRP engine. It didn't light the SHRPG world on fire, but wasn't too shabby a game. It was basically BRP + Champions-style point-buy Ads/Disads. The new BRP omnibus includes all these rules.

I have a feeling that GRRM didn't base his decision on any system concerns. Does he even play RPGs any more?

[Yagathai]

Not a regular game, certainly. I think he may do the occasional nostalgia session, but that's a once-every-couple-of-years kind of thing. When we hit a hobby shop in Boston together, he ignored all of the gaming stuff and went right for the historical minis. Though he did get a kick out of the Dragon magazine with adaptations of his stuff in it.

[Saphim]

in many cases, no.

But RPG's are so small a market (couple million in the US), and any given system is likely to be only a few dozen thousand on a major success, that it's not a valid comparison.

I mean, a typical first run of a licensed game is likely in the 5,000 to 10,000 copy range. Often, they don't sell out in entirety. So an author needs to pick a healthy company with decent sales in order to get any decent money at all.

So, if it's even a quarter ($0.25) per copy in royalties per copy, it's still unlikely to be more than a couple month's housing... unless it scores BIG. Some licensed games have paid more than $1 per copy.... but still, compared with even a single low-ball movie offer ($50,000 up front, 1% of sales)....

Now, a few authors have stood on principles (Anne McCaffrey turned down SJG, apparently quite vehemently, and repeatedly) or approached their favorite companies directly (Webber approached QLI, for example).

And further, many companies don't want to do licensed work, since it incurs additional costs (oversight and royalties), and sets a very high bar from potential gamers.

You have long departed from the actual question, id est "should you decide whom to give the license to based on the amount of money they pay you for it".
The author decided by the amount of money paid up front, according to this threat, and not some theoretical return value far down the road, which is extremely unpredictable anyway like you pointed out above and therefore a bad factor to base one's decision upon.

[Dwight]

You have long departed from the actual question, id est "should you decide whom to give the license to based on the amount of money they pay you for it".
Not really. He's suggesting how little money it is anyway, so you might as well go for what you want "artistically". Is that right Aramis? Not that I necessarily agree with that. Frankly I would give "how much cash" a spot at the table. ;) Along with "how many people am I going to reach with this" and "is this going to be a good fit for how I wan my IP seen". Although BW mechanically would be a tremendous fit for Song of Ice and Fire GR has a track record too and generally isn't a producer of shoddy work either.


P.S. BW is starting to build a pattern of doing licenses that have a huge graphic component to them. Coincidence? I'm not sure. In my mind works like Iron Empires and Mouse Guard have more gaming potential without deviating from canon. You aren't competing so much with what's gone before. Even if the author has way more unpublished backstory than what's seen print, fans of the original that are playing the game aren't hamstrung as much. It's about the curse of the established setting. At least that's the way I see it. *shrug*

EDIT: Plus I find it easy to work a campaign from one or a few really invocative pieces of art. Just started the latest Burning Wheel campaign based solely off this. (http://www.jessevandijk.net/g_08_76.html) Showed that to the players as one of the options (the only one I brought with pictures) and it was an easy sell. We've built the whole world and the PCs society that they live in around what those set of pictures implies. I should probably get that into the In Play forum some time here.

[Aramis]

Essentially, both.

For many authors, only the up front money will matter, and that's peanuts compared to the pocket run of their next book (even tho' they make about $0.05 to $0.25 per copy... depending upon name recognition and sales).

For some, especially authors who are also gamers themselves, the money is low enough that they choose to build credibility instead with their license.

And for others, it's building fame. Lucas' choice of WotC for the SWRPG license probably isn't entirely built on Cash returns; WotC puts product on shelves, and keeps the name visible. It's a form of Advertising for Lucas... one that he gets to charge the medium for!

The one thing a game designer needs to keep in mind is that not everyone will be familiar with the source material, so the game needs enough to set the tone.

[ChrisG]

Weird. I popped in here to find out about the Ice & Fire RPG and instead it's a discussion about licensing... carry on.

[Aramis]

Weird. I popped in here to find out about the Ice & Fire RPG and instead it's a discussion about licensing... carry on.

Read page 1.

A preview of Green Ronin's rules for it are available online somewhere.