Having some trouble with Burning Wheel

[sacredchao]

(This is a crosspost from story-games. Also, I'm not sure if this is the best category for this question, so feel free to move it.)

We had our second game session (not including chargen) this afternoon, and things aren't really clicking for a couple reasons.

1. "It's too complicated" - this is the most common argument. For example, during a Duel of Wits, one player said "it takes too long." It was a big argument, about a big issue. It shouldn't resolve immediately. A couple beliefs and relationships were caught up in it, so it made sense to squeeze out the drama.

I've tried to explain that once we get it all down, scripting will be as second nature as flanking with a rogue. They aren't really believing me, and I don't know why. I've read the core book cover to cover, and re-read almost everything at least once. I don't have the best memory, so I have to keep looking things up. I'm doing my damnedest, but it's just a steep learning curve.

2. I've got people reading when they aren't on screen. This drives me crazy. I don't see why what the other characters are doing isn't interesting. I can't figure out if things just haven't gotten going yet, or if I'm screwing something up, or what.

Anyway, this is obviously very vague, but I'm hoping for some advice. I've promised that if it doesn't click by next session, we'll switch games, but I really don't want to. I've invested a lot of time into trying to learn these rules. SotC was a little bit difficult to pick up, but they all got it. I'm hoping that'll happen here too.

Basically, I'm looking for any advice on how I could better explain the crunch of the system. Or something. Honestly, I don't really know what I'm looking for, and I apologize for that. I'm a little agitated, and it's making it difficult to explain myself.


I'd be happy to answer any questions in a more concrete way. It will probably help my thought process to do so, as well as give you all more data to work with.


Thanks in advance!

[luke]

Hey man. I moved this to the Fevered Circle because I think this is more about gaming groups than about BW in particular.

How many players are in your group?
How many lifepaths did each player take for his character?

[sacredchao]

4 for both.

Thanks for the move. This makes more sense.

[Hirram]

Hey, I'm in the midst of my first-ever campaign of BW, so I'm not an expert, but I'll give it a shot.

1. It might be best to stick with opposed rolls and Bloody Versus until you and the players have the rest of the system down pat. Perhaps run a side combat or DoW separately so that players can get the hang of it without worrying about having their characters killed off or significantly imposed simply because they don't understand the system yet. It IS a steep learning curve, but it's worth it. Also, the players might be giving you flak because it's simply so different from most systems out there, particularly D20.

2. Are there conflicts that bang on more than one character's beliefs? With a well-formed group, most scenes will involve most or all of the party. Even in a DoW, other characters have a role. Encourage them to give helping dice- and remember that to give a helping die, the player has to narrate exactly how their character is helping. For example, when the other two characters in my party were arguing over what to do with a captured cultist, I kept tossing in helpful tidbits to support turning her over to authorities: according to my faith, only lawful authorities can dispense justice (Heretical Doctrine; my faith is a major component of the campaign), the cultists don't want public exposure, which a captured cultist will provide (Cult Doctrine), and the authorities will take a dim view of cults that pose a threat to their power (Bureaucracy). Even though I wasn't a primary player, I was involved all the way through.

Hope this helps.

[Berandor]

I have a player in my online game who also complains of BW's complexity, and I know he likes as little rules as possible. We're playing without scripted fights right now, and without DoW, and he said he shudders when he thinks of how complicated it will probably be.

I told him the same you said yourself above. When you have it down, the rules flow quite well. Once you stop thinking about what possible actions you can perform and start thinking of (for example) your argument before putting that into mechanical terms, you're set.

Then again, there are different playing styles, and I know my player for example will never be completely happy with BW, he'll just be fine. Not everything's for everyone.

[pseudoidiot]

Personally, I've never really understood the "it's too complex" argument.*

I remember when I first started playing D&D. Holy crap that was a lot of stuff to know! Yeah, there was tons of page-flipping in the beginning. And even when things came up that weren't particularly common. But eventually a lot of that stuff became really second-nature. I say D&D, but that goes for a lot of other games I've played over the years as well.

I think when it comes to BW it's more about subtlety than complexity. The rules all fit together in a lot of ways that aren't really immediately apparent.

Also, you might just try sticking to the Rim for a while at first. Make sure to push intent/stakes pretty hard. As they get comfortable with that, chances are they're going to want to start trying out the more 'fiddly' bits, especially when a lot is riding on something -- "man, this is really important, I hate for this to be decided by just one roll!" -- "it doesn't have to! let's break out the scripting sheets and try out <fight/DoW>"

And like Hirram said running a DoW or Fight on the side will go a long way. During some downtime before or after a session run through an exchange to help get them more comfortable with it.

*except for cases like Berandor mentioned above where someone just doesn't like rules-heavy games.

[luke]

On SG, you mentioned that you weren't using the scripting sheets. I think that's a big mistake, too. The sheets really make DoW and Fight! easier to use. Instead of having to remember, you just check off what you want. They're reusable, too. Just erase and go again.

-L

[Verrain]

On SG, you mentioned that you weren't using the scripting sheets. I think that's a big mistake, too. The sheets really make DoW and Fight! easier to use. Instead of having to remember, you just check off what you want. They're reusable, too. Just erase and go again.-L

Or if you are getting real fancy, place them in a plastic sleeve or laminate them, and then use dry erase markers. Reusable forever with no eraser damage.

I've only played once with a group and what really helped us was having two of us that knew the rules. The GM and I were both on here asking questions and doing mock battles in the Arena. When it came time to bust out Duel of Wits or Fight, I could be the coach in the corner for the other players and backup rule memory for the GM. Things went pretty smoothly as a result. So see if you can get the player that is handling things best to help you out.

[luke]

Some more questions:

Why isn't everyone involved in the scenes? Why are you using a "build up" strategy when things are going slowly and people are complaining that they're bored?

Can we see the Beliefs?

[sacredchao]

So it looks like we'll try playing using just versus tests for now. (Sidenote - does that mean I should use oratory vs oratory (or intimidation, rhetoric, etc.) to decide arguments?)

We'll also be sure to use scripting sheets. I like the laminating idea. We're all a little hippieish when it comes to waste, so the idea of being able to easily reuse them appeals.

Beliefs:

Insel Exerot - Wealthy daughter of a rich merchant, murdered at sea
1.I hate Cpt. Bergen because he killed my father, and I will destroy him
2.Family is all that matters, and it comes first
3.I want to be independent and self sufficient. I am working to find my own place in society.

Agaetis Byrjum - Soon-to-be Knight of the Church
1. I will protect the church, for I walk in the Father's footsteps.
2. I will aid those in need.
3. I believe humanity is the one pure race.
*Obviously, these are a little weak. I kept trying and trying to get him to add something to them, but he keeps fighting me. I don't really know why. Also, he has an empty slot owing to one of his traits. We will probably try to fill it as play continues and he gets a feel for whats going on.

Stroheim Frighald - "Barbarian" adopted at an early age. Just came back from a war against his biological kin, and was told by his adopted parents where he came from.
1. Loyalty is Eternal and those who earn it will always have my aid
2. If intimidation doesn't work, blood will flow *just occurred to me that this sounds like an instinct.
3.Finding my people is all that matters (referring to his biological kin).

Staralfur - Elf - daughter of the Elven diplomats to the human kingdom, currently the Second of a Sword Singer, fairly high up in the line to become the Etharch.
*Note - Elves and Dwarves only live to be 300 in this world. They don't know why, and it has caused a schism in their society - some want to spend all their effort regaining their immortality, others want to adapt
1. Elves must learn from humans, or we will die
2. My mentor is dead sexy, and I will do anything to keep her *refers to her Sword Singer. Yes, we have a taboo lesbian romantic relationship between hot elven chicks. Interesting enough, the player is a woman, and I'm pretty sure this isn't one of her sexual fantasies.
3.I'll do anything within reason to avoid the throne, if it comes to it.

I'm not really sure what you mean by "build-up" strategy. Everything has started pretty much "in media res." We've been having pretty short sessions, unfortunately, so they've been pretty much all action.

The knight chose not to pursue a particular quest, as it would have meant aiding non-humans, which he isn't particularly inclined to do. I had to divide time between him and the rest of the group. Other then that, everyone has been together.

I'm trying to make sure that things bang on everyone's BITs, at least a little bit.

[stormsweeper]

First off, they should have some common focus for beliefs. Looking at those, I couldn't really tell you what the game is about, or how any of the characters is related to another.

Secondly, they're all too vague, and they mostly sound like "character" stuff and not player priorities.

Unrelated to the beliefs:
I second Verrain's advice about getting a "wingman" to help with the rules.

[Verrain]

Well I see part of the problem now. Those beliefs are all over the map. You really have to go through some mental gymnastics to come up with bangs that hit more than one. Before you guys play again, I would suggest sitting down with them and rework the beliefs so that they all have one that references the same thing.

In that previous game I mentioned the base premise was a great church whose head was dying and whose followers were itching for a crusade. So, the characters were a servant of the church head, a knight turned prophet who was a friend of the church head, a priest that wanted to see his bishop made the new church head, and an elf sent to observe the proceedings. Guess which player was hardest to get involved in the plot. You've got that problem going four ways.

[Hirram]

I agree- it really helps if the character's beliefs either dovetail, so the same situation can threaten more than one character's beliefs; or if characters' beliefs are in opposition to each other, so you can have conflict between characters. As it is, it seems like the characters have no real reason to even work with or against each other, or even form a party.

Also, don't let the knight wuss out and just say "my character wouldn't help" because they're non-human. Get involved, whether it's for or against. Don't like non-humans? Work against them, then. In fact, drop a belief and add something like "those elves have cheated us out of our birthright. I will do everything I can to make them pay."

[John Anderson]

On top of the advice given regarding beliefs, what I'm finding really helpful is spending 10-15 minutes at the beginning of each session going around each player and quickly going through each Belief. We look at whether each belief is still relevant, whether it's still working and whether it has or needs to be changed or tweaked. It also helps reinforce the centrality of those beliefs in play and is time well spent.
John

[Paul B]

Re. getting your Beliefs lined up, check out this page on the wiki (http://www.burningempires.com/wiki/index.php?title=Beliefs). Follow the links in there back to the referenced discussions, which are also interesting. I wrote it for Burning Empires, but IMO it all applies well to BW.

Over at RPG.net, I wrote this as part of a larger thread (http://forum.rpg.net/showpost.php?p=9129831&postcount=20). Might be useful in helping you figure out why things fit together the way they do, which in turn might help explain to your "it's too complicated" players why things work the way they do.

In my experience with BW, many of the systems exist specifically to frustrate the natural assumptions and expectations of experienced gamers. If everyone knows that going in, then they might go with the flow a little more. The first few times my groups played BW, there were a lot of assumptions about either a) how RPGs are "supposed to work" and/or b) how BW specifically is "supposed to work," which IME at least is hard to eyeball just from reading.

Keep asking questions!

p.

[sacredchao]

Secondly, they're all too vague, and they mostly sound like "character" stuff and not player priorities.


Im not sure exactly what you mean. Would you mind explaining a little more?

It looks like we'll need to do some belief rebuilding. Hopefully it won't be too painful. It was a little bit like pulling teeth last time.

[Paul B]

I have some theories about this, but first I have to ask: Why do you think it was like pulling teeth? What was it about the players' expectations or needs that made Belief-writing such an unpleasant experience for them?

(On the flip side: when you have players who are good at, and enjoy, writing their Beliefs, they're practically jumping out of their chairs with excitement at the prospect of seeing them play themselves out in the game fiction.)

p.

[johnstone]

sacredchao, those Beliefs are exactly why I explicitly separated Beliefs and Goals for my game - thread is here. (http://burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?t=6324)

But when the other guys says their too scattered? Yeah - they're right!


Also, if players are bored, fuck with their shit. They all have stuff about their characters they really like. Maybe the elf has some nice, shiny, elven gear. So when the barbarian gets in a Duel of Wits with a merchant, and the elf player is reading, just say, "if the merchant wins, you give him all the elf's gear." Maybe the barbarian will end up with a helping die from the elf? Or, you know, if the elf loses a DoW, she has to give the guy who wants to be Pope some "medicine" that he's too stubborn to take himself... This tactic seems to work in any game...

[sacredchao]

I have some theories about this, but first I have to ask: Why do you think it was like pulling teeth? What was it about the players' expectations or needs that made Belief-writing such an unpleasant experience for them?


I think it's being used to traditional games, honestly, and wanting me to do everything and just let them hack through it. It's actually the most difficult with the player who has the most gaming experience (the soon-to-be knight). I'd very much like to hear your guess, though, as I'm not too sure about this answer.

The elf has two beliefs that I really like - the "learn from humans" one, and the "dead sexy" one - and she has the least experience of all our players. The learn from humans is obviously a very long-term sort of goal, but I can start kicking at the "dead sexy" one at any moment.


On the issue of rewriting beliefs, I should probably make sure I have a handle on them first, before asking for the players to make better ones. So, my wife and I just wrote three IRL beliefs:

1. We need to be able to pay the bills, therefore I need to find a new job, quick
2. I want to be a writer, so I will get into an MFA program as well as write on the side.
3. I love my wife and will do anything to stay with her.

There is an immediate, a soon to come, and a long-term beliefs. I was under the impression that beliefs were supposed to state the goals. I haven't read the linked thread yet, so that's what I was going on when I wrote these.

[sacredchao]

I've started reading that thread. That makes a LOT of sense and has clarified things for me quite a bit. I think I will be able to explain a bit better next time. Actually, just reading those first few posts has rekindled my excitement for the system, which had been waning lately due to the difficulties we've been having. So, thanks!

I'd still love more feedback though, especially with the beliefs I just posted (can never get too much help).

Also, what about longer term goals? Would you just break them down and deal with them piece by piece? For example, w/ the elf's belief that "We must learn from the humans or die," would it be appropriate to leave it at "We must learn from the humans or die, so I will study them and learn," for a long time, then change it once the learning or dying is complete? Or should it be more specific, and then change as things shift, such as "...or die, so I will help them find (MacGuffin name here)," then once that's resolved, change it to "...or die, so I will help them rebuild their temple," or something different entirely?

[johnstone]

1. We need to be able to pay the bills, therefore I need to find a new job, quick
2. I want to be a writer, so I will get into an MFA program as well as write on the side.
3. I love my wife and will do anything to stay with her.

There is an immediate, a soon to come, and a long-term beliefs. I was under the impression that beliefs were supposed to state the goals. I haven't read the linked thread yet, so that's what I was going on when I wrote these.

Those rock pretty hard, actually. Especially the first two. If I was your GM, all I'd ask for (and I wouldn't need it) is something that threatens your relationship - what might pull you and your wife apart? Or is there something you need to do reaffirm that commitment? Maybe you just need to win a DoW with her...

But what about your wife's Beliefs?
Here's one: I want my husband around the house more often. I'll make sure he turns to writing instead of getting another job.

The straight opposition: I want my husband around more, I'll keep him from getting a new job. This means one of you gets a Persona point.

The support: I'd rather be married to a writer, so I'll make my husband to write. This means you both get the Persona, or you both fail.

But see? I managed to combine them! I don't see that happen very often.


Short version of my thread:
I let people write the kinds of beliefs they always write, then I get them to write a goal for each one - what is that belief driving you to do, specifically, right now, this very session? And hopefully thats easier to understand than having to write a belief that also has a goal in it.

[johnstone]

Also, what about longer term goals? Would you just break them down and deal with them piece by piece? For example, w/ the elf's belief that "We must learn from the humans or die," would it be appropriate to leave it at "We must learn from the humans or die, so I will study them and learn," for a long time, then change it once the learning or dying is complete? Or should it be more specific, and then change as things shift, such as "...or die, so I will help them find (MacGuffin name here)," then once that's resolved, change it to "...or die, so I will help them rebuild their temple," or something different entirely?

Hypothetical series of adventures:

1.
"We must learn from the humans or die, so I will help them recover the library in the abandoned temple."

The elf goes into the temple, defeats the Manticore that lives there, and gains access to the library. Persona point.


2.
"We must learn from the humans or die, so I will make copies of the important books and take them back to my citadel."

She copies them out, and defeats some orc scouts to get back home again. Persona point.


3.
"We must learn from the humans or die, so I will retrieve the knowledge of cannon-making so we can use these weapons against the orcs."

She goes back to a human city, but fails to convince a cannon-maker to help the elves. He just wants too much money. Fail!

3.5 [EDIT]
She doesn't want to change the Belief (Goal) just yet. She tries again, from a different angle.
"We must learn from the humans or die, so I will retrieve the knowledge of cannon-making so we can use these weapons against the orcs."

Instead, she tries to break into the cannon-makers' guildhouse and steal their plans. But she is discovered, a chase ensues, she kills the corrupt sergeant of the city guards who fined (ie extorted) her last session and takes her money back. But instead of finding plans, she gets chased out of the city. Now she decides to change the Belief.

4.
"We must learn from the humans or die, so I will discover the source of these expensive spices that make them rich."

Several adventures later, she has traced the spice route back through several countries, and made numerous contacts along the way. Persona point.


5.
"We must learn from the humans or die, so I will use my new wealth to bring the knowledge of cannon-making home, to fight the orcs."

Since her Resources has gone up a point or two, she can now afford to convince a cannon-maker (or two) to pack up and move to Elfland. Maybe with a few helping dice from her fellow PCs, who have also raised their Resources stats. Persona point.


6.
"We must learn from the humans or die, so I will convince other elves to visit them and frequent their trade routes."

Ooh. So now she has to DoW some elf or two in order to get them to travel through the human lands just like she did. And probably get involved in trading, or at least selling their superior crafts in human markets. Good thing she's racked up all those Persona points...

ALSO EDIT: Like Hirram says, she gets a Fate point for each step of the way, succeed of fail.


Makes sense, right?

[Hirram]

Re: Belief revision #3, above: though the elf may have failed to complete the goal and earn a Persona point, they still get a Fate point for pursuing it!

[Paul B]

I think your thoughts on your experienced RPer expecting you to do all the work and then hack through it is on the money, Ryan. I would add the following:

Writing Beliefs involves taking some emotional risk on the part of the player. He's telling everyone, "This is what interests me, and this is what I care about." And it's described at a more explicit level than what you find even among the most introspective trad gamers.

Another part of the risk of writing a Belief is that most players understand that they're handing over a list of things the GM will push, prod and challenge. For long-time players who have been dicked over by unfair GMs, that's tantamount to hanging a "kick me!" sign on their own back. I have a player who will never, ever play BW again because of this! He's like, "Why should I tell you the things I want the most?" Beliefs are a strongly authorial tool, and one of the anti-actor things in BW that "all immersion all the time" players glom onto as a "flaw" of the game.

There's also the whole "responsibility for your own fun" part of the equation. You've written a Belief and placed your trust in the GM to challenge it in a fun way -- but the bottom line is, it's on you to know what you'll find fun. Under the traditional gaming model, if a session sucks, the GM gets the blame. In BW, everyone shoulders the responsibility together.

And finally, there's just inexperience with Beliefs and the Artha cycle in general. A BW newb won't fully appreciate how Beliefs shape play when they start. Like...say they write a good Belief, something like "I am destined to unseat my brother and become King of the realm. My first step is to travel to his castle and make friends among the servants." What a new BW player won't get the first time is that you're giving the GM camera instructions: traveling to the castle is important, and making friends among the servants is important. They might not fully grasp that those are the two things the GM will seek to complicate. Worse, they'll understand that dynamic but will assume the GM is just gonna cock-block them until he sees fit to "let you" succeed. Usually the cock-blocking is better hidden in a trad game, right?

So, anyway, several angles on where the friction might be coming from.

I like your "real life" Beliefs, by the way. If I were your GM, I'd be looking for ways to aim your own Beliefs at themselves: Offer you a job that takes you away from your wife, give you a writing opportunity that requires you stop looking for work, etc. Individually, your "real life" adventures practically write themselves: Job opportunities that collide with your Instincts and Traits, hilarity at the college when you try and sign up for the MFA program in time, discovering your wife in an affair (assuming she's an NPC).

p.

[sacredchao]

Awesome. I think something has clicked for me. I think I was looking at the game from the wrong angle - I was thinking, basically from a trad gaming angle, but adding on beliefs. So, in my head, I was running things the same way I would a D&D game and trying to challenge the beliefs along the way, when what I really needed to be doing was challenging the beliefs.

So, basically, I have them write beliefs (which should somehow coincide, otherwise, why would they be working together in the first place?). Then, I have them write a goal for each belief that could be remedied within the next session or two (again, these should overlap, though they might not be the same, and could possibly be contradictory). Then, I let them head for that goal, and make it difficult along the way. They succeed or fail, earning either a persona or fate point, and then change the goal, but not necessarilly the belief.

At the same time, I should make things happen that challenge the philosophical basis for the belief. For example, the knight could find corruption within the church, challenging his belief that the church is the most wonderfullest thing ever.

So, am I getting it, or am I still lost in the woods?

[sacredchao]

There's also the whole "responsibility for your own fun" part of the equation. You've written a Belief and placed your trust in the GM to challenge it in a fun way -- but the bottom line is, it's on you to know what you'll find fun. Under the traditional gaming model, if a session sucks, the GM gets the blame. In BW, everyone shoulders the responsibility together.


I've been talking a lot about this lately. They bought into the whole "I don't want to tell you to use the restroom, then make sure you don't miss your carpool" thing from Kill Puppies for Satan. However, I think it may be a little while before they go from buying into it in theory and actually doing it. So there will still have to be a bit of hand holding, which kind of sucks, as GM'ing a new system is always difficult enough as it is.


Also, I wish one of you were actually the GM for my life. Then I'd at least know my obstacles and know that you kinda wanted me to succeed, at least a little, deep down in your cold, hard GM hearts. My current GM? Not so sure if he or she cares if I get into NYU, Fresno State, or nowhere, ya know? ;)

[Hirram]

They don't necessarily need to change the goal if they fail, if they want to approach it from another angle. They can if they want, with your approval.

But yeah, I think you've pretty much got it- characters' goals can either coincide or conflict, but there should be some relationship between them. In my current game, for example, the other two characters both have beliefs about following/protecting me, while I'm pretty much built to get myself in trouble. At the same time, I want to convert one of the other players to my religion, but he thinks he's not worth it. We all have certain plot goals more or less in common: find the murderer, hunt down the slimy advisor, etc.

From my small amount of experience, if the beliefs are well-written, the game will pretty much direct itself.

[Paul B]

Ryan:

In short, you got it.

p.

[Z-Dog]

I nominate Paul to write a wiki article on Beliefs.

[Paul B]

Well...I've got the one over on the BE wiki that's a pretty good how-to. Different material than that last post, though, and it's all just recapping stuff Thor's been saying for years.

Everything I know about Beliefs comes from these boards, anyway. I don't know that I have any particularly clever revelations.

p.

[johnstone]

They don't necessarily need to change the goal if they fail, if they want to approach it from another angle.

Oh, good call. I edited my example above to include this situation.

[ChrisG]

One idea that I'm going to try the next time I introduce people to BW is to have each player write one Belief. It'll be about the situation or mission. Period.

I think that'll be easier to figure out for people who are used to the whole "we're adventurers! we adventure!" type game. The rest we can write during play. My hope is that once they figure out the Artha cycle, they'll want to get those written and take on more goals.

[Hirram]

That is one of the big differences, actually. Other RPG's create characters who fill certain roles, or certain professions, etc. That's actually less important in BW (though it's still done more realistically and deeply here): what's important is what the character WANTS. I think your idea is a great one- not only does it get them right into the action, it reinforces the idea that it's a character-driven story.

[BobSlaughter]

I nominate Paul to write a wiki article on Beliefs.

Well...I've got the one over on the BE wiki that's a pretty good how-to. Different material than that last post, though, and it's all just recapping stuff Thor's been saying for years.

Everything I know about Beliefs comes from these boards, anyway. I don't know that I have any particularly clever revelations.

p.

While I'd love some additional clever revelations, I second the request, because you have a knack for pulling together the concepts and summarizing in a very useful and clear way. We all need to pitch in, because Luke and Thor and the rest of BWHQ can't do it all.

[Paul B]

Oh man...performance anxiety.

I'll see what I can pull together. I'd really like to be able to source everything, but I've got it all so internalized now that I can't be sure where I first heard/learned something (mostly I resort to, "Thor said it first," and that seems to cover most cases).

p.

[ChrisG]

Oh man...performance anxiety.

Hey, no pressure. Just amazingly pithy and insightful prose is enough.

Also, you should know that we're relying on you to make our next games successful.

No pressure.

[luke]

Don't worry too much about attribution of stuff said on the forums, just go for it. If it's in the books, please do attribute it!

[Judd]

One outline that I dig is:

One Belief about the situation at hand, a concrete goal.

One Belief about the other characters, again something concrete.

One long term Belief or some kind of philosophical Belief that the character can grind up against during play for ze Fate artha.

[Paul B]

Judd -- that's my go-to formula as well! It works so well that sometimes I worry that I'm not experimenting enough with other schemes.

The must-have Beliefs that come from various campaign burner questions in Blossoms are also good. I'm wondering if maybe the fact you have an Emotional Attribute couldn't also carry with it a related Belief.

If anyone else has a fully functional menu list of Belief jumping-off points, I'd love to hear it (probably in another thread).

p.

[Skinnyghost]

I know this isn't particularly helpful, but I wanted to point out that it's sort of amazing that you have a character named after a Sigur Ros album.

[Paul B]

I know this isn't particularly helpful, but I wanted to point out that it's sort of amazing that you have a character named after a Sigur Ros album.

Good luck pronouncing the evil wizard in that campaign, ( ).

p.

[sacredchao]

I know this isn't particularly helpful, but I wanted to point out that it's sort of amazing that you have a character named after a Sigur Ros album.

I think two of them are, actually. I don't know the band, but my players seem to dig them.

[zipht]

One outline that I dig is..

Added to the Wiki..

http://www.burningwheel.org/wiki/index.php?title=Belief_workshop

I should point out that the wiki has lots of good advice in it..

http://www.burningwheel.org/wiki/index.php?title=Introduction_To_The_Rules

http://www.burningwheel.org/wiki/index.php?title=Makin'_Rolls (http://www.burningwheel.org/wiki/index.php?title=Makin%27_Rolls)

http://www.burningwheel.org/wiki/index.php?title=Fight!_Mechanics_Outline (http://www.burningwheel.org/wiki/index.php?title=Fight%21_Mechanics_Outline)

Nick

[sacredchao]

Ok, so the game went a little better today. I think one player may just quit soon, anyway. He seems bored, and I don't think it's my fault. More of a general refusal to engage with the game, for no apparent reason. Another player almost quit (probably due to the irritation from before, and me now saying we have to basically start fresh), but I managed to get her interested again, I think. Either that, or she's just pretending to make everyone else happy. Im going to assume she's interested for now.

I haven't quite got a handle on running it, since it's mostly off the cuff, but I'm getting there. Any good threads/advice on that? It's cerainly a different style then the story before (or whatever it's called when the GM comes up w/ the story beforehand) that I'm used to running.

Thanks for everything! It looks like you all may have helped save our game. I think I'll know for sure next week.

[Glendower]

I haven't quite got a handle on running it, since it's mostly off the cuff, but I'm getting there. Any good threads/advice on that? It's certainly a different style then the story before (or whatever it's called when the GM comes up w/ the story beforehand) that I'm used to running.


I think that any game benefits from a little preparation. This game benefits from it quite well, as you have to remember that your main job is to push and prod the characters with situations that challenge them.

To help you, the players decide what they want to have challenged with their Beliefs, Instincts, Traits and Relationships (BITRs). Think of the BITRs as the backbone to the story you are going to tell. Everything you do should put pressure on them at all times. You can do a great deal of prep before games if you feel more comfortable doing so, you just have to do it with the BITRs constantly in mind.

The players may decide what they want you to challenge, but it is up to you to decide HOW they are challenged. You come up with the hurdles and obstacles. And they don't just have to be things that the character comes up against if they do something, it can also be things that attack the characters beliefs directly.

For example. Let's take one of your characters, Insel Exerot.



I hate Cpt. Bergen because he killed my father, and I will destroy him

Awesome! Cpt. Bergen needs a destroying. So he needs to be surrounded by his cronies. Highly placed. Loved by the people. You need to make this guy challenging to destroy, make the cost high and the consequences dire. This Cpt. probably needs beliefs of his own to help play him, and I'd put all of his beliefs directly contradictory to what Insel wants.

In fact, since he's named, he could benefit from you burning a complete set of stats. Give him some personality. The player cares about the Captain. It would help to know some stats for when that destroying occurs.



Family is all that matters, and it comes first


Belief one and two demand to be put together. What if the Captain is wooing Insel's widowed Mother? Or his sister? Aunt? Cousin? And more to the fact, they are in love with him? Maybe there's a wedding in the works, whispers of a child on the way.

Introduce a few scenes where the Captain has one of his flunkies bring flowers to the family estate, or scented envelopes filled with love poetry, or a carriage waiting to pick up the blushing family member to a private dinner with the Captain.

To make this much worse, you have the Captain sincere in his affections. Force the character to choose whether or not he should destroy the Captain, or have family come first. By going against one and following another, the character is rewarded with artha.

You could also introduce a family member who is in the Captain's command. Have that brother/cousin/uncle fiercely loyal to the Captain. Have him spy for the Captain at Insel's estate.



I want to be independent and self sufficient. I am working to find my own place in society.

Maybe the Captain is higly placed. Maybe marriage to him would ensure the family's future. Family first, right? And maybe the Captain just sent you flowers and candy and a coach for a private dinner? Family first? Destroy the Captain? Self-Sufficient?

The family should challenge this with threats of marrying off to suitors for the purpose of merging businesses, or for a rise in family status. This threatens the independance, but doesn't family come first? Maybe you go from a financial angle? Cousin so and so is in debt, and will be in prison if you don't pay. Maybe she needs to take out a loan? But what about independance?

You can create dozens of situations to challenge the character before play. By focusing on the beliefs, you are creating situations that they'll actually care about.

Now, the secret here is to have each situation possibly hit another character's belief, and then you get people helping each other out.

You have a bit of a problem in that the beliefs are all over the place, but it isn't impossible.

Here's an example. You take one of Insel's family, a cousin, have the Captain put the cousin in debt, and have them flee to take refuge in the church. You have angry debtors hammering on the Church door, the cousin begging Agaetis for aid, the old Priest demanding that the cousin be thrown to the debtors before the mob outside attacks and defaces the church.

Then have the Captain willing to help in exchange for public declaration of Insel's being betrothed to him, otherwise there will be no assistance to the cousin or the church. That's a situation that demands the players DO SOMETHING.

These are just ideas to get you going. Remember, you want to hammer on those beliefs, and challenge them. You never listed instincts, but they are also fertile grounds for story ideas. you want to create situations where those instincts go off.

And by all means you can create this beforehand. Think of it as similar to what you were doing before, just this time you happen to know exactly what the players will actually care about story-wise.

[Paul B]

Ryan, don't be dismayed by the fact that a player or two gets turned off by BW -- it's not the game for everyone. For a variety of reasons, people respond very strongly either in favor of it or against it. I see it all the time! I also have a couple players in one of my groups that are avowed BW-haters. The thing is, even if you talk through what they think the issues are, they'll still hate the game because it requires stuff from the players that some players just don't want/need.

Jon's got a ton of good advice up there. I'd also add that a conversation with your players about the suitability of conflicts among PCs is probably in order. You can generate a lot of great situations by aiming PCs at each other, but the players *must* be on board with that. If you have players who aren't comfortable aiming their make-believe at each other, stay away from that.

Now...if you get players who are on-board with letting their characters (occassionally) have conflicts of interest, there's a ton of material to be mined from it. To sweeten the deal, I'd remind the players that everyone benefits Artha-wise when they mutually pop each others' Beliefs. It takes a strongly authorial style of play -- the players must know the Beliefs of the other characters without messing up the suspension of disbelief inside the game fiction -- and that, again, might be a deal-breaker for some players.

p.

[sacredchao]

Yeah, I guess you're right about prepping. Since we went directly from rewriting everyones beliefs to playing, it was off the cuff at that moment. Obviously, now that things have started moving I can plan ahead. Don't know why I didn't realize it before.

Thanks for the story ideas as well - I'll probably steal one or two, somewhere along the way. :)

[Dwight]

Don't know why I didn't realize it before.
Maybe because the details you plan and what you plan around are different? The prep work is largely confined to creating NPCs. Load those up with potential for conflict with the PCs . What you don't want to do is set in your mind the path that will result, AKA the plot. The choices of the players/PCs and the outcome from the conflict are very much unknowns, to everyone. This last item is why BWR is, in my opinion, generally more sensitive to overplanning. If you get in your head that you know how all this is going to play out you:
1) consciously or not start, you start blocking off player choices/input
2) have uneven prep work and can find yourself somewhere you aren't ready at all for
3) #2 happens after you've being hyper-prepared has let your skills for handling low-(but not no)-prep situations slide

To use an analogy of the premise of your game as terrain, the Beliefs act as landmarks that you will be constantly aiming for. Whatever happens the PCs should be constantly advancing towards these. They will get pushed sideways all over the wilderness by their immediate failures. The failures [i]should happen because it's what adds the interesting parts to the journey. Enough failures and they can be coming at that landmark from a totally different angle. But it should always be towards those landmarks. This allows you to plan and prep the obstacles.

That's why it's important that all the PCs have these landmarks close together in concept. Otherwise you aren't all headed in the same direction. Total headache.

[sacredchao]

So I have a couple of ideas I want to run by everyone. Basically, I want the next session to sing, thereby giving everyone the confidence in BW they need to play. Reading all these posts, plus several other threads (on that note, I'd like to apologize for making all the regulars answer the same questions AGAIN that they have five billion times before) has made me really excited about BW, and beliefs in particular.

The adopted barbarian guy has a belief that (basically) says "I have a loyalty to the paladin character" and the current goal is to "save him from the Children of the Apocalypse" (The Children of the Apocalypse are a sect within the church. Sectarianism is OK for this church, but things can get rough sometimes, especially when it comes to the "the end is nigh" types). The paladin character has a "hateful" relationship w/ an uncle who is high up in the Children sect, plus a belief to destroy him. This paladin is currently the favorite of a very political bishop within one of the other sects. Obviously, the drama writes itself.

The question is this: since the barbarian player has said that he has seen people following the paladin, but has not yet told the paladin, as he wants to gather more information, should I hammer this belief, or wait for the player to make the first move?

In the very first game I ever played with this player, he really pushed hard on his own drama, and took the game in some very interesting directions. However, he has since sort of slacked off, and during our SotC game, he hardly made a move w/out the other players pretty much forcing him to. Basically I'm hoping that he will start looking for info, and really get his head back in the game. I worry that if I hammer the belief, he will remain in a reactive mode, rather then take the reins.

Second question - more of a "make sure I'm doing this right": The elf's lover/sword master came home w/ a large bruise on her stomach, and wouldn't say why. The elf tried to get her to say, but lost a persuasion roll. (Sub question: at what point should "let it roll" no longer apply in this situation? I'm thinking "until something significant changes the PC's reason to ask, or gives her reason to press harder.) I've got two thoughts as to who is beating her up at the moment, but I haven't actually made a decision yet (it's between a particular group of NPC's, or some demon-y things that come after her every now and again).

Anyway, the PC's current belief-goal is to persuade her lover to join her and "come out of the closet" with the PC's parents. This is taboo, as they are master and apprentice (we decided elves don't care about homosexuality, but that this sort of thing is frowned on. We've not really decided to what extent they do the frowning, though). I'm thinking this would be a great time to change the goal from "get her to come out of the closet," to "find out why she has bruises and won't tell me" or "why she won't tell me where the bruises are from" or something of the sort. Am I correct?

A minor technical question: What skill should I roll for "searching for stuff"? I figure whether you find stuff or not could change how a PC pursues something, so there'd be a roll. Or does everyone just go w/ "say yes" on this one? I can definitely see an advantage to that as well.

There were a couple other, minor, things on my mind, but I can't remember right now. I'll post them later if I do.

[Hirram]

First off, I don't think it's at all inappropriate, particularly with a group new to Burning Wheel, to remind them that Artha is, at its heart, a reward system for creating interesting characters (Beliefs and Instincts) and for being proactive. Let him see the people following the paladin again, and explicitly remind him that he'll receive Fate artha for investigating them. In fact, offer to let him modify the Belief a bit to be more specific- for example, change it to something like "the paladin is a good man, and I will protect him. I will learn the identity of the men following him." Now he gets Fate for investigating them, and if he succeeds in figuring out who they are he gets a Persona point ... but he only gets it if he's proactive and investigates them. Don't be afraid to state that point explicitly.

As to your second question, I say yes- the Persuasion roll was correct, and Let It Ride holds until the situation materially changes, no matter how long the situation persists.

If changing the goal aligns better with the current direction of the game, I say change it. If the situation is resolved, the "coming out" belief can be written in again.

For "searching for stuff", if you mean seeing physical items, that's generally a straight-up Perception roll. If they're searching for hidden people, you can use Observation. If you're searching for information, Wises are generally your best bet. Should you make them roll? It depends on which makes for a more interesting game- the hunt for that information/item/person, or the consequences of finding it. If the main conflict is how they deal with it, I'd just say yes.

[sacredchao]

Thanks for all that. And I meant physical items. We used straight perception before, but I wanted to make sure I was doing it right.

[Paul B]

"Searching for stuff" as in looking for useful items? Foraging.

EDIT: DUH. Not Foraging. I meant Scavenging.

[sacredchao]

I was meaning more of the Sherlock Holmes variety of searching.

[wreckage]

Observation?

"You look, Watson, but you do not observe." -Sherlock Holmes, in some short story or other.

[Hirram]

Observation?

"You look, Watson, but you do not observe." -Sherlock Holmes, in some short story or other.

Nope- IIRC in the description of the Observation skill, it specifically says it is only for finding hidden or concealed persons, and that for searching/spotting objects and the like you should use a straight Perception roll.

[Thor]

I'm not sure I understand what you're searching for. Scavenging is the skill I would normally turn to. You state what you're looking for, the GM sets the Ob based on the Scavenging guidelines and you're good to go.

Are you looking for clues? Then Perception is probably appropriate.

[Paul B]

Honestly, I might even go so far as to have them open "Clues-wise" if he's the sort of character that knows a clue when he sees it.

p.

[sacredchao]

I just mean looking for hidden things - clues or whatnot.
Not useful items to scavenge, or stealthy people. It sounds like perception is it at this point. Sorry I made that so confusing.

[Thor]

I just mean looking for hidden things - clues or whatnot.
Not useful items to scavenge, or stealthy people. It sounds like perception is it at this point. Sorry I made that so confusing.

No worries! Get used to these questions! Intent is incredibly important in Burning Wheel. It can take some adjustment if you're not used to it.