Test mongering for gods

[DonMac]

In many other systems the XP earning is basically the same for all the players, with minor fluctuations. Since the XP often is granted on a monster slaying / problem solving basis for the group with only a small amount for the best role-player.

While this can put a damper on the role-play in other systems the reverse is possible in BW where there can evolve a huge difference in the number of tests performed (XP earned).

An example. As an opposite to me having problems thinking up tests, one of the other players in the group is a test master (like Jedi master good).

He is not a test monger in the lame sense, but an epic test story weaver with one eye firmly on the character sheet. I have no bad feelings over him doing it, many times I don’t even notice it in the game since the story flows so beautiful around his tests.
BUT! The result is that on a standard game section he makes twice the number of tests of the others players (especially me). This includes harvesting a lot of the artha since much of the story revolve around him, despite the GM best effort.

The result is that in this campaign he is far more skilled than the other players (my skill max is Ax B5) especially in faith and communication skills (he plays a priest). G7 and B7 (plus some call on traits)

I have no problem with him being that powerful other than our characters story is straining to keep up with each other.
I hit someone with my B5 ax skill and maybe he is injured, he just resurrected 30 people with a major miracle.
The second problem (witch is the big one) is the difference in oratory skills result in we NEVER EVER have a battle of wills any more. That is a shame since we are having a great time arguing, manipulating each other (off system). But no mater how we try to set up the stakes, the test is a sure loss to my side. Debating to get the minor consensus is just weird.

Basically it looks to me that this system rewards the outgoing creative player leaving the quiet gamer (witch can be as good a gamer) in the dust resulting in a major story gap develops.

Damn! That was a lot of explanation. Sorry.

So my question is this. If the GM want the players character to remain relatively in the vicinity off each other power wise. What is he to do?

1. Accept that some players just must be granted some test mongering freedom to keep up.
2. Put the brakes on the test god, which doses nothing wrong.
3. Retire some of the characters and write some new ones that are closer to each other.

[vikingmonkey]

This is just one of among many responses you'll get, but it sounds like you need to "Say Yes" a LOT more. I don't have my books on hand, so I can't give you page number where that's discussed, but it's early on in the books. Basically, if it sounds cool and you want to go along with it, just say "Yes" and move on, no need to roll dice or earn a test.

[stormsweeper]

As Mike says, the GM needs to be limiting when tests are doled out in general. Not everything needs to be a test all of the time.

My advice to you is to really sharpen your beliefs so they become a major force in play. Burning Wheel does require you to engage the system, and the place to really start with that is your beliefs. What are your beliefs currently?

[luke]

However, I think you're overlooking one of the nuances of BW play. A test god is a boon to the whole group. Whenever he thinks up a daring plan, make certain to insert yourself in it. Help him. You get tests for advancement for helping. If you can't help, make a linked test. If you don't have the skill for a linked test, start opening one on the spot. There's a lot of room for everyone to benefit from the test god.

Also, he's got a B7 Oratory. Okay, that's nice to have on the team. He's in no way undefeatable in the Duel of Wits. You can absolutely outplay him in those scenarios. However, far more important to this topic, by avoiding engagements with him, you're denying yourself important tests for advancement. If he's on your team then any DoW stakes that he uses on you are likely to be lighter than what the GM would use. Throw yourself in front of the bus a few times. Have the other players help. You'll all get tests by opposing him. And if he uses his fancy call-ons in your DoW, so much the better. Now he won't have them to use against the GM in a more important DoW. He'll need your help, in fact.

Don't see him as a problem, look at him as a wealth of opportunities.

-L

[xenomouse]

I'm pretty sure he can't use Oratory for all Duels of Wits. There will be times when he'll need to use persuasion (e.g. - a 1 on 1 conversation).

[stormsweeper]

To have a grey-shade Faith, he must have taken the "Chosen One" trait. As a GM, I would be going after that one hard. As a fellow player, I would be playing the other way. Get him into trouble at every opportunity. Start forcing people to be his followers, announce his divinity to everyone (including potential enemies), etc.

[Z-Dog]

That sounds like a great problem and some excellent solutions.

As far as the plot of the game/story is concerned, I'd love to hear how going against this powerful player by the other players, repeatedly, in Dual of Wits, spins the game. I can image everyone building up some real grudges/issues that are just going to explode later in the game when they get "tested up" to his level.

Something else that popped in my head while reading the posts, and touched on briefly up there: what's going on with this guy's Beliefs? Is he totally hammering and shaping everything to his will? I can imagine the issues are getting bigger and bigger, and more deadly for him.

[Dwight]

To have a grey-shade Faith, he must have taken the "Chosen One" trait. As a GM, I would be going after that one hard. As a fellow player, I would be playing the other way. Get him into trouble at every opportunity. Start forcing people to be his followers, announce his divinity to everyone (including potential enemies), etc.
I just finished watching Season 2 Carnivale (finished the last episode just minutes ago). I think that's a pretty good example of what stormsweeper is talking about here. It was very interesting how this sort of thing works. When someone (Ben) becomes so plainly the 'top dog' for one side it can work to shove other characters on that side into the lime light. Their very nature of being "under the radar" puts them in a position to do the things that matter.

Not always "big" things but things that matter. Things that make them important parts of the story because these things are important to those characters doing them, much/all is being risked by the character, and they are doing things that the top dog cannot reasonably be in a position to do.


P.S. In the face of a team of helping dice a B7 advantage can quickly wither.

[DonMac]

The problem is definitely not in the game. Every one is having a good time.

Actually the GM is beginning to throwing major problems in his face on the Belief tests/skill.
• Default negative consequences on easy test (the goods displeasure of him misusing his gift to doo minor things)
• Problems with the established church. Enter inquisition.
• Crazy followers. A group of people that is not right in the head is hard to control.

It is fun to se him squirm under all the ‘heal me o prophet’ chanting.
Religion is a dangerous thing.


On the Duel of wills.

If he starts with a Dismiss he is having 2 for the dismiss + 6 (Oratory B6. Yes he has gone up) + 2 (Suation B5) = B10
And if that is not enough then he uses a fate.
And if that isn’t enough the he uses his call on and get a reroll.
Either way the duel is over.

If he wants he can persuade us that all he’s actions is justified.

The battle of will problem is not in the ‘should we do A or B first’. Those we can still do and just set the stakes so loop sided that I only need a minor/major compromise to get a good deal. It is still a weird and uninteresting battle.

The problem is when we violently disagree (belief driven).
Example:
We have caught an enemy that is an old friend of the priest. She has tried to kill us but he has a belief to save her. And I have a belief to punish the wrong dour (properly having her hanged). So he let her go when I was another place.
Of course we vas going to have words.
The stakes was that he should work on making her pay fore her actions. Or I should accept that sending her to a monastery was punishment enough.
2 wolly’s later the damage tally was 11/2 my boa is 10.
The dismiss sounded a little like ‘shut up I was acting by order by my god’.

I was very tempted to put a sword through him after that. But because he is grinding a lot of tests his axe skill is the same as mine even though he is a priest. So it wasn’t even sure to win that fight.

But the major reason to not fight him was that the story would end (unless the GM stretched some very firm deadlines). You can’t introduce a MW when we are in a pursuit situation.

To reiterate. My main problem is that the story is drifting apart. He is having with the inquisition and I am having problems with fighting 2 persons.

[pseudoidiot]

On the Duel of wills.

If he starts with a Dismiss he is having 2 for the dismiss + 6 (Oratory B6. Yes he has gone up) + 2 (Suation B5) = B10
And if that is not enough then he uses a fate.
And if that isn’t enough the he uses his call on and get a reroll.
Either way the duel is over.



The problem is when we violently disagree (belief driven).
Example:
We have caught an enemy that is an old friend of the priest. She has tried to kill us but he has a belief to save her. And I have a belief to punish the wrong dour (properly having her hanged). So he let her go when I was another place.
Of course we vas going to have words.
The stakes was that he should work on making her pay fore her actions. Or I should accept that sending her to a monastery was punishment enough.
2 wolly’s later the damage tally was 11/2 my boa is 10.
The dismiss sounded a little like ‘shut up I was acting by order by my god’.
To touch back on what Xenomouse said a few posts back, this example doesn't sound like a proper use of Oratory to me. Especially if it was one on one. Oratory is all about speaking to a large group of people, right?

You mentioned he FoRKs Suasion a lot. The GM needs to be careful about allowing that too much. If the player isn't coloring his actions in a DoW with that, then that FoRK doesn't need to be allowed.

Also, if he opens up with Dismiss so often, try opening with a rebuttal since it's the only thing that will counter it and put everything you can into defending. With a little luck he won't reduce your BoA to 0 and he'll hesitate the next volley and be wide open to whatever you want to do.

[stormsweeper]

Or just open with a Dismiss of your own, and dump some artha into it. Set your stakes high and aim for a compromise.

Also, her should only get 1D for that FoRK, you don't get 2D until the exponent reaches 7. Helping gets 2D at an exponent of 5, but not FoRKs.

Again I will ask: what are your Beliefs currently? Your instincts?

[Suicide King]

Just to chime in, I'm DonMac's gm in the game.

Part of the reason this guy is dangerous is that he has earned the Imperious Demeanor trait - allowing him to go first when dealing with a non-versus action once pr DoW. So if they both open up with a dismiss, he goes first and the DoW is over.

However, you guys are right. With a few helpers, the right issue (DonMac has a a few custom traits that makes him scary in discussions over matters of honor) and he could win. In addition, the guy in question has a will of 4, making him vulnerable to incite, so he is definitely beatable.

Part of the reason DonMac feels this guy is unbeatable is that he is really good at scripting, playing the game. He has a knack for forseeing other people's moves (I'm an open book to him), that makes it... intimidating to engage him I suppose. Maybe getting more familiar with the DoW and Fight! mechanics would make the game for fun for you DonMac? We could run a bunch of sample DoW's and Fights to get some more system famliarity, heck, I could use that too.

[stormsweeper]

Part of the reason this guy is dangerous is that he has earned the Imperious Demeanor trait - allowing him to go first when dealing with a non-versus action once pr DoW. So if they both open up with a dismiss, he goes first and the DoW is over.

I think you mean the Domineering Presence trait. In which case, DonMac should be gunning for Tenacious. ;)

PM me if you want some tips on how to be an evil GM. The short form is you need to put the guy in situations he doesn't want to win.

[GreedyAlgorithm]

In that case set the stakes aiming for a compromise and script Rebuttal, Rebuttal, Rebuttal. Keep doing that until he scripts a Feint, then start mixing it up with Points and Dismisses. If he can read you like a book, then don't try to anticipate anything, just pick randomly.

And try some Not A Big Deal arguments so that his BoA is only 4. :)

[luke]

Dismissers can be beaten. Or at the very least compromised with.

But it sounds to me like that you're fighting with the direction that you think the story should be headed versus where the story is actually headed.

Burning Wheel is a game about fighting for what you believe. If you believe that this zealot is in your way, then it's time to step up. Confront him. Use everything you've got. Make that the story.

[Z-Dog]

DonMac:

Fight for what you believe. Rewrite your own beliefs to reflect your issues. Get tons of artha for opposing this guy. Then use it all to beat him in a dual of wits...or use it to beat him to death.

When it's all done and the dust has settled, look around at what the story has become. You guys drive the story. It's about you. You want to end it now? Do it.