Aged Monk vs Young Tough

[Freintime]

I'm struggling with how to use or bend the standard BW rules to deal with a RPG "case" type one might call Aged Monk vs Young Tough.

The "case" goes like this, narratively. You have an aged and infirm monk training a spry and fit young dude. The monk is an accomplished martial artist. The young dude is not ... he isn't a rank novice (i.e., unskilled) but he is certainly not as skilled as his teacher.

Again, narratively, you'd expect that up to a certain point the Aged Monk would whip the Young Tough. Despite being less phyiscally able, the Aged Monk's skill and expertise would take the day. Then, when the Young Tough does have some skill -- not as much as his Master, perhaps, but just more skill -- his natural abilities give him the overall advantage.

I'm not uber-comfortable with all the nuances of the BW rules set but what seems to be a limiting factor in the standard application of the rules is the fact that core abilities (Agility, Power) only provide the potential for skill use as opposed to directly modifying skill use. Luke has pointed out to me already that if the Young Tough isn't skilled and thus has to rely only on his Power or Agility but with the double obstacle, it works well. He's also pointed out that Traits can come into play here ...

My thinking -- and I'm wondering on other opinions -- is to modify the relationship between the core abilities and the skills and also then possibly modify Obstacles in the following way.

A core ability (Agility) provides the base die amount (B4). A skill, opening off of the ability, ADDS dice instead of replaces dice. So, instead of opening a skill at half of the ability, you open the skill at 1 (or even zero) and move upward with the total die pool being the core + the skill. So with B4 Agility and B4 Swords, one rolls B8 pool for swordplay.

I realize this would radically change the Obstacles as given OR, simply mean that folks don't have as high skills and probably have to have a harder time to advance up the skill ladders. It does end up emphasizing the core abilities much more, obviously.

So, Aged Monk with Agility B2 and Power B2 but with Martial Arts B5 would roll 7 dice (plus traits and situationals) and Young Tough with Agility B4 and Power B4 and Martial Arts B2 would roll 6 dice (plus traits and situationals). The real difference ends up being 1 die between the two combatants instead of 3 dice. It strikes me that under these circumstances, the "true" or at least most narratively/game interesting difference is about 1 die as opposed to 3.

Thoughts? Perhaps this is just my own esoteric issue.

[Dwight]

Welcome Freintime. :)

...modify the relationship between the core abilities and the skills...
I'm pretty sure this line means your thread belongs more in the Spark forum. However I'll try respond in-line with this forum's purpose:

The Stats already do come into play quite heavily in Fight! Although Agility, outside of Beginner's Luck, usually only indirectly through Reflexes this is still a critical factor. An extra point in Reflexes is really important going into Fight!, it's a tough row to hoe being behind your opponent in Reflexes. Likewise Forte is factored indirectly with [starting] Health and for the MW. Speed and Power also have these indirect influences but they have critical direct uses of the exponent determining the number of dice rolled spread throughout the Fight! actions.

[zabieru]

The real issue is that an aged monk with Agility and Power B2 isn't in any shape to win fights. He doesn't need a wheelchair, and he can make it up a flight of stairs without a rest, but if he needs to get to the third floor, good luck.

Narratively, you'd expect the kind of character you're talking about to actually have B3 stats across the board, with Agility 4 and Perception 5. That means he has Reflexes 4. He probably also has a trait that makes him seem much more fragile outside of combat than in. He's got Boxing B5.

The sort of character you're talking about may hobble around most of the time, but when the fight starts he's not so helpless anymore. If you model him the way he acts outside of combat, you won't get the right results.

Your "Yough Tough" probably has his physical stats at 4, and his mental at Will B3 and Per B4. That means he has Reflexes 3 and he opens Boxing at 2. Assume he's advanced it once.

Now, the Tough has an edge at positioning and he's stronger and tougher, but he's rolling three dice compared to the monk's five for Strikes and Blocks, and the monk gets an extra unopposed action every exchange. My money's on the monk.

You should really look at the lifepaths. If a human has taken three lifepaths with physical stat points (most trained fighters will), he can never end up with less than 12 physical stat points. That's enough to get threes across the board. And that's assuming he's over 80 at the time, which he probably isn't.

Also, you need to play through some more Fights. Weapon skill is not the be-all and end-all. There are lots of useful maneuvers that don't even test it.

[Kublai]

It's not been an issue in my games.

But anyway, how would Advancement work?

[RedBoxer]

Old wizened monks should also look into the Vitality of Youth trait and Precision Training, no?

[chessmaster42]

Old wizened monks should also look into the Vitality of Youth trait and Precision Training, no?

This is genius!

Yes, the Precision Training skill on p. 256 of the Character Burner allows the player to use his skill level instead of Power when factoring IMS. This doesn't change the initial dice pool but keep in mind that the BW system is a scale from 1 to 10. That said, do not underestimate the significance of a 5 exponent.

I also think you meant the Vigor of Youth trait. It's on p. 161 of the Character Burner. It allows human characters that are older than 40 to attain a base stat pool of 7, 14.

Between the two of those, that should balance out your Aged Monk more evenly.

[yeloson]

Let's also not forget that the Old Monk is probably forking in at least one -wise skill from somewhere... "Impetuous young punk-wise" might be just right. If he's pumped it up high enough, it's worth 2 extra dice.

Chris

[Hirram]

Also, doesn't the Artful Dodger trait grant a character the ability to switch one action per exchange without penalty? It sure seems like a trait that an old kung fu master would have.

[Episkopos]

Have you tried burning these characters? I'm thinking "old monk" would have 6 or 7 LPs and the "young tough" would have 3 or 4.

You could also burn the monk as a "monster" using the Monster Burner while burning the young tough normally. All characters in BW are just monsters, from a certain point of view. :)

If you haen't burned them, give it a try. See if that doesn't answer your question. If it still doesn't, post your characters here.

Cheers,
Billy