Dwarven Greed

[luke]

Pete and I have been hashing out the specifics of turning Gold Greed into a full-blown emotional attribute for Dwarves.

Here's what we have so far:
Each 100 rps earned from LPs in character burning adds +1 to the Greed exponent.

(not much else on the conditions of gettin or addin to it).

In play:
Spending a persona point on Greed allows the player to add as many dice as he'd like from the Greed attribute into any one test to acquire something. The number of dice added to test counts as a test for advancement toward Greed.

If the Resources exponent is higher than Greed, Greed may FoRK into Resources.

If Greed is higher than Resources, then the difference counts as an obstacle penalty for all Resources tests.

Advancement:
Routine tests always count, no matter the exponent. Otherwise, it advances like a normal ability.

Help me brainstorm conditions like Grief and questions like Steel.

-L

[Kublai]

Spending a persona point on Greed allows the player to add as many dice as he'd like from the Greed attribute into any one test to acquire something. The number of dice added to test counts as a test for advancement toward Greed.

Does this mean you are earning two tests off of one roll? One for Greed and one for the skill being used?

[Thor]

My first instinct is that 100 RPs per point of Greed is too lenient. In our Dwarves game, which we just created characters for, the highest RP total belonged to our Dwarven Prince. He came out with something like 267 RPs (if I remember correctly).

After he spent them, he came away with a Resources exponent of B8.

So he'd come away from character creation with Resources B8, Greed B2.

On the other hand, my 6 Lifepath Delver wound up with 87 RPs. He'd be Resources B1 and Greed B0.

That's not necessarily bad, but if that is how we decide to calculate Greed, I think Greed tests should be pretty common and difficult.

Anyway, do you think we're getting a little ahead of ourselves? What exactly do you want Dwarven Greed to accomplish in play. How do you want it to drive Dwarf characters? What is the fate that awaits a Dwarf that caps out his Greed?

[Kublai]

I need the books to start my questioning for real, but here goes:

- +1 Greed for each specific lifepath such as Banker?, Quartermaster, Seneschal.

- +1 Greed for each Will Stat point below 4 (Weak-willed Dwarfs are more susceptible?)

- Has the Dwarf ever coveted something owned by another? +1 Greed

- Has the Dwarf ever stolen something he coveted? +1 Greed

- Is the Dwarf over 250 yrs old? +1 Greed

- is the Dwarf over 500 yrs old? +1 Greed

[Kublai]

- Has the Dwarf ever got into a fight for something he coveted? +1 Greed

[luke]

Oops, Thor's right.

I want Greed to be able to be used by Dwarf players to get what they want -- in material goods and power. But the more they give in to this emotion, the less they are willing to give away and risk.

I want players to be able to spend artha to bring Greed into play, but I also want conditions of action/situation that just plain up Greed.

A Dwarf and an Elf unlock an ancient mannish tomb. The tomb contains a great weapon of unknown power. The elf merely frowns at it, but the Dwarf lunges for it. The Elf tries to stop him. The Dwarf player calls on his Greed to aid him in grabbing the weapon before he can be stopped.

Or a Dwarf king meets the a challenger to his throne in battle. He taps his Greed to help him slay his challenger and maintain his power.



I guess it should also influence RP somewhat, but I don't want it to be a choo-choo railroad. I want to leave it up to the player whether or not he taps his Greed.

-L

[Thor]

Okay, that makes sense. For me, Tolkien-esque dwarves represent this tense duality between Greed and Honor (norse dwarves are a different kettle of fish, they are tricksy, greedy, evil, and not to be trusted).

So I want a mechanic that really plays into that. In my opinion, while part of the dwarf greed was about wealth, its real root was a lust for things of beauty and great craft. I think when a dwarf sees gold or mithril or jewels or silver, what he yearns for in his heart are the objects of beauty that can be made from those raw materials. Goblets and toys and harps and weapons of intricate craftsmanship and incredible beauty.

Can we craft a Greed attribute that plays into that?

[Kublai]

I think we are, Thor. At least that's the intent.

No more theory. Come up with questions that reflect your desires. list situations that will earn a Dwarf advancement tests. So sayeth me.

[Thor]

Okay:

First off, I'd like to see Greed used in more situations. If a dwarf encounters a work of great craft or beauty (mithril doors, caves of surpassing beauty, elven queens...), I think a Greed test should be made. Failures cause the dwarf to Hesitate (stare in wonder, tears streaming from the eyes).

I'd also like to see Greed applied in some fashion to actually crafting or forging things (Spend persona points, add Greed to crafting tasks at the risk of hoarding the item away and not allowing it to be used?)

- Have you ever been in the presence of the master craftsmanship of the dwarven fathers? +1 Greed

- Have you ever seen an outsider (elf, man, orc) in possession of a work of dwarven craft? +1 Greed

- Have you traveled to the Halls of the ancient dwarven kings? +1 Greed

-

[Kublai]

*Wealth can mean goods, beauty, power, status, or whatnot.

Obstacle 1: Picking up a penny. Choosing the biggest turkey leg on the platter. Filling your mug to the tippy-top and slurping whatver spills over.

Obstacle 2: Exaggerating an item's quality, whether buying, selling or trading. Coveting another's wealth.

Obstacle 3: Straight out lying about an item's quality, whether buying, selling or trading. Failing to take a large risk in order to increase wealth.

Obstacle 4: Stealing what you covet. Buying the very best no matter if it might ruin you.

Obstacle 5: Manipulating the downfall of a rival in order to take his possessions and power. Failing to take a medium risk in order to increase wealth.

Obstacle 6: Killing someone to keep one's wealth.

Obstacle 7: Failing to take a tiny risk in order to increase wealth.

Obstacle 8: Killing someone to gain their wealth.

Obstacle 9: Never taking a risk in order to increase wealth.

Obstacle 10: Killing someone for a small gain.

[Viper]

Just another take here, and don't get me wrong, I like what you have so far, but shouldn't greed be kind of detrimental? Something a dwarf must struggle with and try to overcome to be part of an adventuring group? Maybe it only comes into play when you're doing things like divvying up the spoils of an adventure, or trying to get some gold from a dragon's lair when it would be far smarter to run away. It seems to me that greed is something that should be tested when the character tries to resist a material urge.

I think a greed score that is analogous to a grief score is a good idea- and it should be determined by questions, as put forth above. However, I think it would be better used in the way that hesistation is used for steel tests- except that instead of rolling your steel you make a will test. Your successes subtract from the amount of time you spend going after the object of desire.

Here's an example:

Grung Longbeard has a will of B5, and a greed score of 7. He is tiptoeing through Trogdor the dragon's lair while the dragon sleeps. He spies a shining mithril helmet on a pedestal. He really should be getting out of here, but it's mithril... he rolls his will - gets 4 successes. 7-4=3, so he must spend 3 actions trying to get the helmet, in this case, moving towards it and trying to grab it quietly. He will not sneak out, he will not flee even if the dragon wakes up. He may reconsider after 3 actions worth of movement, or whatever, but his greed will not let him leave the helmet alone until then.

[luke]

Huh. that's a cool application.

How about a Steel test with obstacle = to Hesitation plus Greed exponent?

That's a hard test and ensures some action on the part of the character.


What I really really really want this rule to be able to recreate is the Dwarves of Menengroth slaughtering their Elven hosts in their homes and stealing the Silmaril. It's got to be that powerful.

-L

[Viper]

That sounds good- now that we're talking about it, maybe orcs should be able to use hatred in the same way.

[luke]

That sounds good- now that we're talking about it, maybe orcs should be able to use hatred in the same way.

Don't worry, Hatred's taken care of.

The important thing here, though, is never to completely strip a player of control of his character. Using emotional attributes we merely make certain decisions more important for the character.

For Elves: If I go to war to defend my homeland, it will most likely break me. What do I do?

For Orcs: My rage and hatred are powerful forces -- and are necessary for me to survive my own culture. If I give in to them I will go mad. What do I do?

For Dwarves: ?? What's the condition/question?

-L

[Kublai]

I think a Dwarf who gives in to Greed entirely becomes unable to act - he is too greedy to risk losing what he has gained, yet he is compelled to do so. He freezes in indecision and becomes a shut-in, mumbling to himself over and over and ceaselessly keeping inventory while imagining even the greater wealth which he will never have.

[Viper]

for dwarves: My ambitions are powerful, they allow me to overcome insurmountable odds to achieve what I want- but is it ever enough? There's always something more, just beyond my grasp, and if I am not careful, I will lose everything I hold dear in pursuit of it.

[Ubby]

I think a Dwarf who gives in to Greed entirely becomes unable to act - he is too greedy to risk losing what he has gained, yet he is compelled to do so. He freezes in indecision and becomes a shut-in, mumbling to himself over and over and ceaselessly keeping inventory while imagining even the greater wealth which he will never have.

I picture it more the opposite in that it causes uncharacteristic and extreme emotional outbursts. I'm thinking about Thorin and Smaug's hoard and the Arkenstone. He was irrationally ready to war against Men and Elves because they wanted a share, and I think he would have killed Bilbo for taking the Arkenstone. It seems more of an irrational passion that can override even deeply held beliefs and instincts. Kind of the dark side of normal dwarven conservatism.

[Thor]

I think Kublai's idea is cool, but I like Ubby's take as well. Maybe capping out Greed leads you to a completely suicidal quest, like retaking the lost homeland of Moria...

[Verrain]

[quote=Viper]
For Elves: If I go to war to defend my homeland, it will most likely break me. What do I do?

For Orcs: My rage and hatred are powerful forces -- and are necessary for me to survive my own culture. If I give in to them I will go mad. What do I do?

For Dwarves: ?? What's the condition/question?

-L

For Dwarves: Gold is power, beauty and life. I want it. I need it. But to give totally into greed is to lose not only my reputation and my honor but that of my family and my clan. What do I do?

The more I think about this, I wonder if Dwarves should an Honor/Greed stat each on a sliding scale from each other i.e. high honor means low greed and vice versa. Both give you advantages and disadvantages in different situations and both are a way to power if not taken to the extremes. Just a thought.

[Kublai]

I never felt honor was such a driving factor for Dwarfs. not enough to give it a stat at least.

[Thor]

I never felt honor was such a driving factor for Dwarfs. not enough to give it a stat at least.

Well, I wouldn't necessarily suggest that it be a stat, but the Tradtional and Oath-Swearer traits definitely say a lot about dwarven honor, I think, as do the consequences of Oath-Breaking. Not every dwarf starts with the Oath-Swearer trait, but according to the text, all it takes is for a Longbeard to pronounce an oath (which they do often) and everyone there is considered eternally bound to that Oath, becoming Outcasts and pariahs forever more if they break it.

It may not be chivalric honor, but to me that means that Dwarves hold honor and Law in extremely high esteem. This is just IMHO, but I think any dwarf that steals from another dwarf or dwarf friend, or kills a dwarf or dwarf friend for gain would be forever cast out from dwarven society.

[luke]

I think Kublai's idea is cool, but I like Ubby's take as well. Maybe capping out Greed leads you to a completely suicidal quest, like retaking the lost homeland of Moria...

Nah, the Thorin's dilemna is presen in the rules -- that's how you behave before you go off the deep end.

Once you hit 10, you lock the doors to your hold and let no one in or out (they could be a theif!)

As far as Honor/Greed goes. You're getting too restrictive. By presenting a Greed mechanic to play off of, we're allowing players to take the honorable path by not invoking their Greed.

And being cast out and all that is meta-game stuff that BW doesn't touch. It's up to the players and the GMs to determine the mores of their individual societies.

-L

[Thor]

As far as Honor/Greed goes. You're getting too restrictive. By presenting a Greed mechanic to play off of, we're allowing players to take the honorable path by not invoking their Greed.

And being cast out and all that is meta-game stuff that BW doesn't touch. It's up to the players and the GMs to determine the mores of their individual societies.


I understand all that. But as Ron said and you quoted in the Contacts thread, there is a lot of implied setting in Burning Wheel, and that's what I was trying to get at by bringing that up. You are going to imply this stuff one way or the other through the Obstacles set on the Greed tests.

A couple of posts ago, Kublai had stealing something the dwarf coveted as leading to an Ob 4 Greed test. IMHO, that's too low, if we take the above into account. Stealing an item of dwarven craft from a man might lead to a lesser test. But stealing from another dwarf or a friend of the dwarves would lead to a much more significant test, I think.

[Verrain]

Going with the idea that B10 makes you a reclusive miser let's try this for a mechanic.

All dwarves have to build a grand hall once they get the money yes? That's in the gold greed rules somewhere.

So anytime a Dwarf wants to leave his hall or whereever the bulk of his wealth is stored, he must make a Will (maybe Steel) test using his Greed as an Ob. Going out for a reason that would enhance his wealth gives you bonus dice for the roll.

While away from his hoard a Dwarf is distracted and worried from not being there to guard it, this could lead to penalty dice over time, but if he is out doing Greedy things these little worries are offset by bonus Greed dice. Let the Greed addiction spiral begin.

I also think that having a high Greed should penalize you somehow in Haggling situations. Negative Fork dice as it were. If you are too eager to have something you'll never get a good price.

Just off the top of my head.

[luke]

I understand all that. But as Ron said and you quoted in the Contacts thread, there is a lot of implied setting in Burning Wheel, and that's what I was trying to get at by bringing that up. You are going to imply this stuff one way or the other through the Obstacles set on the Greed tests.


Yes, but we imply setting by imposing culture, ethics and behavior on characters. We do that be presenting mechanical conditions to either undertake or ignore, pass or fail.

So what I'm saying is, don't worry about the mechanics of the larger issues of perceived Dwarven culture. Focus the mechanics on what Greed does to the individual Dwarf. By doing that, we retroactively creature culture.

Trust me, one of the things I hope to get out of this process is to make Dwarves as evocative as Elves. I want them to feel right, too.

Does that make sense?

Final obstacles for Greed aren't in place. So keep making suggestions.

I like Rich's question:
for dwarves: My ambitions are powerful, they allow me to overcome insurmountable odds to achieve what I want- but is it ever enough? There's always something more, just beyond my grasp, and if I am not careful, I will lose everything I hold dear in pursuit of it.

Honorable behavior vs dishonorable behavior should come about as a result of playing with or against this mechanic.

So now let's get practical. How do you see Greed in play? Do you like the Steel-like hesitation that Rich came up with or is that too restrictive.

Another note: I don't really want to have a "you're forced do this because your Greedy test". I'd rather allow the player access to a reservoir of power. The more they tap it, the more they put themselves in danger. But I guess there has to be some kind of mechanical ramification or drive...

Hrm. Sorcerer doesn't use that methodology and it seems to work ok.

Anyway,
Do all Dwarves start with Greed or is it triggered in game?

-L

[Kublai]

Not all Elves have Grief. Not all Orcs have Hatred. Not all Dwarfs have Greed.

These Emotional Stats go above and beyond the ordinary. You have to earn them somehow, either during chargen or through play.

[Thor]

So now let's get practical. How do you see Greed in play? Do you like the Steel-like hesitation that Rich came up with or is that too restrictive.


I like it. In fact I suggested much the same thing. :lol:

I think that's a perfect application. As for the rest, I think the thing that makes Grief so compelling is because you're dancing on the razor's edge. As a player, you want it to advance because it grants you power. But you also become keenly aware of the danger of advancing it too much.

So how about some sort of Greed test that allows you to add bonuses (possibly through the expenditure of Artha) to various kinds of rolls when treasures are concerned, not just when "acquiring" things? So Thorin's Greed gives him bonuses to his Sword ability at the Battle of Lonely Mountain. Your artificer can use it to fuel his genius when creating a new piece. And your trader can use it to boost his Haggling or Resources roll to get something that has caught his fancy.

Let the player choose how to represent his Greed, just as you let them choose how they represent their Grief. Don't dictate the negative effects at all (although I do like the hesitation--it's evocative). The players know what it takes to increase Greed, and if they WANT their Greed to increase, they perform more and more dastardly and greedy acts until they hit Greed 10, at which point they become shut-ins.

[Kublai]

So now let's get practical. How do you see Greed in play? Do you like the Steel-like hesitation that Rich came up with or is that too restrictive.

Though it has merit, I don't prefer them and feel this whole thing is on the edge of tedium. It shouldn't be the main focus of a dwarf, just as Grief isn't the focus of an Elf. It shouldn't intrude on gameplay unless the player wants it to.

[Kublai]

More conditions:

Obstacle 6: Beholding a beauty in nature you can never attain: a perfect sunset, a perfect spark of a forge, a glitter on water, an Elf's sweet voice.

Obstacle 5: Claiming someone else's work or idea as your own.

[Thor]

More conditions:

Obstacle 6: Beholding a beauty in nature you can never attain: a perfect sunset, a perfect spark of a forge, a glitter on water, an Elf's sweet voice.

Obstacle 5: Claiming someone else's work or idea as your own.

I really like both of those.

[luke]

Ok, it looks like we've settled on some mechanics. (there's been some behind the scenes discussion.)

Greed is used like this:
Resources:
Greed can both help and hinder Resources. If Greed is lower than Resources the player may FoRK his Greed into Resources tests. The burning desire gives him the edge and urge to acquire more.

If Greed is higher than Resources, then the Dwarf is hard put to part with what he has. The difference between the Greed and Resources exponents increases the obstacles for all Resources tests.

Artha:
A single Persona point can be spent to tap the burning fires of Greed. (this might be too cheap. might have to make this 2 P).

This can be spent on any test where the character is creating a thing of beauty/wealth/power, acquiring a thing of beauty, or even attempting to get their hands on said thing of beauty/wealth or power.

Doing so allows the player to add any amount of dice from his Greed exponent to an ability test. The dice act like Persona points spent on a test.

Steel:
She's magnificent...
Characters with Greed are vulnerable to a form of wonderment. Whenever they see something awe inspiring -- an ancient artifact, a hoard of gold, a beautifully crafted hall -- the GM can call for a Steel test.

Greed adds to the character's Hesitation for the purposes of the test. If the character hesitates the player may have him stand and drool or ...

I Must Have It, Now's My Chance!
A Dwarven player can opt to have his character overcome by Greed. When hesitating from a Greed-induced Steel test, rather than Standing and Drooling he may choose to have his character "go for it!" He hesitates for one action -- a blink of an eye -- before deciding his course of action. TAt the very least, for the duration of the hesitation, he must attempt to barter for, steal or kill for the item in question. hereafter, the object of the failed test is the focus of his attention -- always lingering somewhere in the back of his mind.

Advancement:
Routine tests always count for advancement for Greed.

Artha
Dice spent from Greed count as a test against the emotional attribute. If you have a B3 Greed and spend three Greed dice on the test, you log a difficult test for advancement (for Greed).

Steel tests for Greed always count as Routine tests.

Opting for I Must Have It! counts as a Routine test. (Thus a failed Steel/Greed test in which the player chooses I Must Have It! counts as two Routine tests for advancement.

Conditions
Conditions met in play count as tests for advancement as well. Just like Grief. (more on those later).

-L

[Thor]

Cool. I like all of this and I'll be interested to see how it works out in play.

Looking at the Resources aspect alone: Wow! No wonder Thorin was so determined to win back his ancestral Hall. I imagine his Greed rating was fairly high, while his Resources rating was fairly low (despite having a gold chain). It would be almost impossible for a Dwarf in that situation to earn the tests he would need to advance his Resources rating.

I think 1 Persona point may not be a bad price for using Greed dice to add to rolls. First, Persona points, while not as rare as Deeds points, are not exactly common. Second, there is a condition attached to when you can use it (mainly you must be driving toward the object of the Greed), and third, any points spent on Greed are points that are not spent toward an eventual epiphany for that skill.

Again though, I'd have to see it used in play before I could actually back up what I just said.

[Judd]

What about when their rating get's to ten?

Elves go west, Orcs go mad.

There are legends of Dwarves who covet gold so much that they actually become dragons.

Perhaps they turn into some dark reflection of what they are coveting.

[Viper]

I like the idea of them locking themselves in their holds when they hit 10 - it also practically sets up a very cool undead monster - picture it: a dwarf overcome with greed, wasting away for lack of food on top of a pile of all his gold. He dies one day, and doesn't even realize it... the only imposrtant thing is to protect the gold... protect the gold...

[Durgil]

Why stop with Dwarven Greed? This could be the start of the Burning Catholic Fantasy Roleplaying System :shock: , and we could give human characters all Seven of the Deadly Sins as Attributes.

Pride could be offset by Humility, Envy by Love, Wrath by Kindness, Sloth by Zeal, Averace (or Greed) by Generasity, Gluttony by Faith and Temperance, and Lust by Self-control.

I'm sorry, with all of this talk of Greed, I just kept thinking about that Brad Pitt movie, Seven. Plus, there were all those years of Parochial school. :wink:

[Kublai]

If the Resources exponent is higher than Greed, Greed may FoRK into Resources.

If Greed is higher than Resources, then the difference counts as an obstacle penalty for all Resources tests.

After some consideration, I think we have the process reversed! Greedy Dwarfs who have little Resources want even more at any cost. Fat and bloated dwarfs are much less likely to give up what they have and take risks.