MG: BW Lite for Humans?

[Wrathbone]

I was wondering if Mouse Guard could be used as a sort of BW lite using the mechanics with human characters. Or is this for roleplaying mice only?

Don't be offended, I'm sure it's a great game as is, I just haven't read the comics and had never considered roleplaying a mouse. Also, my playing time is pretty limited and I devote all of it to medieval fantasy settings when I do get time.

I'm considering picking up the preorder anyway as anything that is even remotely related to BW is very cool in my book.

* Side question: is there magic?

[stormsweeper]

This should probably be in the hacking forum.

The system provides only the means to generate mouse guard characters, not even non-guard mice! There is no magic whatsoever.

You could do some work to port it, but the game is designed to be used for similar us vs. overwhelming outside forces and is not really a generic system. See some of the hacking ideas in the appropriate forum.

[Wrathbone]

Thanks Stormsweeper, I'll check that forum out. Even so, I think I'll have to get this just from looking at the character sheet. It looks like it's got some cool new ideas.

[Aramis]

It could be used for humans, but you'd need to define human Nature. List three things that define "Human"...

Adapting the CGen isn't a big issue, and it could be used just about as is for Guardsmen. Except for Critters, everything else would work in a human setting of dark ages technology from the mouse-side, but the balance of critter natures might be off. Stuff bigger than people should be fine; inbetween mouse and human probably should drop a die or two...

Get it. It is an excellent engine, at least minable for some elements to be ripped back to BW/BE...

[RedwallRanger]

List three things that define "Human"...
(Shouldn't it be 4 things? Escaping, Climbing, Hiding, & Foraging)

Some ideas:
Adaptable, Tool-Use, Creative, Fast Learner, Stubborn,

I'm sure you could find more words or examples of things that could work, it all depends on the feel of the game you want to run.

[Odie]

Personally, if I were setting up Nature for humans, I'd use cultural traits for its descriptors, and have Nature vary by culture.

And yeah, this should probably be in the Hacks and Expansions forum.

-B

[Aramis]

not all natures are 4 things.

Ferret, Mink, Beetle, Bee, Cricket, Bat, Bird, Chipmunk, Crab...

[Fuseboy]

Personally, if I were setting up Nature for humans, I'd use cultural traits for its descriptors, and have Nature vary by culture.

Oh, that's very fun.

Etiquette, Sailing, Frying
Haggling, Foraging, Compassionate

It's especially interesting if you imagine adventurers returning to their homelands having picked up some Nature 0-type traits.

[caul]

I'm very interested in this, as I have been looking for a system like MG for a while. I'm getting tired of minis and mats and hour long rule discussions. I just want a simple streamlined system that is robust enough to hand great storytelling, and I think MG is it. Now we just need to hack it to humans...and the Nature idea is very important.

I agree that Nature can be based on culture, but I think it would be affect by upbringing as well. Perhaps we can come up with some sort of idea similar to Lifepaths which will determine a character's nature with a series of questions. Ideas?

[Indy Pete]

Identifying the attendant culture from the first set of traits was easy.


Haggling, Foraging, Compassionate
Mmm. That one has me stumped though :confused:

Throw a guy a bone, cheers
Pete

[Irminsul]

I've been musing on this subject and this is my 2 cents:

OPTIONS:
Class/Occupation/Path: such as warrior, mage, rogue, paladin.
Cultural identity: such as Gondor, Rohan, Eriador.
Racial traits: such as elf, dwarf, orc, hobbit.
Personality/Passions: being descriptors for the character.
Combination: by choosing one from each catagory.

Note: any Nature descriptor that is violence-related should be carefully monitored.

My preference would be to use the last option and choose a single "descriptor" from each catagory. (Of course this also means making up a small list for each too -- very time intensive).

Personality would be were the player could really cut loose and nail down their character's inner-self.

So one could end up with a hobbit rogue from the Shire who is a bit of a troublemaker (aka. Pippin) and it would look like this:

Hobbit = cautious
Rogue = hiding
Shire = talkative
Personality = mischievous

(Just an example made on the fly).

One interesting side-effect is that in answering the character questions while doing the Recruitment Phase some of these would be answered as well.

What do you think?

[caul]

I've been musing on this subject and this is my 2 cents:
--snip--


I agree with you completely, and though creating a questionaire might be time consuming, I think it might be worth it. It would also be interesting to note that a questionaire could work well in cementing the ideas about your setting as well.

[Fuseboy]

Identifying the attendant culture from the first set of traits was easy.

Mmm. That one has me stumped though :confused:

Ah, the first one I had a definite culture in mind - it's where my parents are from - but then once I got beyond that I felt like a racist so just made something up. :-)

I agree with you, Irminsul - I think anything that can be used directly in conflicts threatens to make a fairly potent character. (Although, that would be interesting in a predominantly social game, someone whose nature is to be physically violent.)

Combination is a fun option, but I think Nature draws a lot of its coolness from being shared - either by several players or by each player and many other NPCs. Otherwise it screws with the traits you acquire when Nature hits the top or bottom of the scale. It shouldn't devolve into a list of character-specific personality traits.

[Irminsul]

Combination is a fun option, but I think Nature draws a lot of its coolness from being shared - either by several players or by each player and many other NPCs. Otherwise it screws with the traits you acquire when Nature hits the top or bottom of the scale. It shouldn't devolve into a list of character-specific personality traits.

Ah! Now that you mention it you have a very good point. And I have to admit when I was mulling this over there was something niggling at my mind and bothering me about the idea. :)

[caul]

Yes, I see that point as well. I wonder if Nature should be something more determined by setting. I think a shared Nature would work well in a setting with black and white factions, such as a Lord of the Rings type setup with Light versus Darkness.

[Esteban]

I'm not quite sold on Nature representing cultural traits. I mean, is it really in your nature if it varies by culture? Sounds more like cultural baggage, than the more basic and primal focus of Nature found in MG.

Though, what exactly is human nature really goes into some religious and philosophical topics. I would advocate for innovation, socializing and fighting to be mixed in there. Those seem to be so intrinsically human.

I'd go with something like: Escaping, Fighting, Socializing, Crafting/Building/Innovating (can't really decide which of the three fits best) as a first draft.

[luke]

Estaben is on to something. Unless there's non-Human Nature, Human Nature is unimportant. There has to be a reason to be human, to stand apart from them.

If everyone's just human and tapping into a lake of sweet abilities -- Escaping, Fighting, Socializing, Building* -- then there's no use for the ability.

*You won't need any skills in this game!

[johnstone]

*You won't need any skills in this game!

Dude. Netrunning.


On topic: You realize you can put stats back in right?
(Oh, I'm sorry Luke, did your drink come out your nose? My gracious, that is a horrible thing to say to your computer!)

You don't even need four stats - you can get by with just three (maybe even two!), instead of switching to some crazy Nature (Rohan) or whatever.

Although, using the Emotional Attributes from Serpent Sun is a pretty good idea, too. Or check those old BW steampunk threads, with Steam, Iron and Fire...

[Irminsul]

You don't even need four stats - you can get by with just three (maybe even two!), instead of switching to some crazy Nature (Rohan) or whatever.

Although, using the Emotional Attributes from Serpent Sun is a pretty good idea, too. Or check those old BW steampunk threads, with Steam, Iron and Fire...

Nice!! I like it.
I think I was too tied up in trying to maintain the "feel" of the rules (ie. Nature had to be there otherwise it wouldn't be "right").

When what I really wanted all along was to figure out a way to get my lazy players in to BW through MG (because my players suck and don't think "mice with swords" is awesome like I do).

Thanks!

[johnstone]

Yeah, it should work fine adding just Perception, Power and Agility (with Power being strength and toughness, and Agility being speed and dexterity), in order to keep it as simple as possible. You'll have to decide which skills root from which attribute, and which skills to change/drop/add.

If you want to use lifepaths, I suppose you could just let each character start with a 3 in each stat, plus whatever stat bonuses they get from LPs. Derive Health, Circles and Resources like you would in BW.

Be warned, though -- if your players are really lazy, they might try out DoW and Fight! and then want to go back to Mouse Guard conflicts!

[luke]

Hey man, if you like to make more work for your own bad self, go for it. It can also be played for simplicity and kept as is -- with no loss of depth!

[Irminsul]

Hey man, if you like to make more work for your own bad self, go for it. It can also be played for simplicity and kept as is -- with no loss of depth!

We tinker because we love! ;)

Seriously, if you didn't make such a damn fine game it wouldn't be such a pleasure to think about all the time and want to modify for some strange purpose.

So really - it's all your fault. Stop making awesome games. No wait. Keep making awesome games!

/tangent.

EDIT: Hrm. Didn't mean for that to be all fanboi and gushing.

[NkEnNy]

I've been thinking Mouseguard could do Exalted excellently. Much better than WW at any rate. :rolleyes: (Nature would be replaced by Essence(Caste))

For a very generic fantasy thing I would replace Nature with class actually.


GENERIC FANTASY

Nature(Class)
- Fighter (Dueling, Lifting and breaking things, Intimidation)
- Rogue (Hiding, Disguises, Distractions)
- Cleric (Medicine, Soothing Platitudes, Preaching)
- Mage (Research, Teaching, and investigation)

Skill and Traitlist:
Replace every instance of 'mouse' with 'man', as well as other 'color' editing.

Where were you Born
Cities are replaced by Cultures and in some cases specific Races. This is very setting specific.

Mouse Age and Ability
- Tenderpaw -> Aspirant/Apprentice
- Guardmouse -> Young Adventurer/Laborer/Farmer
- Patrol Guard -> Adventurer/Soldier/Appointed Position
- Patrol Leader -> Veteran Adventurer/Noble
- Guard Captain -> Administrator/Major/General

Age is essentially 'background' before becoming the adventurer you are currently representing in play. Keep them fairly broad. :)
- An administrator is essentially an older person of some experience who performs mostly logistical and (suprise) administrative tasks.
- A Noble or veteran adventurer is some form of community leader. Noble being a specific example.


Magic
Probably a hot topic, but why can't magic simply be replaced by appropriate traits? Essentially decide on a few setting specific themes and work from there.

Examples:
Fire Magic, Healing Hands, Geomancy, Divine Breath, etc


KISS
- Ken

[NkEnNy]

To elaborate on post above


Mouse Nature/Class Nature
Class nature is a measurement of your characters heroism and general adventerous spirit.

A person with high Class rating is:
- Supremely confident in his own abilities (harder to learn new lessons)
- Ever seeking new challenges
- More and more elaborate/epic goals

A person with a Low Class rating:
- More likely to want to live a normal life.
- Fearful of the creatures of darkness.
- Will relate better to the feelings and habits of normal men.

The three questions: Your Class starts at 2

Do you have a home and/or non heroic people dependent on you? Or do you forge ahead unafraid of any and all fallout.
If you do have dependables, lower your Class by 1. Who are they? and why are they in danger?


Do you seek glory? and have you ever been horrendously wounded or lost someone dear to you due to your adventurous actions?
If you seek glory and you've paid the price; increase your Class by 1.
Did this result in a perilous moral wound, lower your Health by 1. If instead you lost someone dear to you; lower your Will by 1.


Are you considered especially chivalrous, pious or just plain brave?
Are you certain? If so increase your class by 1. Your Belief should in some way reflect this nature.


Or something like that anyhow.

[Daniel H.]

Probably a hot topic, but why can't magic simply be replaced by appropriate traits? Essentially decide on a few setting specific themes and work from there.
I had this thought as well. Make magical Traits that can be applied situationally. The magic is more color than mechanics. Learning/earning them, however, might require some additional rules.

Also, take your Exalted ideas to a new post. I'd like to see them.

[RedwallRanger]

I've been thinking Mouseguard could do Exalted excellently.

I'd really like to see your ideas for this too.

[NkEnNy]

I'll get my notes sorted and make a post then. :) I must say the plans I've jotted down are hardly the holy grail of gaming however. I just feel that many of the aspects of MouseGuard fit extremely well into how we play Exalted.

[Stormtower]

Estaben is on to something. Unless there's non-Human Nature, Human Nature is unimportant. There has to be a reason to be human, to stand apart from them.

If everyone's just human and tapping into a lake of sweet abilities -- Escaping, Fighting, Socializing, Building* -- then there's no use for the ability.

*You won't need any skills in this game!


I agree with Luke.

You've got to distinguish if you want the game to be "Human Guard" or "Cultural/Racial Guard". If it is "Human Guard", then most of your obstacles would be things that are "non-human" and will hopefully be bigger/stronger than you. I tend to think along the lines of Starship Troopers at this point.

If you're going with "Cultural/Racial Guard" ... then I think you might as well abandon the idea of using MG as "BW-lite" and get into BW.