Wounds, DN, and new ideas

[Kublai]

Let's think of some ways to take into account Superficial and Light Wounds without them effecting the Difficulty Number (DN):

1) Superficials and Lights don't effect the DN at all. Sups still count as +1 and Lights still count as +2 but only in terms of adding up to 3, when you would lose -1 die as regular. So 1 or 2 Supies and you're fine, but 3 supies and you are at -1 die.

2) Superficials subtract 1 die for one Volley. Lights subtract 1 die for one Exchange. After that, they have no effect, other than you would still need to heal them (mostly a role-playing thing).

[Yagathai]

For the most part, I see Superficial and Light wounds as painful but not especially damaging -- scrapes, bruises and so forth. It isn't until Midi that a character's body starts taking enough damage to actually affect biomechanical functioning. I like your first suggestion, Kublai, and here I proffer one of my own:

The penalties to DN caused by Superficial and Light wounds are offset by Will (or perhaps just half of Will), representing a character's ability to ignore/block out minor aches and pains. So a character with Will 5 can ignore 1 Superficial and 2 Lights before things start to get nasty and his (gender inclusive, natch) DN starts to go up.

[Kublai]

Incorporating Will is an interesting idea, but I would like to avoid effecting the DN.

[eruditus]

I agree Kublai,

i made the mistake, this weekend, of dropping armor dice for VA instead of armor DN. But I will tell you, I liked it more.

I like the idea of shifting the number of dice you use and only in very special circumstances do you alter DNs. It cleaner that way.

Three strikes your out is a good rule too. I was thinking how to work out non-lethal damage. This is probably not a bad fix.

[luke]

i don't really think there is such a thing as "non-lethal damage"

when a cop cracks you with his baton there is a chance that it is going to break something and you are going die.

When you hit someone with the flat of the sword, there is a chance you misjudge it and slice their face off.

If you want to incorporate weapons that have a "stunning" effect, force a Steel test every time they are used, add penalties as necessary. Or have them do additional minus dice for wound penalties.

-abzu

[Kublai]

Please, Abzu, let's keep this conversation related to Wounds. Thanks! :D

Anyway, the wound system as it is already takes into account a method of non-lethal damages. Supies and Lights will bring someone down eventually and they won't die from them. Of course, it might take a while. :roll:

[eruditus]

i don't really think there is such a thing as "non-lethal damage"

-abzu

Sure there is. And that is what i like about this discussion.

Currently the perspective is: if someone hits you and there is no appreciable affect then the damage went under their superficial threshold. However, two people with not a lot of skill and not a lot of power could concievably beat on one another for eons to no ill effect.

With what we're proposing superficials and lights add up to a significant effect (keep the steel test when the die drops, BTW). i like this with Precision combat rules too, because lethality is based on expertise, not just sheer power.

I'd have to look at this but it seems promising.

Just so its very clear, due to me doing a lot of demos recently, when I show someone the system i always show the system the way it IS, not my fixes. I may incorporate playtests and alterations into my home campaigns but never in demos and convention games.

[mike_ravenwood]

lethality is still based on power. If you only have B3 in sword and nothing to fork, you have to spend Artha to get a Superior hit with a sword.

as far as damage I like it the way it is. the lethality is spot on for the style of games I intend to run with BW.

also if make a trait the characters can buy that allows them to ignore certain ammounts of DN increases until they start losing dice. give it a Will prereq, to incorparate their increase mental resillience.

[nebulousmenace]

I of course look at these ideas and go, "Yeah, but there's a more complicated way to do it!"

I like the idea that you could, perhaps, "throw off" the pain of Superficial and Light wounds. If you're like me and you whine about the disproportionate difficulties they induce ALL THE TIME you should have the option to do something about it.

I think that both the options (ignore up to Will of penalties, and "penalty only affects you for one exchange" or whatever) are both a little TOO good.

How 'bout "When you take a penalty, you can take an action, roll Will [at the higher TN] and try to shake it off"? The damage is still there (so 3 Superficials will still get traded in) but you're ignoring it.

So if you take a Superficial, and you're an average character, you can take a sec and refocus, and chances are you're good. If you take a Light, and you take a sec and refocus, you MIGHT be able to work past the pain.

And, naturally, once you stop concentrating (the fight is over) the pain comes back full.

This way, you give players a choice; either take an action to try to overcome the pain, or continue suffering and keep swinging.

Once the penalties go up to +3, of course, they still get traded in for -1D and a Steel Test.

After the fight, you can try a Will test to ignore difficulties on other tasks you do (if you have a Light; superficials can be just "walked off" ) until healed, if you have time. In a fight, for instance, the first thing you're going to want to do is "shake off pain penalties."

One other possibility: If you do this you didn't "favor" the wound, so healing tests might be at an increased difficulty. I sprained my ankle a month ago helping a friend move, and I finished the move anyway. My ankle STILL hasn't entirely healed. . .I wanna be 18 again.

[Kublai]

How 'bout "When you take a penalty, you can take an action, roll Will [at the higher TN] and try to shake it off"? The damage is still there (so 3 Superficials will still get traded in) but you're ignoring it.


Did you know there is a rule that does comething like this already in BW? Of course, it also requires 2 pts of Artha. You take an action and the modifiers for Sup's and Lights are reduced by 1.

[Dwellver]

Changing the DN number should be reserved for reality changing forces, legendary heroics, godlike beings, and in the negatives, major curses. As it stands, the mighty dragon gets a boo boo and is reduced to mundane stature!?!
Instead use the wonderful skill/obs system. Keep track of the DN for wound die, but make a special steel check for the wound effect, for superficials Ob1 for lights Ob2. Normal steel checks supersede the special ones. If the normal check is passed and there is still hestations from a special check, erase the hestations and replot them.
Upon wounding of any kind the character may abort and replot the rest of the exchange.

[eruditus]

I started playtesting the "Sup and Light mods add up to remove dice but do not actually change the DN."

I will let you all know how its going

[luke]

I started playtesting the "Sup and Light mods add up to remove dice but do not actually change the DN.

Eck!

Well, I'll be interested to see how it goes, but i think it is going to make characters a lot more pain resistant and a lot less fearful of combat.

Sups and Lights have to have some effect, otherwise they are dressed up irrelevancies. I kind of liked Claymore's temporary minus dice.

Or maybe just an obstacle penalty? Sheesh, that's nasty, too. But it fits.

-abzu

[eruditus]

oooo, Obstacle penalties :)

[nebulousmenace]

"Sheesh, that's nasty"- I don't think it's any nastier than the die penalties. Rain man moment: for 6 dice [quite common with FoRKs] the math comes out EXACTLY the same.

And the more things you can get on Obstacles, the better.

I'm in favor.

[Angaros]

So, to wake this sleeping thread up... One could also start using both Pain and Trauma as modifiers (from TRoS et al.).

WL Pain / Trauma
-------------------
Su -1 / 0
Li -1 / -1
Mi -2 / -1
Se -2 / -2
Tr -3 / -4
Mo -* / -*

Pain is a modifier only applying to the next volley, while Trauma is a modifier applying until the wound has healed. The modifications are cumulative. All numbers indicate dice losses. Roll for Steel only on Minor wounds and upwards (or something) but don't apply Pain to the Steel roll (or do if you're wicked).

[Drozdal]

Hey Angaros

Quite a while ago Claymore adapted BW cmbat to Tros results could be found here: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=6956

Dro