Burning Shadows [Archive] - The Burning Wheel

Fourth Horseman

02-09-2009, 09:42 AM

Like the name! But given that I couldn't see myself picking up BWC, as it lacks the things that really make BWR stand out for me, I doubt I'd read it for much other than curiousity sake.

How close was it? Just a dark, technological near furture? Did it have all the metahumans, similar magic (this one I'm guessing yes given how close BWR remains), decking, and all that stuff?

EDIT: More importantly, which strain of SR was being played up? Because it's a pretty broad mash-up, and there are a lot of angles and themes mixed into it that you can hit on.

No magic ... it had megacorporations, augmented humans, and a dsytopian future ... but so does William Gibson, so I'd say it bore zero relation to shadowrun, except a burning desire not to be shadowrun. We were so sick of shadowrun we had to destroy the shadowrun world before finishing in it ...

Edit: Of course I speak for myself, who knows maybe Luke thinks SR was the best game there ever was and prays to it nightly for inspiration, so I'm afraid he'll just have to tell you how much it did or did not influence Immo/BW ...

Dwight

02-09-2009, 10:31 AM

No magic ... it had megacorporations, augmented humans, and a dsytopian future ... but so does William Gibson, so I'd say it bore zero relation to shadowrun, except a burning desire not to be shadowrun. We were so sick of shadowrun we had to destroy the shadowrun world before finishing in it ...
Ten years is a long time. And SR has a LOT of "dick" potential inherent in it.

It's something I've been mulling over in my head. I've never nor really had any desire to play the over-the-top-mystic version. You know the type? Where the 5th Grade Initiates are thick on the ground like spent BTLs in a crash pad.

I have never had a dragon in a SR game. Never met an IE (no, I've never played that module or it's sequel). They had no relationship to what we were doing, and only the very Kings of Dickishness of GMs would have brough them in (like that module explicitly stating that Harley just does whatever the hell he wants (http://www.amazon.com/Martha-Stuarts-Better-Entertaining-Parody/dp/0060951710) :confused:). They were just very distant backdrop. The didn't give orders to the people we interacted with. They didn't give orders to the people that gave orders to the people we interacted with.

The metahuman types I could even live without, I dislike how much SR plays them up mechanically. They are just cartoonish blow-ups of character types and stereo-types (the abuse of the racial stand-in role for the later really gets under my skin at times). They certainly have only a very twisted relationship to the Tolkien races in BW. They simultaneously confirm the myths of yore while exposing them as gross exagerations....which I do like in a way. In BW I see them as racial stock Traits at most (chosen very carefully).

The magic I did like, relative to AD&D oh what a relief. For the same reasons I like BW Spirit Binding and Sorcery. It's like Luke managed to extract the antecedant from him SR manual. :) The Astral got a bit much....mostly the Projection, Perception was fine. It all just needed a little toning down.

Been thinking about how to deal with the gameplay issues exemplified by 1000yd. snipers and drones. How the game so encouraged evading and thwarting conflict. :( It's partially an outgrowth of tech. Trying to keep conflicts feeling "personal" in a game with high tech is tricky.

Then the gameplay issues of how you ended up in separate games. SR4 has addressed some of this, the Matrix isn't totally foriegn now. It's pretty easy for anyone to go there (being competent is a different issue) and it's much easier to have meat conflict and matrix conflict run side-by-side. The drones are still the uber, maybe worse because there isn't that impenerable rules barrier to using them that Rigger 3 was. But at least you've got a chance to thwart them in real time. Astral still is somewhat a world onto it's own, again with Projection far more than Perception.

Then we've got Richard Villiers. Of all the canon NPCs easily my favourite. My PC did meet him (that canned module, I forget the name, first SR run ever) but that isn't why. Really I didn't like that I met him but at least I didn't know who he was when I did. No, I liked him because he's so very human. Clawing, eye gouging, and elbowing himself to the top of the heap fueled only by guile and the determination of the meanest SOB you'll ever not what to meet. Dragons? IE? (EDIT: A free spirit named Buttercup?) Oversold relics of times past! :p That he still gets alternately helped and screwed over by his ex and daughter was icing.

RV probably says more about my take on SR than anything.

Tobias

02-10-2009, 02:57 AM

How much testing would I be willing to do? Plenty, but I have no group now and will not go out and form one.

I'll proofread and solo-test, sure, but that's not what's needed, I guess.

And as to what to like about SR: much of the concept, less of the execution. The mechanics were clunky, you pretty much needed a mage to counteract a mage; a decker running in parallel to a ground part posed timing / rules issues, over-the-top supernaturalism should be handled differently.

But the core concept: re-awakening supernatural world in a time of high-tech megacorps dystopia rocks.

Dwight

02-10-2009, 10:20 AM

a decker running in parallel to a ground part posed timing
We just flat out gave up on that pre-SR4. SR4 has made it much more feasible, although the SR4 decking (now known as hacking) rules aren't very polished and need a fair amount of reading between the lines to use. I haven't checked out Unwired yet but it's much less than optimal to "patch" the core book with a supplement. :( But still I'm surprised SR4 pulled it off as much as they have (it's still a little rough though). It's something that's been difficult to execute in any medium. As much as the Matrix movies get blasted at times by "serious" people, I think it's got some of the best simultaneous action out there. I really like the way in which they used metaphors to tie the two together.

Anyway, I'm pretty close to a form of combat that I suspect will be somewhat playable. Or I should say testable, quality not assured! :) It is intended as a plug-in replacement for Fight! and R&C. The first pass for testing I'm going to eyeball and handcraft some characters. Make up some Skill names.

Magic is Phase X right now. It remains unclear if it'll need it's own brand of Sorcery. I have high expectations, based on my use of it, that Spirit Binding will slide in very easily. To pretty much anything, really. I think magic is the most flexible aspect, so mould it as needed to integrate it. I also want this all to stand without magic.

Phase 2 is the Matrix. I'm still trying to figure out what the Matrix means. I expect this is going to be a serious re-imagining on that part. Aiming back at the Film Noir roots. I might actually pick up a book or two for this....any one have some good any suggestions?

Once combat and the matrix are mostly working, Phase 3 is a small set of LPs.

Drones are a real issue, too. I like how wireless plays in a lot of ways. Although I want to emphasis hard links more than SR4 does. I'm too much of a bit-head for the bandwidth issues not to bug me. ;) ((EDIT: plus it's a lot like Teleport is to magic, Grand Central Suckitude)) I might go with roughly the equivalent of AR is the only option for wireless (AKA "turtle"). A much shallower experience that's good for ordering noodles, getting spam about how your penis can be enlarged, and receiving grainy interpersonal communications.

But if you want the full deal to do REAL work you need a hard link. That makes remote drones much less powerful than something you are physically in, and thus physically invested in. ((EDIT: any meaningful AI needs a building or larger to live in, these drones would barely have the capacity of an insect)) Hair-nets are back to "turtle" status. If you want to hang with the real players you go under the knife. Commitment!

I still have to be able to do this. (http://www.shadowrun.us/shadowrun/fasa7100-1.jpg) Note: The reason I'm not ready to post the combat yet is because of that specific image, I want to make sure the math says a team of characters can do it [with danger]. But to be sure of that I have to get set in my mind what the Matrix mechanics are going to be like.

Then there is the whole field of "augmentation". I'm thinking putting in stricter, lower caps. The augmentation at first just lifts the caps, you have to work it up yourself. Really good stuff gives a +1D bonus. Elite stuff supplants the +1D with Gray dice.

Deeds are right out. Deeds seem wrong for the tone. Thus augmentation is the only path to Gray. Magic doesn't even get you there. Starting out a stat Gray (if allowed?) it is assumed to be some sort of full-on augmentation...or wild mutation/evolution?

Anyway, hopefully I'll have something to post before too long so I can throw it in the Spark forum. Since it is extremely unlikely that BWHQ is going to do this. They've got UaSS bubbling....and it looks like it'll be a highly custom job. So very close but very far. *shrug*

stormsweeper

02-10-2009, 11:42 AM

It's not Shadowrun if you can't be a Sorcerer with 10 karma and destroy the universe.

Dwight

02-10-2009, 11:47 AM

It's not Shadowrun if you can't be a Sorcerer with 10 karma and destroy the universe.
So beit.

*overcasts Manaball on the dissenter*

Daniel H.

02-10-2009, 11:55 AM

Phase 2 is the Matrix. I'm still trying to figure out what the Matrix means. I expect this is going to be a serious re-imagining on that part. Aiming back at the Film Noir roots. I might actually pick up a book or two for this....any one have some good any suggestions?
Recently, I read Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson and, while I don't think he takes some of his ideas of the Metaverse far enough (binary world, fantasy vs. reality), it still gave me a lot to think about. If you haven't read it already, it might be good inspiration.

Dwight

02-10-2009, 12:03 PM

Recently, I read Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson and, while I don't think he takes some of his ideas of the Metaverse far enough (binary world, fantasy vs. reality), it still gave me a lot to think about. If you haven't read it already, it might be good inspiration.
Hrmm, perhaps. Yeah, I don't know where that is, likely has disappeared (been a while). Hopefully I can track it down. Have to get this stuff fresh in my mind again. I never read any of this really from an analytical mindset.

Daniel H.

02-10-2009, 12:42 PM

Well, if you wanted to get hardcore there's always Jean Baudrillard. And if you're really interested in conceptions of alternate reality, rather than things that are superficially similar to the Matrix (either in Shadowrun or the eponymous film), there is stuff like Ubik by Philip K. Dick that explores similar territory.

Dwight

02-10-2009, 01:17 PM

Ubik is Project Doughnut territory. I looking more towards all that girl stuff. Stealing, boning, blowing shit up.

Daniel H.

02-10-2009, 02:33 PM

Ubik is Project Doughnut territory.
Hm, interesting. I think it has some relevance but maybe I initially misunderstood what you were looking for. Are you also going back to books like The Big Sleep?

Dwight

02-10-2009, 03:51 PM

Hm, interesting. I think it has some relevance but maybe I initially misunderstood what you were looking for. Are you also going back to books like The Big Sleep?
Although tech and society changes put a slightly different face on it, that's the main parentage. Think closer to Heat or Strange Days for the meat side.

Ubik (which apparently is close to being shot on film BTW) and say something like Dark City really give a massive mixing of worlds to the point that there is only one world, and what is real and surreal is intractably blurred. They are largely IMO about the headgames that come out of that. Dark City especially is Don't Rest Your Head territory.

EDIT: I'm looking for people, faceless corps, and fatally corrupt governments to lie to you. Not time and space.

Thinking more about it that's the gradient across the mixing of the 3 worlds, the tricky balance. If you get the worlds too close together you lose the separation. The electronic becomes nigh indistinguishable from "reality" [for the characters] and muscles into magic's territory. The tech also loses some of that crucial dehumanizing aspect for contrast, it becomes too organic. But have the 3 worlds too far apart and you smash the game table apart with players often playing in isolation of each other.

"Where Man meets Magic and Machine." Not where Man becomes Magic and Machine. Yes, that has the implication of coming up well short of a full transhuman society, certainly getting no closer than say Blade Runner did.

P.S. Transhumansim is something the Shadowrun line has been dabbling in much more recently, though I think it's not very well suited for it.

John

02-10-2009, 05:17 PM

.dwight:

you have made some really valid points and brought up some of the things I love about SR, I think many people gripe about it for valid reasons but anyone can play anyway they like...

from uncybered dark future
to cyberpunk
to magic cyberpunk

whatever rocks your boat, so no point in moaning about it...

anyhow to give you some context on how we played back when we were young - meat & magic = group; decker = npc; pc drones = no for no particular reason.

so your points about the parallel play are very valid.

I do not agree with your view that "sneaking" means running away from conflict, much of the game is sneaking and not shooting - at least for me, the key problem with sneaking was that it caused over planning and if the GM pushed the buttons had no chance to succeed (GM*s choice of course). So playing "Sneaker" the film in dystopia is totally acceptable interpretation of SR for me.

Your assessment that you will be judged by your combat system however is totally correct - the key is that firearms and melee belong together completely together (NB this gripe here (http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?t=7117) about ammo).

So fire away and show us what you got - I am awaiting Ares Predator 1 in hand.

Dwight

02-10-2009, 06:17 PM

I do not agree with your view that "sneaking" means running away from conflict, much of the game is sneaking and not shooting - at least for me, the key problem with sneaking was that it caused over planning and if the GM pushed the buttons had no chance to succeed (GM*s choice of course).
I wasn't refering to the "sneaking" per say, though that is an ideal that many SR players aspire to adhere to in maddeningly extreme lengths. It was/is the mechanics that scream at the players to attempt perfect planning, 1000yd. sniper shots, and other *cough*C4*cough* means to keep as much distance between them an danger as possible.

Your assessment that you will be judged by your combat system however is totally correct - the key is that firearms and melee belong together completely together
My criteria includes:
- You can [try] gank someone even if it wasn't a great idea to show up at a gunfight with a knife.

Implied in that though is that it won't be a dominate strategy, definitely not used solo. There are a number of specialization builds that have worked in SR combat that are going to be less effective and/or require a lot of team help. Specializing in melee and going up against firearms is generally going to be quick ticket to ride Doc Wagon.

Something else I included was grenades (manually thrown, airburst I'm not sure about yet). Because as far as I'm concerned it isn't Shadowrun till someone does the "ring trick". But even the frag grenades mostly work as a threat to push the opponent around and/or denial of access to an area rather than direct damage, unless the opponent is very unlucky or ignores the threat.

P.S. Kate Beckinsale's character fired a weapon in Underworld? :confused: Oh yeah, I guess she did. I'd barely noticed. ;)

Tobias

02-11-2009, 05:53 AM

Some random thoughts, on re-reading the thread

Metahumans/LPs:
- Racial stock traits, indeed. (With a sprinkling of LP's requiring certain racial stock traits)
- Have just one 'born' LP, say, 4years, with a first trait of 'born in a shadowy future', all the other racial traits as optional (and mutually exclusive)
- Have some 'youth' LPs (slum, corporate, reservation, etc.).

Astral reality:
- Yes, tone it down, please, because with just one mage in the party, everything suddenly needed astral shielding or was wide-open vulnerable

Dealing with gameplay issues due to evading and thwarting conflict:
- have a more rigorous law-enforcement response to use of heavy (sniper / drone) weaponry. or a corps: you snipe us, we kill your family policy
- have the accessibility of such equipment lower
- assign more personal missions
- have fewer wetwork missions: presumably, not all the corps are sniping and firebombing each other all the time: the tech is there, but mostly unused, I'd imagine.
- making it feel personal in a high tech environment: emotional attribute related to cyberhood?

Gameplay in seperate games:
- We also had the NPC hackers, yes. But you say S4 fixes this to a point (I only have up to S3). You can of course give the hacker a virtual presence among the runners, as what he's doing is reacting in 'real time' to the group on the ground anyway. He's diving his attention. So sure, perhaps he inserts early, and preps certain areas (linked tests? setting a dispo vs. the ICE?), but he still has to make that lift door next to the group open right NOW. (Hacking vs. Ob2, with suitable prep, or something).
- drones being the uber: 'just' shield/jam data traffic to drones in certain areas (inside compounds) and/or make the datastream hard to mask by a hacker. Makes 'suited up' droning more attractive as well.
- Astral: as mentioned before: tone down.

Fight! / R&C meld:
- Agreed: you want to have the color of SR1 book cover make mechanical sense as well. One option could be to make 'orichalcum' (overpowered and boring as heck) much more common but poor for ammo, and re-design the magical/spiritual critters to not be ranged. Then almost every sword would be immediately useful for itself as well as supernatural creature whacking. Or, borrowing from the matrix, it's not so much the exact weapon you have (it's all mentality/ability in the end), but the variations you're able to throw at your opponent. A Shot (Point/Attack) isn't better in every circumstance than a Katanastrike (Dismiss/Lock)
- What about 'just' re-focussing the weapon ranges? Long-distance fire is out (seperate resolution mechanism). 'Mixed' combat has:
Longer: Assault Range
Long: Gun range
Optimal: Long weapon range
Inside: everything shorter than a long weapon

And moving from range to range should be somewhat easier, probably

What the Matrix MEANS:
- it's all about easy display of information & cost-efficiency. Marketing, communications, education, entertainment, tele-presence.

Augmentation:
- Traits, right? One trait may lift a cap, one trait may boost it, etc.
- Starting out grey: sure, grey speed with full cybered reflexes trait... why not? Just balance with Cyber EA.

Dwight

02-11-2009, 09:39 AM

emotional attribute related to cyberhood?
It would be a very strange use of EA I think. Reach 10 and you become machine, dying [as a human]. The only way it Advances is adding implants or taking drugs. Or getting vamped? The only way to stave it off from implants is using cybermancy as part of the implant procedure. That reduces or negates what you pick up on the EA but as a side effect picking up Traits?

You could be using cybermancy for that very first implant. Not exactly canon but I think it'd be more interesting. Semi-random Trait table?

I can't really think of an actual use for the exponent, other that tracking your path to becoming inhuman. ... maybe adding an exponent to whatever Awakened actions? Combined with cybermancy from the start it'd create a twist on the old Geas.

Hrmm, what to call it. Essense is out, this in the negative of that. I'd rather not use the name with a negative qualitifer, clunky. "Machine"? "Mecha"? "Machana"/"Machina" to go pretentious? Ultra-pretentious with "Yanka"? :)

Oh wait, in-setting it'd be something like Ailiuya or Ozidano. My preference is the latter.

In all a very weird use of "Emotional Attribute". It feels a little heavy even if it is better than tracking Essence to 3-significant digits. :p EDIT: After all Essence was largely a game concession, and a bit ham-handed at that, to mitigating the equivalent of Tank Mages. I'm not sure that's going to be much of an issue.

Anyway, the key to making it work at all is combat and decking. Back to work on that....

Tobias

02-11-2009, 10:39 AM

Browser ate my post. try again later

John

02-11-2009, 02:55 PM

I wasn't refering to the "sneaking" per say, though that is an ideal that many SR players aspire to adhere to in maddeningly extreme lengths. It was/is the mechanics that scream at the players to attempt perfect planning, 1000yd. sniper shots, and other *cough*C4*cough* means to keep as much distance between them an danger as possible.

Yes I have been cause of many a planning marathon that would have been better solved by an A-Team-converted-van-full frontal assault.

Implied in that though is that it won't be a dominate strategy, definitely not used solo. There are a number of specialization builds that have worked in SR combat that are going to be less effective and/or require a lot of team help. Specializing in melee and going up against firearms is generally going to be quick ticket to ride Doc Wagon.

True, but you gotta gank him - otherwise that long established site of the Troll ganger with lamppost in his hand storming towards you will fade to quickly -- mind you usually our troll with the assault cannon took care of him. But what I mean is that some of the grit is from actually close-up-blood-on-your-hands-and-vomit-on-your-flak-jacket-action close combat is just a cool part of the setting.

Something else I included was grenades (manually thrown, airburst I'm not sure about yet). Because as far as I'm concerned it isn't Shadowrun till someone does the "ring trick". But even the frag grenades mostly work as a threat to push the opponent around and/or denial of access to an area rather than direct damage, unless the opponent is very unlucky or ignores the threat.

Oh grenades, how many a random room has been cleared by chars by puling-the-pin, counting down to 2, opening the door dropping the grenade in and ducking for cover. Seriously what the grenade does it provides a great leveller for the unskilled combatant. Just lobing a bunch of grenades pins incredible well...

So bring it on Mr .dwight ready to rock and load and roll and reload... :D

Daniel H.

02-11-2009, 03:13 PM

Think closer to Heat or Strange Days for the meat side.
I almost mentioned Strange Days before. Now I think I'm with you.

John

02-11-2009, 03:35 PM

oh I agree that Essence is not necessarily a classical BW EA but it has that special quality you would tend to associate with EA.

if you push it away that one only has social dis-benefits (or even benfits pending where you are) from being chromed that does not cut the mustard, if you allow magic then the cyber-v-magic paradigm needs to be maintained.

dwight's argument it only rarely goes up raises an important point that one always had to deal with in SR, we never allowed Zombies but even the SR1 sammy was near the flat line - how did that char develop cyber-wise except spend loads and loads on beta and delta ware. that was a conundrum we never solved.
all in all quite a few of our SR chars were rather static in a development / power-up sense actually

Dwight

02-11-2009, 04:54 PM

if you push it away that one only has social dis-benefits (or even benfits pending where you are) from being chromed that does not cut the mustard,
In SR it might not have been. Really it never much worked there. BW Traits are a different matter, and backed by the Duel of Wits give real bite without a lot of the harsh dictation of SR Flaws. There was this great fluff about the Init booster 'ware and winding down of Essence in general that the rules never backed it up!

if you allow magic then the cyber-v-magic paradigm needs to be maintained.
This is true. Something must be done to emphasis these two forces at odds, it is a key theme in the setting. Maybe this is still the best way to handle it. *shrug* But I get the strong sense that in this application the EA approach has the stench of a Golden Hammer. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_hammer) I love EAs to pieces but they are temptresses to abuse.

all in all quite a few of our SR chars were rather static in a development / power-up sense actually
This is a big part of my problem with how SR treated Essence loss. It was this hard limit. You ran into it *boink* and that was it. SR4 addresses some of the static nature in implants from the nuyen side, with the serious rescaling and pricing overhauls. That has helped a bit, there isn't quite the same mad rush to 0.01 Essence at chargen. And in SR4 there is still effectively no differentiation for mundanes between 1.99 and 0.01. There isn't even much in the way of difference between 6.00 and 0.01.

Then suddenly going from 0.01 to 0.00 you get the hard flip to Cyber Zombie. Very binary. Yuck.

EDIT: I'm pretty happy with how Reload is working on the bench. It's smoother than Firefight!'s and doesn't require an extra roll or adding up a lot of +D and +Ob mods. Still requires 2 weapon specific stats (to handle a large range of options) and tracking a weapon specific state for a few types of weapons. I think it'll encourage interesting choices too. Now if it survives contact with actual play and players.... :)

EDIT2: BTW I'm very close to tossing MW and the whole PTGS Wheel on the bonfire. I've resisted, worried that it is just my prejudice against it talking and worried about the can of worms that'll open. But if I make the 'ware you can take Fort and Power based I might just pull it off with the BW core still functioning very close to norm.

luke

02-11-2009, 05:39 PM

I'm going to regret commenting on this thread, but why not make installation of cybernetics require a "Rejection" test. Test could be 10 minus Essence or something. Could add dice for surgery, add penalties for magic. Add consequence for failure -- you'd have MOS and MOF states.

The lower your Essence, the higher the obstacle to keep the piece.

Or something.

Dwight

02-11-2009, 06:30 PM

I'm going to regret commenting on this thread
I surely hope not. Thanks for the bravery and the contribution. :)

add penalties for magic
To understand that better, a penalty for each Sorcerous Skill openned? At the same price as the dice added if you were FoRKing it? Or if you were providing Help with the Skill? A penalty for each magical Trait? Things like that?

Hmmm. It strikes me as a bit of a flip in perspective where magic is violating/obstructing tech rather than the other way around. Maybe that isn't a bad thing? Magic coming back to reassert itself. It has potential, again thanks.

luke

02-11-2009, 10:34 PM

I don't know how magic works in the game. It'd depend on that.

Dwight

02-12-2009, 12:19 AM

I don't know how magic works in the game. It'd depend on that.
Assumptions I've been running on but go ahead and suggest otherwise:

Spirit Binding = Old Shamanic [done right :) ]
Summoning, probably also Homunculus = Old Hermetic (no keeping Elementals on Pokemon standby)
Sorcery** = Sorcery
Second Sight = Astral Perception
Spirit Nature = closest to Astral Projection (mortals just don't do this) but default is Manifested
Aura Reading = Assensing
Dual-Natured = Materialized spirit (you can kill the meat relatively easily, unlike the uber-spirits mentioned above)
Possession (Blossoms Are Falling version if you've got the book)= stands in for various possession stuff (eg. Bug Spirits, although it's expanded beyond that in SR now EDIT: hrmm, come to think of it this won't really do Shedim because they only possess corpses or human bodies vacated during Projection...just scratch that form the setting is easiest)
Weapon with spirit runes = Weapon Focus

** This and how to get "spirit runes" on a weapon are, for me, the foggy parts of that list. The rest I'm thinking straight BW rules.

The issue with Sorcery is SR traditionally increased difficulty when attempting direct alteration on highly processed materials (as opposed to indirect like manifesting fire/acid and then steering onto the target). Would like to keep that somehow, like bumping the Ob. You know, maybe Art Magic is better suited to handle this? Damn I need to find my MagBu ... I can't envision how it'd work without looking at it. This could be how to work in the idea of Essence? Tax Essence instead of Fort? Total replace of Sorcery with something custom rolled?

Not addressed in that list is Blood Magic/Atzlan. Allow opt-in for Corruption (I know that's non-standard)? Haven't seen Corruption in play yet so I couldn't say.

-- -- --

No wrong answers .... go!

Tobias

02-12-2009, 02:31 AM

Ok, take 2. In the post that was eaten, I also mention Corruption.

Lemme try to get back what I said.

I say, make a EA called 'Cyber' for now. It's not about Essence, it's about you letting go of your (meat (&soul, if you're thusly inclined)) human self and embracing the machine(s) inside you. Like the no-mind fighting trance of the (zen?) samurai, but in this case slipping into the machine state more than human state. This has some nice color parallels and pitfalls as well. Plus you can have 'meditation', or a suchlike skill, work similarly to Laments. Take Ghost from the novels: I envision him having a high meditation skill (equivalent).

There's 'heavy' cyber, and 'light' cyber. Getting heavy cyber is the (required?) lifepath trait for a number of LPs (street sammy, organized crime sammy, corp sammy, independent rigger, etc.). Every 'cyber' trait adds to your Cyber EA: 'Heavy Cyber' adds 2. A high Cyber EA is a social boon with other owners of the Heavy Cyber, a social drawback to non-owners of the heavy cyber trait.

Tapping your Cyber for short term benefit gets you hyper-efficiency (dice), but like Greed, you risk losing yourself to it... at high cyber, black-out periods (tests of Will vs. Cyber?) or something like that may become more common.

So here's a (personal) development path that can be insteresting even to the heavily-cybered, other than plowing ever more money into ever more alpha/beta/gamma ware.

So I have no clue how Corruption works (no MaBu), but since we're toning down the supernatural, I can imagine getting Raw Sorcerous power also involves 'giving in' to the essence of magic. (Is that Corruption)? Then you'd also know where all those supernatural beasties come from: they're people who hit 'Shadowrun Corruption EA' 10.

You can't give in to both the Cyber and the magic simultaneously. Technomancers: no. (Don't even know what cybermancy is). Magic is raw, primal, and primitive. It doesn't tolerate the incredible detailed level of control that cyber tries to achieve. It isn't reproducable in the details, only in the broad strokes. Every heal spell affects the body differently, for instance.

High Cyber and high 'Magic' EA's (and their manifestations: cyberware and spells) resist each other due to their opposing effects: hyper-control vs raw effect.

Luke comments about installing cyber can then be taken on board. I'd suggest you'd never want to kill a char from installing cyber (or over-partaking of raw magical power) but just FUBAR them in story-propelling ways.

Some other random shout-outs: let's get away from the stock fantasy races (unless you all still think they're essential color) and have just one 'positive humanoid mutant' (elf/source of all those drawings of big-eyed aliens) and one 'negative humanoid mutant' (ogre!).

I wouldn't toss PTGS unless it failed at modeling what you want. Is it?

I'm whipping up LP's in my head related to the EA's, I'll see if they work out to something that are helpful to toolup up the new Fight! system.

Dwight

02-12-2009, 07:29 AM

Addendum to my last post (going to have to think about Tobias' last post a lot).

Sorcery's existing Spells could already have some problems in any that do damage. The more I work on combat the harder I'm leaning towards not using calculated MW and the Wheel. It is gets too tweaky with the Wheel trying to keep it down/up to Fight! danger levels, I'm fighting both a tendency for too much AND too little unpredictability coming in. I think this stems from the nature of firearms in a "big picture" historical sense. Why this (http://imager.cc/page10/swordtotinggrandma/) isn't quite as scary as this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNjUpR7qwNE).

Damage is still based on the six tolerance conditions but they are derived direct without using the Wheel. Basically you have conditions that are Type:Tolerance. Example is Wound:Midi. The first term I see as more open-ended so getting tear-gassed could be Poison:Su[perfical]. EDIT: Might even change to Gunshot:Midi, not sure yet. I like how this paints a mental image that sticks with you about how you got it, and how bad it is (better the name than the number for Tolerance). It lingers with you like the pain or a scar. So better way to put it generally is Source:Tolerance.

It'd be weird to keep using the Wheel elsewhere so any damage expressed as Shade:Exponent is an orphan. How this is done with melee damage [at the moment] involves a direct Attacker Power to Target Forte comparison sorted into the three categories of "less than", "equal to +/-1", "greater than". Since Forte is so heavily behind the PTGS anyway this works out to similar in nature. This exact mechanic could change a bit, I'm still finalizing reconciling the melee grid against the ranged grid and deriving dmg calc is one of the few remaining wigglerooms.

Dwight

02-12-2009, 08:35 AM

Warning: Jazz Riffing Ahead

Dual EA Tracks: Cyber and Corruption

Cyber's exponent used as a +Ob for any Sorcerous Skill Test.

When you get a new implant there is a Linked Test for Rejection. Whomever is doing the implantation does a Corruption Test (cybermancy) or Surgery Test (cyber surgery), or both (MOS in dice or just +1D? EDIT:gauging potential dice pool size and Ob, just +1D each, need those Health Tests for advancement too ;)). Patient then does a Health Test (unlike normal Linked Tests you can't back out halfway). Base Ob is Cyber. +Ob for having magical Traits and Skills. You can tap Corruption if you've got it, of course. ;) MOF defines/influences "bad stuff" consequences. Roughly from worst to least worst:
- lose magical trait (if none suffer next least worst)
- permanent Health Tax (if total Tax from wounds + cyber ever > Health go into comma with Forte minutes to live)
- lose points off magical Skill (drop below 0 means it's no longer open!) (if none suffer next least worst)
- gain trait
- lose point of Health

So now we've got a more level playing field of who violates/obstructs who. Oh, and losing a point of Health is as good as it gets when you fail Health Test. :o

Once that's done increase Cyber and/or Corruption. If Corruption was Linked into Health Test above you must allocate at least some to Corruption. Add Trait as per Corruption rules.

Issue: How to add Implants during chargen? The Answer(tm) is NOT "rolling as above and potentially having a character die during chargen". :D Probably just adding dice to Cyber or Corruption as needed, with a starting cap on each that effectively limits implants taken. EDIT: Alternate is Implants as Traits, dole out to Cyber and/or Corruption exponent as desired.

-- -- -- -- --

Implants In Play

Each implant gives a very basic function plus a Cyber effect. Basic function always present. Tap Cyber (and get a Test) for Cyber effect. Depending on implant you choose it could be adding total Cyber for a specific or kind of Test, or just a flat effect. Flat effect might be better? Maybe you need 2 or more synergistic implants to be used in Intent to use Cyber exponent dice in Task? If you roll Cyber any implants named are in play for consequences of failure? I use my leg and arm implants to try flip over the Americar. Failure is [EDIT: potentially] blowing out a cyber-knee or my arms partially separate from my poor ol' meat torso.

Dwight

02-12-2009, 09:00 AM

Cyber Surgery always inflicts a wound (Tramatic? Serious?). So if your Health is too low coming in and the dice treat you badly in the Rejection Test you put yourself in peril of dying on the operating table.

Getting implants is striking me less and less as nuyen limited. Hot!

Dwight

02-12-2009, 09:48 AM

Implants in Play: Mark II

Each implant gives a very basic utilitarian function (eg increase Power cap by 1). It also has a Cyber dice value. The Cyber is what is added to Corruption/Cyber during implantation. It is also how many dice can be tapped for the Task when the implant is used as part of Intent. Dice from multiple implants used in Intent stack up to Cyber exponent.

When tapping Cyber any implants named are in play for consequences of failure. For example I use my leg and arm implants to try flip over the Americar. The arms are 1D Cyber, the Legs are 2D. I can use up to 3D for the Test, assuming my Cyber is at least B3. Failure consequence is potentially blowing out a cyber-knee or my arms partially separate from my poor ol' meat torso.

luke

02-12-2009, 09:54 AM

Huh. I really like the idea that your cybernetics are not individually important, it's their aggregate that matters.

Dwight

02-12-2009, 10:06 AM

Huh. I really like the idea that your cybernetics are not individually important, it's their aggregate that matters.
I do too! But there might be issues unless its just the aggregate that's pertinent to the task. The problem I was foreseeing was taping in the middle of a gun battle, more specifically NPC "fodder" tapping in the middle of the gun battle, and just blowing PCs out of the water.

Hrmm but then either they don't have much Cyber or they shouldn't be fodder..... :confused:

OK, maybe I'm just worrying and overthink it. I should learn to love and embrace the whole of Cyber. :)

Spend Persona to tap you think?

luke

02-12-2009, 10:26 AM

Could act like Nature and have descriptors. Implants could raise the exponent and/or alter descriptors.

You could then have a list of descriptors broken down into permissible tasks.

Dwight

02-12-2009, 10:49 AM

Freeform Implant Creation

Emotional Attribute:
All implants increase Cyber (or alternatively Corruption) by 1.

Tech class/description:
Cyber, bioware, nanite, etc. This is colour only, it all counts towards the Cyber EA.

Body Position:

What part of the body is being augmented or replaced. Mostly colour but you need to use this colour in the Intent when tapping the Cyber dice.

Basic function:
This is what it always does for you. Examples are:
- increase cap on a stat by 1 (caps all normally start at 6(?)), anything that seems reasonable; Math CPU increases Perception cap, Pheromone Glands increase Will cap, Cyber hands increase Agility cap, Bone Lacing increase Forte cap, Legs Speed or Power, and so on
- reduce certain kind of Ob penalty by 1, Pain Editor nullifies effects of a Superficial, Cyber Eyes nullifies 1Ob of lighting penalties, Ultrasound Sensor nullifies another 1Ob of vision penalties
- +1D to specific Skill, limit of +1D per Skill total

Drawback:
This is a Character Trait. Move-By-Wire could be "Twitchy", Adrenal Gland maybe is "Tweaker", Leg augmentation's is "Stiff Gait", and so on.

Cost:
LP Implants cost 1(?) pnts, maximum one listed per LP and are considered high fat contributors. As a general Trait cost is 4 pnts.

EDIT: Ninja'd!

Dwight

02-12-2009, 11:01 AM

More examples of basic functions:

Retinal Overlay - HUD, overlays remote menus, grainy visual communications, etc.
Virtual Sim - allows you to swap meat consciousness for e-world consciousness (opens you up to dump shock)
Weaponlink - communication link with weapon, allows at-will Fire Select but also synergy with AR/VR to overlay/experience view from weapons camera or with Battlefield router to pass camera data on to others
Battlefield router - allows at-will passing to teammates the +1D gained from successful Assess action

EDIT:
Language Processing Unit (LPU) - processing module that runs whatever language programs you have for on-the-fly language translation

Dwight

02-12-2009, 12:18 PM

>> list of descriptors broken down into permissible tasks.

Since I don't want to create all this, leaving it as a table exercise, I'm not sure they need to all be enumerated explicitly up front.

Body Position + Tech Description are the written words that the collective understanding hangs on when deciding what's in and out. Basic Function puts a finer point on it but does not necessarily represent the full extent of function (eg. Bone lacing for Forte can also colour tapping Cyber for barehanded melee attacks). A new breeding grounds for Dice Bitching? Perhaps. *shrug* But then you've got the Persona admission price and the end of the Cyber road coming too as you chalk up Advancement checks.

John

02-12-2009, 12:25 PM

ok trying to catch up here but there giants have moved mountains while I was at work...

You can't give in to both the Cyber and the magic simultaneously. Technomancers: no. (Don't even know what cybermancy is). Magic is raw, primal, and primitive. It doesn't tolerate the incredible detailed level of control that cyber tries to achieve. It isn't reproducable in the details, only in the broad strokes. Every heal spell affects the body differently, for instance.
...
Some other random shout-outs: let's get away from the stock fantasy races (unless you all still think they're essential color) and have just one 'positive humanoid mutant' (elf/source of all those drawings of big-eyed aliens) and one 'negative humanoid mutant' (ogre!).

Technomancers are not magicians but naturally attuned to the matrix, its the story of the kid that only needs a data jack to log in (in the old days) or now is wireless in his own right -- think Hana Gitelman - wireless girl from Heroes (http://heroeswiki.com/Hana_Gitelman). The naturally form programms etc. I would not call them magicians but they are handled like smelly spelly-types. Would make that optional...

On races: I think you do not necessarily need separate lifepaths for them but I think they are core to SR flavour, make them optional for those that think all them flying dragons are poo but leave the option via traits. IMHO your suggestion with the elf/ogre is half hearted it neither takes it away nor does it leave the option for the flavour - but that is just my opinion.

Will now try and digest the work on cyberware it looks very promising...

John

02-12-2009, 01:10 PM

commented

Freeform Implant Creation

Emotional Attribute:
All implants increase Cyber (or alternatively Corruption) by 1.

Tech class/description:
Cyber, bioware, nanite, etc. This is colour only, it all counts towards the Cyber EA.

The type of ware is IMHO slightly more than pure colour, I think it effects the trait if any. I do think bioware muscle augmentation should have different trait to muscle replacment - even more so if cultured v second hand for instance.
Why do you want every implant to increase Cyber by one? I think you need to provide either more granularity or slots. Having a cyber torso cannot have the same impact as having a orienteering system. Now this makes it difficult. My first instinct was to say every operation increases cyber by one but then you are back to where we were with the no-upgrade path.
Although it is potentially a painful step I think you need to go with something like slots:
* arms - you got something in them it costs you a cyber point, a little bit more still fits
* cyber arms - cost you two points but lots of room for stuff
etc
Core should also be how "de-naturalising" something is. This is something SR also included and I think it makes sense. If you wanna be an Elf-poser, that might be an unnatural urge but should be treated as insane and high cyber.

Body Position:

What part of the body is being augmented or replaced. Mostly colour but you need to use this colour in the Intent when tapping the Cyber dice.
Good and needed SR was alwas slightly grey/random on this a cyber arm could improve overall strength which was not always accurate. In reverse you address some of this nicely by having "a cyber percentage".

Basic function:
This is what it always does for you. Examples are:
1.) increase cap on a stat by 1 (caps all normally start at 6(?)), anything that seems reasonable; Math CPU increases Perception cap, Pheromone Glands increase Will cap, Cyber hands increase Agility cap, Bone Lacing increase Forte cap, Legs Speed or Power, and so on
2.) reduce certain kind of Ob penalty by 1, Pain Editor nullifies effects of a Superficial, Cyber Eyes nullifies 1Ob of lighting penalties, Ultrasound Sensor nullifies another 1Ob of vision penalties
3.) +1D to specific Skill, limit of +1D per Skill total
Math CPU is an example of something that is very specific, its a call on for all statistical, mathematical and engineering actions rather than a perception increaser imho. Its similar to your category 3 above or maybe a separate category.

Drawback:
This is a Character Trait. Move-By-Wire could be "Twitchy", Adrenal Gland maybe is "Tweaker", Leg augmentation's is "Stiff Gait", and so on.
I would use SR as guidance here, not everything brings a drawback

Cost:
LP Implants cost 1(?) pnts, maximum one listed per LP and are considered high fat contributors. As a general Trait cost is 4 pnts.
daft question: high fat contributors? do they give arterial problems :D
I think there should be different levels of costs like for any other trait...

More examples of basic functions:

Retinal Overlay - HUD, overlays remote menus, grainy visual communications, etc.
Virtual Sim - allows you to swap meat consciousness for e-world consciousness (opens you up to dump shock)
Weaponlink - communication link with weapon, allows at-will Fire Select but also synergy with AR/VR to overlay/experience view from weapons camera or with Battlefield router to pass camera data on to others
Battlefield router - allows at-will passing to teammates the +1D gained from successful Assess action

EDIT:
Language Processing Unit (LPU) - processing module that runs whatever language programs you have for on-the-fly language translation

This needs some pondering... but good going guys!

Dwight

02-12-2009, 01:23 PM

Technomancers ... handled like smelly spelly-types. Would make that optional...
Highly controversial to say the least. ;) Warning: I haven't read Emergence and I'm not super excited by Technomancers yet.

No to magic. I say handle with Implant Traits. Technology Description is tech induced mutation evolution. Makes it easy to pick and choose what you want. If the mega-watt biological radio station works for you colour it up! Or you can just colour it as required touch or even a DJ. Great chance to give the Freeform Implant Creation a whirl.

Techonmancer Wifi (Imp, 4pnts)

Tech class/description:
Crash 2.0 EMP surge mutation. Reorganized biology mimicking electronic circuitry.

Body Position:
Full Central Nervous System, body's nerves act as antenna.

Basic function:
Extra-sensory input/output of radio waves within LOS. Allows the equivalent of a Retinal Overlay dealing with these.

Drawback:
Obsessed With EMF

Go ahead anyone else that's played with Technomancers. Give it a try, see if you can build up a something like a working Technomancer set using 3 Implant Traits. ((I know you don't know the matrix mechs, just think in broader strokes rather than a list of 20 distinct programs and you'll be fine. ))

Yes you could theoretically mix magic and this but by the time you had anything worthwhile for messing in the e-world you'd have a serious magic Ob penalty. We don't do clear-cut "No" here, plenty of rope for everyone! :)

On races:
I feel cheaper Dt being available are appropriate. But not a single fixed set of "you get all these for being an Elf/Dwarf/Orc/Troll". Piecemeal them out I think he's sort on track but came up short. Then if you want to build the cliche you'll have to work hard at it and work the LP web. :p

Dwight

02-12-2009, 01:29 PM

Ok, looking at that "Drawback" should use title "Side Effect" instead.

John

02-12-2009, 02:39 PM

Highly controversial to say the least. ;) Warning: I haven't read Emergence and I'm not super excited by Technomancers yet.

Arggh sometimes good comes from bad! I was trying to say SR4 handles Technomancers like magicians! Not that Burning Shadows should! I am not overly excited by them in SR4.

Your suggestion is therefore down my lines anyway.

On races II

I am not generally a fan of working the LP machine just to get something like pointy ears, maybe horns is a better example. It always limits the option for a young trog.
I realise that many people do not like the races in SR and that is why I think they should optional. It might be easiest to have a born LP for each races and then let them roll from there, a couple of LP that just are not accessible or potentially prescribed.
But that is just me..

On Cyber
Maybe the attribute should be described as Invasion (or similar), in SR the term essence is fairly good at what describes, the ripping up of flesh & soul and mechanising it.

Dwight

02-12-2009, 02:52 PM

The type of ware is IMHO slightly more than pure colour, I think it effects the trait if any. I do think bioware muscle augmentation should have different trait to muscle replacment - even more so if cultured v second hand for instance.
Think like Character Traits. Colour becomes mechanic when tapping Cyber EA.

This is a re-imagining working with broader strokes. That's why whether it is bioware, cyberware, nanoware, or wavonium powered is below our granularity. It also allows your table to choose the tech emphasis. Do you want SR1-2 before bioware? Do you want SR3 where cyberware is still state-of-art? Do you want late-SR3/SR4 where nanites are emerging and bioware is now clearly bleeding edge and cyberware is more a niche application? Your table decides!

Why do you want every implant to increase Cyber by one? I think you need to provide either more granularity or slots.
Go pull an old SR character sheet. Count the pieces of 'ware installed, post 'em here. Lets work with a real list.

Math CPU is an example of something that is very specific, its a call on for all statistical, mathematical and engineering actions rather than a perception increaser imho. Its similar to your category 3 above or maybe a separate category.
It wasn't perception, it is Perception. The later includes something much larger. But you'd see it more as a C-O for a small set of given Skills. I personally think Cryptography as a far better choice, you can squeeze all those above functions you mention above onto an [overpriced] $30 calculator today. :) But if you'd rather the 80's computational sensibility, rock on!
Bottom line is do up an Implant like you want. Size as a 2-3pnt Trait for the Basic Function, so be careful on the scope! Your interpretation scope is better suited for tapping Cyber.

Dwight

02-12-2009, 02:55 PM

I was trying to say SR4 handles Technomancers like magicians!
It's how they doodled their system design. The way the riffed the design it's a bit like magic is related to technomancers. But really only in the same way that DoW is like Firefight!

John

02-12-2009, 03:36 PM

It wasn't perception, it is Perception. The later includes something much larger. But you'd see it more as a C-O for a small set of given Skills. I personally think Cryptography as a far better choice, you can squeeze all those above functions you mention above onto an [overpriced] $30 calculator today. :) But if you'd rather the 80's computational sensibility, rock on!
It does not really matter, but again I think its the other way round, crypto gets helped by statistical analysis... but anyhow.

Go pull an old SR character sheet. Count the pieces of 'ware installed, post 'em here. Lets work with a real list.

ok, this is going to be rough and ready as I tended to play the under-cybered-mundane-investigator/useless guy... :D

here goes an example of what semi-sammy of mine would look like - nb this is the cheap and cheerful guy:

Cyberwares
Flare Compensation
Smartlink
Bone Lacing : Plastic
Hand Razors (Retractable)
Wired Reflexes (Rating 1)
Commlink II

Biowares
Enhanced Articulation
Platelet Factories

8 enhancements loads of space with Essence 2.65

Orc detective of a friend played:

Cyberwares
Dermal Plating (Rating 2)
Commlink (1/2)

Biowares
Synaptic Booster 1
Muscle Augmentation 1
Damage Compensators 1
5 implants 4.4 Essence

Mr Headstuff:

Cyberwares
Commlink (3/3)
Datajack
Data Lock (Encryption 4)
Ultrasound Sensor
+ Secondary Voice Pattern (Rating 4)
Cybereyes Basic System (Rating 3)
Eye Recording Unit
Image Link
Smartlink
Cyberears (Rating 2)
Skillwires (Rating 3)
Fingertip Compartment

Biowares
Enhanced Articulation
Suprathyroid Gland
Synaptic Booster 2

Think some ratings are too high and he spent to much cash but the principle for Mr Head holds true: 11 Cyber + 3 Bioware enhancements Essence 2.35

Now these are my style of play... if we look at the SR4 archetypes:
Smuggler 7 Cyberware Essence 2.8
Sammy 4 Cyberware Essence 0.8

I still think you need to provide "slots" little bits cost less humanity than big bits. Just because I can see better than the average human does not cost me a lot of humanity even if it is with electro-eyes, having wired reflexes level 3 makes me more than a bit different. :)

Dwight

02-12-2009, 06:17 PM

I still think you need to provide "slots" little bits cost less humanity than big bits.
As soon as you go Emotional Attribute you are working in integers. One through nine, no maybes, no supposes, no fractions. You can't travel in space, you can't go out into space, you know, without, like, you know, with fractions - what are you going to land on - one-quarter, three-eighths?

When there was first talk of EA in this thread I was mulling over pricing in the currency of advancement tests. That's part of the CRAZY I saw! :)

Also remember you've got Corruption too. Corruption 5 and Cyber 5, before advancing tests, is ten items. Mr. Headstuff's count is well past starting character range but he'd still fit into mid-range after adjusting for some of his overlap and really superfluous items. Implanting the deck is going back to being a real luxury (or if you are looking to goose up your Cyber or Corruption). Gloss over the Datalock I imagine. Skillwires are going to be a completely different bird, probably just nix it? Plug and swap Skillsofts would drive BW around the bend. :)

Could Finger Compartment be a 1-2 pnt Cosmetic Trait (no Cyber/Corruption impact), if he had implant hands? Hrmm. Or it could be a Side Effect of an Implant.

Anyway Mr. Headstuff is by far the most extreme example of the bunch. You are going to need broad strokes to cross them over. Don't expect characters, especially starting characters, to match the same detailed feature-for-feature list the SR counterpart. You hit the high points, the key ones that define the character.

In the same way that Burning THAC0 characters aren't D&D characters.

Your "semi-sammie" would be a journeyman sammie with Cyber 5/Corruption 2 (6 Implants, and he's advanced on of the attributes one step). Dropped from the Implant list are the Commlink and the Flare Comp. He probably has had 2-3 implants since starting as a 5 LP character. I see him as having 15-18 Skills with 4-5 in the 5+ Range.

Tobias

02-13-2009, 03:04 AM

Holy crap you guys are moving fast. Can't even read it all now. I'd just suggest giving players lotsa MonBu like trait burning = cyber burning powers.

As as to whole integers: peer review. just slap a trait together that offers enough bonus for it be worth 1 cyber in the new game, and don't care about old essence cost. This will also allow you to 'set' you color (cyber, bio, nano, 2020-2070).

Edit: ok, reading in more detail I'm mostly with Dwight on all these points. I don't exactly get his use of Corruption: it seems like headache bookkeeping to have 2 cyber-related EA's: AFAIC, Cyber (or Invasion, I like that name) is for implants, Corruption has to do with magic.

I've written up some LPs, now I'm where Dwight was doing some crunch think earlier: making combat and runs like the cover of SR1 make sense. The on-site decker is no problem: just up security measures against remote decking and he needs to be on site. He's heavy cyber with an emphasis on decking, but due to his cyber he's not useless in the gunfight. The sammy's obviously useful and the mage is required because everything of value will have (basic, generic) magical Hardening anyway.

Seems like it's the minimum team size, btw, 3. I like the decker also helping the group maneuver through whatever area they're travelling. Decker + Mage is the real minimum, I guess, but they'd be hosed by fighty opposition easily.

John

02-13-2009, 08:05 AM

Also remember you've got Corruption too. Corruption 5 and Cyber 5, before advancing tests, is ten items.Mr. Headstuff's count is well past starting character range but he'd still fit into mid-range after adjusting for some of his overlap and really superfluous items. Implanting the deck is going back to being a real luxury (or if you are looking to goose up your Cyber or Corruption). Gloss over the Datalock I imagine. Skillwires are going to be a completely different bird, probably just nix it? Plug and swap Skillsofts would drive BW around the bend. :)

Could Finger Compartment be a 1-2 pnt Cosmetic Trait (no Cyber/Corruption impact), if he had implant hands? Hrmm. Or it could be a Side Effect of an Implant.

Ok couple of things, I have now printed out the thread to make my understanding clearer!

1st question I have gone back to posting 12th Feb 14:35 from dwight.

I am missing something on how you want to work corruption and cyber I had originally thought that one was for mages (corruption) and one for chrome-monkeys (cyber). Now rereading I see you allow both to be drafted for substitution of the meatTM.

As the system allows for a clear growth part now we seem to have gotten past one of SR's problems.

On the guys I posted - those were normal starting Shadowrun chars, now they might not be the archtypes and might be a bit funky but defo no twinky or Fightor chars.

What I was trying to say with Mr Headstuff did not come across but I was really tired when I posted that.

His wares were:
Cyberwares

Group A
*Commlink (3/3)
**Datajack
**Data Lock (Encryption 4)
Group B
*Cyberears (Rating 2)
**Ultrasound Sensor
Group C[/U
*+ Secondary Voice Pattern (Rating 4)
[U]Group D
*Cybereyes Basic System (Rating 3)
**Eye Recording Unit
**Image Link
Group E
Smartlink
Group F
Skillwires (Rating 3)

?? Fingertip Compartment -- cosmetic ??

When I talk about groups what I want to try and say is something like the below in groups:

you can get a commlink and it gives you a cyber point (no fractions).
you then add a datajack to it - no extra cyber point its just a little subfunction of the device
you then add a datalock, maybe per firmware upgrade - again no extra cyberpoint.

Now I will try and find time to read to MonBu on what Tobias said but that will not be til after work...

Dwight

02-13-2009, 09:04 AM

you can get a commlink and it gives you a cyber point (no fractions).
you then add a datajack to it - no extra cyber point its just a little subfunction of the device you then add a datalock, maybe per firmware upgrade - again no extra cyberpoint.
Consequence of that design choice; When the player starts adding extra things it gets much easier to tap the Cyber dice and you get a ton of function without pushing the Cyber/Corruption envelope. This is bad. Very bad.

-- -- -- -- --

Side Effect is some minor boon/bane. Cosmetic Trait is like a Character Trait but in physical presense and non-standard human physiology. For example Fur is a Cosmetic Trait, as is Arachnid Body Form. Raw appearance Cyberware legs could be "Shiny Metal Butt". :)

-- -- -- -- --

For now I consider 'Corruption' a placeholder EA. I'm not sure it is exactly as written in of the MagBu. Although that would seem to fit with Toxic Shamans, for example. It is the consequence of mixing tech and magic. Pushing to hard one against the other.

But in any event; When you implant you either do it 'clean' or 'dirty cheat'. If you do it all 'clean' there won't be much room but you impair you Awakened talents. Going 'dirty cheat' will not directly impair your Awakened abilities. However it brings it's own baggage AND you don't get any Cyber dice to tap. So all you'll ever get out of the Implant is the basic function (another reason why it's important not to expand that without gaining Cyber or Corruption).

Now, if you are crazy enough to do it ;) you can even tap the Corruption to help with an Awakened Test, or any other Test. But I get the impression that leaning your character on Corruption is a really dangerous. Like push it and your character doesn't make it past the 1st session. *shrug*

P.S. BW doesn't have Physical Adepts. That's a hole for now. I don't want it as a "me too" of Cyber either. So I'm just leaving it be.

EDIT: Out for the day, likely for the weekend. Take care and see everyone on Monday.

Dwight

02-13-2009, 09:12 AM

Seems like it's the minimum team size, btw, 3. I like the decker also helping the group maneuver through whatever area they're travelling. Decker + Mage is the real minimum, I guess, but they'd be hosed by fighty opposition easily.
Post. Makes some characters. But I already challenge the conception that you have to have 3 characters....because if true we'd have somehow managed to broke BW at a very fundamental level. ;) Then it's back to the drawing board.

P.S. That said I think combat will work much better with more rather than less. It's somewhat more co-operative in nature than Fight!

John

02-13-2009, 12:39 PM

Consequence of that design choice; When the player starts adding extra things it gets much easier to tap the Cyber dice and you get a ton of function without pushing the Cyber/Corruption envelope. This is bad. Very bad.

hmm we do talk past each other sometimes I think. I disagree with you there. If I had said:

* cyberlimb
** shotgun into cyberlimb
** magnetic hand
** cyberdeck

all without additional burden I would agree with you totally.

what I thought is the following, minor no dice effects:
*Commlink (3/3)
**Datajack -- only allows for wired connection into commlink system, no dice just enable cable in...
**Data Lock (Encryption 4) -- just encrypts contents, specific detailed effect not additional to anything else

this could lead to requiring an accountancy masters....

thinking about it I think it harks to me having grown in the pre-commlink phase -- you early mentioned that a commlink was a bit of outlyer. What I think I see is that your design choice makes it similar to get big big mods rather than just a bit of tinkering. Maybe my earlier examples were about specific head-ware that nobody but me uses anyway.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

so staying with cyber & corruption for the moment, I am just trying to make sure I got this straight:

my level in cyber is the power I can draw from my enhancements, they do need to be applicable

==> dwight posted about flipping the Americar over. as he posted there he calls upon his cyber for 3D (from his arm and leg which are applicable) as he is assuming he has B3 cyber.
ok straight foward.

dwight also mentions in post 33 (http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/showpost.php?p=70769&postcount=33) that tapping cyber gives a test, now the thing I am unclear about what does this test do?

does it advance your cyber (potential)? every time you give in to the machine your (maximum) cyber increases like Greed? and then by having a higher cyber you can have more implants?

that is the way I currently understand it.

so how does the corruption play into this? can I tap corruption as well or is just a cybermantic place to store more boons that I might not be able to turn into dice as I am limited by my cyber to the dice I can draw?

more pondering going on and possibly post editing likely

Tobias

02-14-2009, 04:48 AM

Ok, dwight's vision on corruption makes a bit more sense to me now. Question though: is there a 'pure cyber', 'corruption' and 'pure magic' EA, or does corruption do double duty?

I think I'd keep it a bit simpler, in preference. we have 'cyber' and we have 'mage EA'. Their sum cannot be higher than 10. If you have Cyber 5 and 'Mage EA' 5, if your cyber goes up, your mage EA goes down to 4 - AND WILL NEVER GET HIGHER (because we don't want people to escape from the path to destruction at EA 10 by just upping the other one). Likewise, if you choose magic over cyber, that's it, your on a road of no cyber.

Incidentally, I love this, because it allow an easy explantion of the highly cool burned-out mage from SR1.

As to the 'minimum group is 3 (or 2)' - that's just something that seems practical to me in most shadowruns as they normally would go down. Not something game-system enforced, and 1-on-1 play should still be as possible. I do agree that the Fight system should feel more cooperative than traditional Fight! I've been pondering how covering fire should work, for instance, because if you can get your katana-wielding sammy in between the gun mooks, that would basically spell their end.

Hmmm... BW doesn't really do mook/minion rules, does it? (Actually: you could preface the 'boring' part of a fight with a bloody versus. At the end of the bloody versus 'round' all the mooks are dead, guaranteed, and the real interesting fighting can begin). I'm thinking it shouldn't either, perhaps we can borrow a page from things like that MG inspired North Tower battle instead.

It's interesting, I feel like a shadowrun shootout with all mixed elements (magic, guns, rigging, katana's) resolves more like that north tower example than actual Fight. Perhaps you'd only break out traditional fight for what it's normally used for: melee weapons (and perhaps pistols, if you're really into the Way of the Gun. :) ).

As to the cyberware: why not call the cyberarm a (massive) trait with a 3 Cyber EA impact, and the commlink a somewhat smaller trait with Cyber 1 effect?

Adding Cyber to your arm / head when you've already got it can just be done with trait vote. You'll either get traits that don't impact your Cyber, or do, all according to the appropriate balance of you playgroup.

Dwight

02-15-2009, 09:59 PM

and then by having a higher cyber you can have more implants?
No. Adding implants leads to higher Cyber, not the reverse. You can always go under the knife and get more...until it kills you on the operating table, drives you insane, or leaves you a soulless machine.

@Tobias

No 3rd EA for magic. Unless you want to bring Kispu into your game as an option, where upon it should replace Corruption. Corruption isn't really magic proper. You don't need it for magic, using magic need not lead to having Corruption, and Corruption is available (as per normal) for non-sorcerous uses. There is no 'pure magic' at all, except I suppose if you count not opening your Cyber Attribute at all (thus avoiding the Obstacle to all Sorcerous Skills that comes with it).

No Fight!, won't be compatible. No Shades, at all. Leave the Character Burner on the shelf unless you want to dig into the Traits for your own character, results not guaranteed. I'm to the point "you can use most of the BW Rim with this but you'll have to do adaptions with anything that deals with damage" and "you can use this for the 6th World, if you want to".

-- -- --

Anyway, anyone that has at least one other person to try out the combat with and report back info can send me a PM. I expect to have Phase 1, with a pre-fab scenario to run with, by next weekend.

Tobias

02-16-2009, 01:15 AM

I'll test it too.

Ok, 2 EA's, we're close enough.

I've slapped up some half-chars which I'm trying to take through R&C. Some results are that Grey indeed disappears: dragons or suchlike are just going to be farther out on the black. What's your view on the result of a dragon eating an assault cannon round?

R&C should work without too much adaptation, I'm thinking. It'll be lethal and require some team effort rules, but no need to reinvent the wheel.

Dwight

02-16-2009, 01:57 AM

Drago-who-huh? Oh those. :rolleyes: Well obviously they are vehicles (http://images.elfwood.com/art/j/e/jesspeff/dragonrider.jpg). Vehicle armour is accounted for. But on principle I will not be mentioning nor stating out a dragon. ;) If you want one I suggest you save time and write this down on a piece of paper:

Dragon

Abilities: Anything(never fails)
Beliefs: i iz reet
Instinct: Anytime the player/character thinks of something I already thought of that 3 years ago and have a plan in place, just need to throw the switch or push the button and I am saved from it.

:p

R&C is also gone bye-bye. EDIT: Bloody Versus is gone too though it'll probably get a replacement, eventually.

John

02-16-2009, 06:25 AM

No. Adding implants leads to higher Cyber, not the reverse. You can always go under the knife and get more...until it kills you on the operating table, drives you insane, or leaves you a soulless machine.

Well that is what I thought originally, because that is what makes sense.

Its a choice and not an "EA" and I guess that the "test" referred to is not important anymore.

Back to the americar tossing example...

How and why does corruption get used? Why would I improve cyber and corruption in parallel if I can only use my cyber attribute value?

Please note I am not trying to be contrary or anything I am just trying to clearly understand what your plan is

Dwight

02-16-2009, 09:47 AM

Why would I improve cyber and corruption in parallel if I can only use my cyber attribute value?
1) it becomes more and more difficult to make your Rejection Test for the surgery
2) the higher you get Cyber the less time you character has left
3) Corruption dice can be tapped at any time, to tap Cyber dice your Intent description must match up with one of the Implants (another reason this must remain narrow, no adding extra cyberware features without taking a point of Cyber/Corruption)

Note that this balance might need a little more tweaking, not sure yet. After all nobody other than me has gone through the process of making an Implant as prescribed. ;) The Rejection Test table was just a rough first wack, getting thoughts out into text. It also might all get tossed. The Implant stuff isn't high priority to me at the moment. It's just a topic that came up here.

Tobias

02-17-2009, 03:26 AM

I've made implants - you just haven't seem them yet. :) Burned up a decker and a street sammy, and half a street mage.

Am now running a R&C with a pistol-packing sammy in a nightclub vs 2 trollish bouncers armed with glue-runs. R&C is working fine and giving a satisfying result (for now).

My motto: keep as much BW RAW. Again: no need to fix what ain't (proven) broken.

John

02-17-2009, 05:39 AM

Tobias

02-17-2009, 05:53 AM

Well, I don't have my stuff with me, but they're fairly straightforward. Off the top of my head:

1. Muscle Augmentation. +1 Str. LP trait (in this case). + 1 Cyber
2. Cyber senses + weapons interface. Allows recording, shields against flashbangs, and gives +1D to Firearms skill. LP Trait. +1 Cyber
3. Battle analyzer + comms. Allows help bonus in combat when team-acting with others that are hooked up. +1D to positioning. LP trait. +1 Cyber
4. Enhanced reflexes. +1 Reflex score. LP Trait. + 2 Cyber
5. Subdermal armor and lacing. 3D armor (+1 on chest as traditional). LP Trait. +2 Cyber.

That's all in the street sammy. Details may differ, but he does have a 7 Cyber score. His only other (non-cyber) trait is Tough, IIRC.

He's not faring to well against the 2 bouncer trolls - they're giving him +1 ob (like in the wiki R&C example) and they're forking their Club-wise (the battlesite) skill to not be totally outdone by him (one on one the sammy would probably toast them). They've managed to hit him Incidentally once with the glue (but the Lock was resisted by the sammy), but both have moved into +2D cover while the sammy has none yet. If he doesn't gain cover soon, the Trolls should win this one (and they're both only at 2 cyber...).

Going to have to to think on the Sammy tapping his Cyber this round - he's going to need it!

Edit: oh, some more on the sammy: he's a 4-LP, Born City, Ganger, Ganger Lt., Street Sammy build. He's got a few 5's (stats, and his firearms skill). The trolls have 3's in everything except Po and Fo, and a Firearms skill of 4.
Edit: Oh, and the subdermal armor may be layered with custom-designed body armor. Regular armor does not stack (no walking tanks), but you can boost the 3D protection with 1 or 2 more D's with some custom gear. Much lighter and inobtrusive than full-armor suits, but you do pay 2 whole cyber for it.

Dwight

02-17-2009, 06:26 AM

My motto: keep as much BW RAW. Again: no need to fix what ain't (proven) broken.
That's why it's gone. R&C is gone. EDIT: Might add a vaguely-similar-though-lighter-and-different analogue, for chases (particularly vehicle/aircraft chases/combat). But using R&C to try out those LPs and Implants is wasting time.

1. Muscle Augmentation. +1 Str. LP trait (in this case). + 1 Cyber
2. Cyber senses + weapons interface. Allows recording, shields against flashbangs, and gives +1D to Firearms skill. LP Trait. +1 Cyber
3. Battle analyzer + comms. Allows help bonus in combat when team-acting with others that are hooked up. +1D to positioning. LP trait. +1 Cyber
4. Enhanced reflexes. +1 Reflex score. LP Trait. + 2 Cyber
5. Subdermal armor and lacing. 3D armor (+1 on chest as traditional). LP Trait. +2 Cyber.
Ummm, WTF? :confused: No, size them to 1 point EDIT: Yes this can mean taking a blender to the cyberware list. That is a Good Thing in my opinion because you have to do that anyway just to get up to 1 pnt. This isn't a literal translation anyway so trying to stay item by item literal at the implant level is going to cause clashes.

Oh, and stay clear of armour for now. You won't be able to do combat equipment, its all restated. Everything about armour has drastically changed.

EDIT: No more positioning, and to preempt another one of those the PTGS Wheel is gone too. Wound categories, Superficial through Mortal, are still the same though and do the same thing. Healing them might get tweaks, to represent technology, but by themselves they are the same.

EDIT2: Until later in the week it's probably best you don't bother with combat orientated implants at all. Try think about the types of implants that society would have as a whole, in day-to-day lives. Besides Mr. Stud (http://hem.passagen.se/ookami2/cyber2020/static/sotl-cyberware.html). :) That's what makes LP webs come alive, they are about society, not about some "adventure" niche there-of.

Tobias

02-17-2009, 08:54 AM

I think we've got some wires crossed, Dwight. You're doing what you can to generate Burning Shadows: but so am I! My take on it may not be yours. I'm basically building an alternate setting, and only where BW really breaks (in my opinion) will something need to be replaced.

So, like you, I think grey and whitescale should disappear. Armor is definitely still useful: re-coloring is definitely needed, and 'VA2' may not mean (color) what it used to, but the mechanics still work. The thing is whether the implied color in the original BW mechanics can also succesfully imply the required Burning Shadows color - and I think it can. Or at least, until now it can: I haven't had Trolls firing Assault Cannons at Vehicles yet. :)

Due to the above, the +2 Cyber is, IMHO, actually quite valid: 3D of (relatively) inobtrusive armor is quite valuable!

And I'll still quite enjoy testing out whatever you've made. My own efforts don't block (nor deny) yours. I'll create a new thread, even, if you like.

Dwight

02-17-2009, 09:04 AM

...and only where BW really breaks (in my opinion) will something need to be replaced.
This is the part you don't understand. Fight! breaks, "million pieces" level of break. It's world view is for a completely different technology and type of setting. Mechanics define how we view the game world, system is setting.

To fix Fight! [adequately] you have to fundementally alter combat. In the process R&C becomes collateral damage (EDIT:not that it didn't have problems anyway), superceded by the replacement for Fight!. I've been working on this a while now, long before this thread. This is the small, keep-what-you-can version. EDIT: Yes, I've been pushing very hard to contain the changes.

Dwight

02-17-2009, 09:13 AM

And I'll still quite enjoy testing out whatever you've made.
Did you find someone, at least one other person?

Tobias

02-17-2009, 09:23 AM

1. Other person: nope. Still read it and play it against myself (or a RNG tool)
2. I fully accept your efforts to contain the edits. Of the million pieces of Fight! breakage (which I haven't tried to port yet), which are the most shattering? (So I can ponder them).

Dwight

02-17-2009, 09:31 AM

2. I fully accept your efforts to contain the edits.
Your comments tell me otherwise. ;) EDIT: Not about your effort to do so, just the level of success....unless you mean now you do?

Of the million pieces of Fight! breakage (which I haven't tried to port yet), which are the most shattering? (So I can ponder them).
Most obviously the firearms. But try it out. For things to ponder on think about what combat really means to a 'runner, it's purpose. What the environment is like and how that impacts things. What matters in our society, how we live and how is our environment differs from Renaissance and prior. Those should also help you also understand the problems with R&C as well as one of the reasons why Firefight! isn't appropriate.

EDIT: I also linked to those two grannies up thread. That's part of it.

EDIT2: Here's more of it. (http://www.bulletproofme.com/Body_Armor_Accessories_Rifle_Protection.shtml) Hint: I purposely picked a link to a page that includes price list. ;)

Tobias

02-17-2009, 09:47 AM

Ok, I'll see what happens when I allow the sammy to use his SMG in Fight. Something will have to be done about acquire/(aim)/fire, probably, but we'll see where the chips fall.

Your comments about our society and goals for combat are something I've been trying to keep in touch with myself - I've been taking it as a part of 'mechanics creating appropriate color'. I imagine importing the firearms into fight (as well as R&C, but that aside) would be bloody screaming lethal. That obviously has consequences. Or are you talking Steel?

However, on (re-)examining how lethal 'original BW' R&C is, I was surprised. That B13 Crossbow bolt ain't no joke (and it shouldn't be, of course).

Dwight

02-17-2009, 09:54 AM

I imagine importing the firearms into fight (as well as R&C, but that aside) would be bloody screaming lethal.
Yes. (http://burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?t=6900)

Dwight

02-17-2009, 10:12 AM

That B13 Crossbow bolt ain't no joke
The new item in that role is an RPG-7. Everyone downrange is crapping their pants when it's being aimed. But if they are still standing after it's single shot gets off they get to laugh till the RPG gets reloaded.

Tobias

02-18-2009, 01:31 AM

Ok, I'll bite.

Why is everyone (else) so 'worried' about guns in Fight! ?

Say we have a Ref 5(+) sammy vs. his identical twin, in Fight! He's got a Ares Hi-Power (say, B12), his twin has a monofilament katana (since that's the obvious melee weapon of choice). The Katana is Fast.

What's so bad about the pistol?

Dwight

02-18-2009, 09:57 AM

Derth of Reload? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og9ccsb1v6o)

EDIT: Are you are suggesting giving the monofilament katana some crazy Power & VA is a viable way of saying everything is OK again? Because no, it isn't.

Tobias

02-19-2009, 04:05 AM

That video is not Fight! It's not even R&C.

My experience with both RL MA and gunplay is limited. Even then, I'm assuming that demo video's of speed-gunning (while fun, and wasting me some YouTube time) are nothing like actual combat. Presumably, the SR system as written also does not allow that kinda shenanigan - we want a bit of heroic movie-like quality as well, or do we want to sim ultradealth? (Given your earlier answers, no, you don't want ultradeath.) Your combat system may r0xx0r - that'd be really cool - but I still want to know why Fight! breaks originally. Overly deadly may be quite a valid reason.

And no, I'm not suggesting giving the monofilament katana crazy power and VA (although it's likely to be a bit better than the old models). I'm saying that getting struck 5 times by the monofilament katana in one exchange is as problematic (or at least on the same order/scale) for the receiver as is getting tapped 5 times by a pistol.

Against a static target, or something not actively combatting back, a vs. test will do. And given the nature of SR reality, the target will most likely be toast.

I'd say: in Fight!, shooting requires an Acquire target action (not standing still, after all), and then a Shoot action. Bursts or other stuff may add some dice or IMS value (or increase the chance of armor damage), but won't allow multiple rolls for multiple hits. If the target's standing and drooling, you can skip the Acquire.

Also, I envision a (pistol) gun having VA 2. The original BW VA's are appropriate to their setting (especially giving the gun-splody bits), but the nature of armor will be different in the SR reality. 5D of SR armor resist different things differently than 5D of chained plate.

Dwight

02-19-2009, 04:55 AM

And no, I'm not suggesting giving the monofilament katana crazy power and VA (although it's likely to be a bit better than the old models). I'm saying that getting struck 5 times by the monofilament katana in one exchange is as problematic (or at least on the same order/scale) for the receiver as is getting tapped 5 times by a pistol.
The video is just a cool visual to remind you. :) You wouldn't want to empty it out that fast in Fight!, you'd waste bullets in opponents that were already corpses.

You don't Block bullets. A loaded ranged weapon keeps their Positioning dice, unlike the "club" that an unloaded one becomes. A ranged weapon can do Superb with a single success over Ob, 1 out of 3 times for moderately better ones (if you've got the UaSS PDF check that out). Also reread what Acquire is.

Anyway, I'm done trying to explain. Believe me. Or don't.

Tobias

02-19-2009, 08:24 AM

But you haven't really explained. You've offered the fact that there are thousands of reasons it should fail, and I feel that it would be troublesome, but I haven't felt the system break yet on me. Since that means I'll be trying to make it work until it breaks too much (the point you're at), my requests for reasons have been to save myself some work.

Which I'll now have to do myself. That's cool, you're under no obligation to me.

You don't block bullets, no, but you Avoid them (or more appropriately, the aiming arm. This ain't the rabbit hole, Neo). Or you Block the arm, if you really like. I don't think a monofilament wire's blocked either, for instance. :)

A loaded weapon has the range advantage, but so does a spear. I wouldn't give it more advantage than that. May have to fiddle with the Long/Longest/Short definitions a bit though.

(In UaSS RAW) A ranged weapon can indeed do a Superb with a single suc over ob 1 in 1/3 cases, true.

I'm not saying I wouldn't need to tweak Fight!, I'm just saying it needn't be thrown overboard completely. Say, for instance, that you lose the DoF when using a firearm in fight, but instead make it have an Add(2), just like a melee weapon (other than a knife).

And Acquire I can re-write as well, as something required before allowing a shot in (new)Fight!

Anyway, while I'm fine with chatting on about this, you do your thing, I'll do mine, and we'll see where we both end up.