Revised Traiting

[luke]

Lifepath traits will act like skills in the lifepaths character burning process.

Paths will give you trait points for your pool. The first trait is required, additional traits are optional and can be bought with points from your pool.

All lifepath traits cost 1 pt. Even if they are available in the standard list, if you can purchase them from one of your lifepaths it's only 1 pt.

So the Apprentice LP would be something like this:
Traits: 2 pts: Wierd, Gifted, Skulking, and Stinky

So Wierd is required, Gifted et omnes are optional. But if I wanted to purchase Gifted, it'd cost 1 trait point from my pool.

-L

[Drozdal]

Fine with me, but all those Barbarians LP's will need a revision :P

[luke]

actually, i designed all those LPs with this new system in mind. The revision should be pretty minor.

-L

[Drozdal]

Ok so all those barbarians will have to choose traits they want than :) - still cool with me.

[Thor]

Ah. That makes a lot of sense. I like it. 8)

[Viper]

I think that's a great idea! Gives a little more leeway in making characters (like, not EVERY pirate is crippled, not EVERY urchin is an addict)

[phredd]

And not every dwarf has gold greed! :: hugs abzu ::

[phredd]

Oh wait, that's a dwarf special trait. :cry:

[luke]

Oh wait, that's a dwarf special trait. :cry:

Oh wait, not every dwarf has Gold Greed! It'll be like Grief. Not every Elf starts with Grief -- though you sure do get it quickly in game.

However, all dwarves will still be compelled to hoard. I'll be working on the specifics in the next few weeks.

-L

[phredd]

Oh wait, that's a dwarf special trait. :cry:

Oh wait, not every dwarf has Gold Greed! It'll be like Grief. Not every Elf starts with Grief -- though you sure do get it quickly in game.

However, all dwarves will still be compelled to hoard. I'll be working on the specifics in the next few weeks.

-L

:cry:

[Thor]

Oh wait, that's a dwarf special trait. :cry:

Oh wait, not every dwarf has Gold Greed! It'll be like Grief. Not every Elf starts with Grief -- though you sure do get it quickly in game.

However, all dwarves will still be compelled to hoard. I'll be working on the specifics in the next few weeks.

-L

:cry:

Someone's not in touch with his inner Gordon Gecko. Greed is good!

[luke]

Site me a Tolkien-based example of Dwarves not succombing or evincing this "stereotype" and I'll rethink my position. From my standpoint, murdering and destroying for the sake of riches, delving "too deep" for the sake of craft, and shutting your doors all the time to maintain your coveted wealth all point to a malignant heritage that players should be forced to deal with in play.

-L

[Thor]

In any case, Greed only rules you as much as you choose to let it rule you. It means that the GM will introduce tempations into the game. But you can always choose to fight those temptations. You never have to give in if you don't want to (but then you won't advance your Greed and you won't be able to use its power).

The only places where that doesn't apply is hoarding and Wonderment. Hoarding has been part of the game all along (although I'm guessing abzu has a few tweaks up his sleeve). As far as Wonderment goes, it just means a Steel test when confronted with something of extraordinary beauty, craftsmanship, or value. And even then you can choose whether to stand and drool (stare at the object of fascination in awe, e.g., Gimli confronted with Galadriel), or try to seize the object any way you can. You always have a choice.

[foxandwarlock]

Awesome idea! (Referring to original post)

[Kublai]

Don't listen to Phredd. He has delusions of Dwarven hippies.

[phredd]

I just think treasure hunting is the most boring thing to do in a game, ever. Yeah, it may be tolkienesque, but it's not fun or interesting.

[Kublai]

Greed covers a far broader spectrum than mere treasure-hunting. Why the antipathy?

[Thor]

Greed covers a far broader spectrum than mere treasure-hunting. Why the antipathy?

Agreed. I actually didn't see any connection to treasure hunting at all. The Gift is a very interesting scenario that has nothing to do with treasure hunting, and yet it is driven by dwarven greed.

[phredd]

Greed covers a far broader spectrum than mere treasure-hunting. Why the antipathy?

Everything about it seems oriented towards making my dwarven characters do things that are out of character for them, towards taking up gaming time futzing with stuff that I'm not interested in spending time or thought on, either as dreary bookkeeping (one reasone I LOVE resources, since that avoids that element) or as 'choices' presented to me as hard choices that are in fact automatic for me and not worth considering, just move along to the consequences please.

[Viper]

Phredd, just replace "gold" with "train games" in your mind, and you will understand how dwarven greed works.

[Yagathai]

This does, however, make the higher-cost traits a little more out of reach. Before "Mister Lee" was hard to get, but a 5-lifepath human could concievably do it. Now, unless it's part of the lifepath, it'll be damn near impossible.

[luke]

This does, however, make the higher-cost traits a little more out of reach. Before "Mister Lee" was hard to get, but a 5-lifepath human could concievably do it. Now, unless it's part of the lifepath, it'll be damn near impossible.

What makes you say that? Have you seen the latest LP chapters? We were having trouble with the characters having too many trait points, did you find differently?

Or are you just invoking the incisor-sharp insight of the Bitter Gravedigger?

-L

[Thor]

As Abzu so non-diplomatically pointed out :P , characters on the new lifepaths seem to wind up with MORE cool traits, not less. Especially with human characters, it is relatively easy to rack up trait points, although you will be severely tempted to get the "most bang for your buck" by taking the traits available for one point on your lifepaths. I know Dro made a character with some really sick traits by only taking the mandatory traits on his lifepaths and saving the rest of his points. I don't remember exactly what he bought, but it was bad enough to convince Luke to reduce the number of trait points available.

Still, I think you'll find that the new system offers a much greater degree of customization than the previous system. There are quite a few die and call-on traits available through the lifepaths now, as opposed to the old system, where you mostly got character traits for free.

Just wait until you burn up your first Augur (village witch) with The Gift, Obscure Aura, AND Touch of Ages.

[luke]

As Abzu so non-diplomatically pointed out :P ,

Am I being a dick again? I didn't mean it. Honest! I was trying to be funny.

::sigh::
::crawls back in hole::

[Thor]

As Abzu so non-diplomatically pointed out :P ,

Am I being a dick again? I didn't mean it. Honest! I was trying to be funny.

::sigh::
::crawls back in hole::

With a name like Abzu... :twisted:

[Yagathai]

Don't worry, Abzu. The beauty of me being the Bitter Grave-Digger is that you can be as mean to me as you want, and it's automatically justified. ;)

And actually, I was operating under the assumption that we'd be using the trait listings from the Character Burner. If you're changing trait points around, that makes sense...

... inasmuch as it's a necessary alteration -- nay, perversion! -- of the system brought on by yet another ill-considered change, no doubt made in a bout of hateful madness from the very person that should know better and that we once trusted. The old trait system wasn't broken. I wish I could say the same for this one. Fie on you, abzu! Fie! Fie! Fie!

[luke]

The old trait system wasn't broken. I wish I could say the same for this one.

Yag, can I make an honest, personal request? When I die and after the funeral's over, could you sneak out to my grave and hack/carve this into my headstone and then fill it with oily paint or tar? It'd make my soul rest easy (and it shouldn't be too hard since you're the one who'll bury me.)

thanks in advance,
your wrongheaded, misguided friend,
-L

[Yagathai]

I do for you.

Incidentally, I'm ordering up a copy of the Monster Burner tomorrow. Will any revisionist horrors greet me upon its arrival?

[luke]

I do for you.

Incidentally, I'm ordering up a copy of the Monster Burner tomorrow. Will any revisionist horrors greet me upon its arrival?

Prepare for the worst.

[Yagathai]

Prepare for the worst.

I cringe already.

[jc_madden]

I just bought the BW and the CB in the combo special over at Key20 (what a smoking deal!) and anxiously await my hard copy of the CB (stupid USPS!). A question for those in the know: When revisions like this happen are we entitled to a new PDF download w/ the new revisions? Is there a method of being notified of any major revisions? Thanks.

[Drozdal]

A question for those in the know: When revisions like this happen are we entitled to a new PDF download w/ the new revisions? Is there a method of being notified of any major revisions? Thanks.
Revision should be finished in late first quater of 2005. As for PDF's with revisions in them i simply do not know, but it's been said that all revised rules will be available in BW Annual, and i know about some free PDF downloads with revised rules (duel of wits for sure) that will be available in january,

[Fourth Horseman]

Site me a Tolkien-based example of Dwarves not succombing or evincing this "stereotype" and I'll rethink my position. From my standpoint

Err, um Gimli? There's that little bit in the books, Fellowship actually, where Galadriel says after the gift of her hair, and I paraphrase, "though gold will flow from the work of your hands, over you it shall have no mastery."

Moreover, in the Fellowship I think there's a bit where Gandalf, talking about Thrain's death explains that most of the Dwarves goldlust was the product of the external influence of the 7 rings of power, i.e. it was not inherent to them but simply warped their natural LOVE for things from underneath the earth.

In the Simarillion there's that bit where the books explain how the Dwarves TAUGHT the elves to make metal armor and weapons. Before that they, the elves, had been beating people over the head with wooden swords. Elegant, and beatiful wooden swords but wooden nontheless. This act of charity could hardly be called the product of some hoplessly greedy species. And that bit about shutting their gates on the Elves? That was done out of fear of the powers of darkness, not to protect their horde from pryng eyes.

Moreover, if we're talking covetousness and just being a selfish prick in general, the distinction of producing the greatest one of all lies not with the Dwarves or even Men, but Elves.

Feanor . . .

Is it just me or does he come off as a complete horse's ass with absolutely no redeaming qualities whatsoever? Say what you will of Thorin ar even the fallen Numenoreans, but their flaws were human and understandable--making them tragic heroes. Feanor on the other hand is the Gordon Gecko of Middle Earth.

So if you are going to stereotype a whole race for the limited actions of a few standouts why not give the elves an inescapable greed trait?

But no, the Elves are purrrrrfect. F*** em'. They simply have better PR, like the USMC. And you and your fake ear wearing buds lap it up every second. I got some cool aid in my fridge when you boys get thirsty . . .

So why don't you just admit it? You are just bigoted against Dwarves.

[Thor]

But no, the Elves are purrrrrfect. F*** em'. They simply have better PR, like the USMC. And you and your fake ear wearing buds lap it up every second. I got some cool aid in my fridge when you boys get thirsty . . .

So why don't you just admit it? You are just bigoted against Dwarves.

Rich, have you read the new Dwarf chapter yet? Dwarves are the coolest freakin' race in the book now! Also, Luke has included the Virtuous trait for players that want their Dwarves to start with a lower Greed.

Anyway, Gimli showed his Greed (as mechanically modeled in the game anyway) several times. When he met Galadriel was one of those times! He was enthralled by her beauty. THAT is the result of a failed Greed test.

[Fourth Horseman]

[quote=Fourth Horseman]Anyway, Gimli showed his Greed (as mechanically modeled in the game anyway) several times. When he met Galadriel was one of those times! He was enthralled by her beauty. THAT is the result of a failed Greed test.

:shock: :( :evil: :twisted:

OK if you were trying to make me mad you just suceeded. There is a dead worker lying by my feet because I just had the uncontrollable urge to twist something's head off. And now I have to write this with blood getting all over the keyboard.

But I digress.

ARE YOU F****** kidding me. Counts to ten. Everyone, and I mean everyone, was ethralled by Galadriel's beauty--think Helen of Troy, Aphrodite, and Kate Blanchett rolled up into one and you're near the mark. Everyone who met her that day on the flet had his mouth drop to the floor like some slackjawed yokel when they met her. Everybody was pitching tents that day. Did they all fail greed tests?

Now remember this, Galadriel offers Gimli, anything, anything from Lothlorien and what does he ask for . . . a single hair off her head. This is something a dirty hippie asks for not some goldlusting dwarf. And what is Gimli going to do with the three hairs she gave him? Is he going to lock himself in some cave stroaking those hairs in solitary confinement scaring off all comers by babbling, "the way of the future" repeatedly? No, he promises to lock them in imperishable crystal and PASS THEM DOWN as a family heirloom to his kinsmen.

Two other points, Gimli offers to bring a troop of dwarves to redo the glittering caves of Helms Deep, to better show off their beauty. And he offers to repair the gates of Minas Tirith and the city streets after the war. Nowehere in there do I ever hear of a payment demanded or given. And he later does these things out of loyalty to friends not on some required "treasure hunting" tangent to satisfy his gold greed. Indeed, these actions are the antethesis of gold greed.

Do not make me go home and search through the books for more quotes and examples to bolster my case that Tolkienesque dwarves are not inherently covetous individuals. That indeed, they are loyal and GENEROUS, if anything it is their PRIDE which is their flaw, not any Greed. There is a distinction there.

I would venture to say that all our Dwarven sterotypes come mostly from D&D. Which has been rotting gamers brains for generations now. Let go.

Now I realize that if Luke let go of his D&D hangups and was true to Tolkien's vision of dwarves he'd have to rewrite the Dwarf section. And farbeit for me to delay the release of BW 2.0 even further.

Besides, I like Luke's dwarves they are special and certainly better then most iterations out there. Just don't call them Tolkienesque Dwarves and I will be happy and can stop flying into homicidal rages. Indeed, I would say Luke's Dwarves are to Tolkien's Naugrim as Kendar are to Hobbits. Close but a bit of a caricature and sometimes annoying. Why don't we just call them Kendwarves?

[luke]

If we're going to start bitching about source material: apparently ol' Mithrandir was pulling one over on you. The Dwarves who built the Nauglimir (the necklace for the silmarils) murdered the entire population of Menegroth long before Sauron appeared with his Rings of Power.

That incident alone is enough to give them an Emotional Attribute.

Gimli is the case of a Dwarven character (if he was a PC) who has overcome his Greed. It is completely mechanically impossible in the game.

And Rich, you never played DnD. How would you know their Dwarven stereotypes? You were, and still are, a MERP/Rolemaster player.

Have you read the new Dwarf chapter? Please don't insult my hard work without at least having read it.

-L

[Thor]

ARE YOU F****** kidding me. Counts to ten. Everyone, and I mean everyone, was ethralled by Galadriel's beauty--think Helen of Troy, Aphrodite, and Kate Blanchett rolled up into one and you're near the mark. Everyone who met her that day on the flet had his mouth drop to the floor like some slackjawed yokel when they met her. Everybody was pitching tents that day. Did they all fail greed tests?

Whoah there! Deep breaths Rich. A failed Greed test doesn't always mean that a dwarf will do anything to acquire the object of his Greed. You may always choose the "She's Magnificent..." option when you succumb to Greed. It's a form of Wonderment that causes you to Hesitate. You know...stare in awe at an elf queen, weep at the beauty of crystal-decked caverns, etc.

Greed is not the same as the Gold Greed that dwarves had in Burning Wheel Classic TM.

[jc_madden]

If anything I would say that as they are written in the current rules the dwarves of BW most closely parallel the dwarves of Norse mythology more than anything (see Ring of the Nibelung). Now to say that Tolkien's dwarves are based loosely on those is true, however I have to agree that all in all Dwarves as a race display no more tendency towards Greed (as it is portraid as a mechanic) than say your average elf or human. For every example you can cite where a Dwarf murdered for greed I can cite an equal example where Man, Hobbit, and Elf did the same. The biggest sources of dwarven greed in Tolkien are when directly relating to the One Ring and it's power effects all not just dwarves.

[Kaare Berg]

Dude, JC . . .
Ring of Nibelung is a Germanic tale, not Norse.

But you are right though. Norse dwarves are greedy little buggers who'd do anything for Gold. Of the top of my head the Fenris-wolf escaped because of a greedy dwarf making a weak link in its chain.

As for Tolkien, hell Luke is right. Gimli was a paragon of dwarven nobility compared to Thorin, who would not share and fought two armies with seven kins-men so he would not have to.

Oh for another example of Norse Dwarves see here (http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6365#6365)

[jc_madden]

Dude the Nibelung is a german retelling of a Norse Saga.

[luke]

i'd like to thank Rich for starting a Tolkien-Dwarf flame war in the Revised Trait thread.

Kaare, you're right. My Dwarves bring out the Norse more than Tolkien. Even more so in the new version. There they are almost a 50/50 split between Tolkien and source mythology.

anyway, can we either start a new thread bitching about what a shitty game designer I am or get back on topic in this one?

-L

[Kublai]

If only there were mods for these forums!

[Kaare Berg]

Tried the lifepath trait thing mentioned about five pages hence in the creation of the character to replace Liam in my Miranna campaign. Mixed success, however my player really really liked it.
Except I said you have to choose one, and gave him no extra points.

Guess I have to go back and double check this character before play Saturday.

Oh and the new PC is a dwarf. With greed.
And grey will.

oh woe.


can we either start a new thread bitching about what a shitty game designer And those who are loyale obliged. (http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=843)

[Fourth Horseman]

Have you read the new Dwarf chapter? Please don't insult my hard work without at least having read it.

Hmm. Hit a nerve did I? If you are expecting an apology for my presumption to dare to speak in your munificient presence . . . then I would suggest you . . . get bent. And because this system wouldn't allow me to post my much more polite response and I have to write this all over again, this one will be a bit more . . . strident. Don't worry I will only endeavour to match the contempt you displayed for my argument in your response and not exceed it. Now, the reason the madness entered my head to even dare to speak about the perfection that is the dwarves of burning wheel was because you wrote this:


Site me a Tolkien-based example of Dwarves not succombing or evincing this "stereotype" and I'll rethink my position. From my standpoint, murdering and destroying for the sake of riches, delving "too deep" for the sake of craft, and shutting your doors all the time to maintain your coveted wealth all point to a malignant heritage that players should be forced to deal with in play.

Now, my eyesight is pretty bad, but no where in there did I see the following fine print:

1. This is NOT a bald faced challenge for people to come up with examples.

2. Please ignore the language, "SITE ME A TOLKIEN BASED EXAMPLE" [emphasis mine]

3. Only peons who have read, memorized, and delved the philosophy underpinning Burning Wheel need apply.

4. All responses will agree with me and kiss my ass.

So please forgive this ignoramus for having the temerity to actually address your post, with examples and an argument on how it was unfair to stereotype Dwarves in this, the manner you described them, in your orginal challenge. Now, instead of addressing my core arguments you come up with one example and then spend the latter part of your message describing how I am absolutely not qualified to have a conversation on the subject. Nice Ivy League debate trick. But may I ask, who is really insulting who? And, would you actually like to drop the the petty f****** pretense and actually have a discussion?

Now back to the argument. My core argument, and at least one person here shares this view, is that Tolkien based Dwarves are no more or less greedy then elves or men. That a propaganda machine has been built up over the years that has reinforced stereotypes that really have little basis in the literature. You cited me that one example of the dwarves being covetous bastards. I can go through the books page for page pull out examples for all three races and come up with an equal amount of examples. To be certain of course what we should do is tally examples of greed from all three races and run a statistical analysis. But anyone with common sense, and a thicker skin, would realize that this was unnecesary.

Yet still, some of your supporters cite the example of Thorin as the paragon of Dwarven greed. I beg to differ. All of the armies, save the eagles, that fought at the foot of the lonely mountain fought for smaug's horde. Maybe my copy of the hobbit is a little old, but no where in there did I see the explanation that Thranduil was only trying to get his meathooks into the horde to fund the united elven college fund, or that the men of the lake just needed the gold to build an orphanage. This is a prime example of where all the races were behaving badly, and only driven to support each other by a greater external threat--the orcs.

Indeed, the people with the greatest claim to that horde were the ones it was originally stolen from--the Dwarves. I think this is a perfect illustration of how Dwarven greed is really dwarven pride. The vast majority of instances of Dwarves going apeshit over money revolve around them reclaiming something that has been taken from them. Thorin at the lonely mountain RECLAIMING HIS THRONE, Thorin and the rest of the Dwarves again fighting off Azog's orcs for Moria, Balin leading a band of Dwarves again to reclaim Moria.

Now if Thorin were driven by such a "malignant heritage" would he have given, GIVEN a mithril hauberk to Bilbo Baggins. I would hope that all of the gold hording covetous NPCs my PCs ever ran into were so greedy. Gimli is not some exception that proves the rule, he IS the rule.

But back to my core question, where I ask you is the greed trait for men or elves, where? And what is it that distinguishes them so much from Dwarves? In my mind, if we are talking primarily Tolkien based Dwarves, and that is the orginal criteria YOU laid out without any reference to the Niebulungen, there is no difference.

[luke]

Hmm. Hit a nerve did I? If you are expecting an apology for my presumption to dare to speak in your munificient presence . . . then I would suggest you . . . get bent. And because this system wouldn't allow me to post my much more polite response and I have to write this all over again, this one will be a bit more . . . strident. Don't worry I will only endeavour to match the contempt you displayed for my argument in your response and not exceed it. Now, the reason the madness entered my head to even dare to speak about the perfection that is the dwarves of burning wheel was because you wrote this:

And you know, resorting to chortles and threats of physical violence and name calling is taking it back to the school yard. Intimidation and bluster. Mm, love it. Is that how debates ran at NYU? Shall we take it back to the sandbox?

Because all I hear is you saying, "My examples are right, and yours are worthless." You sure as hell aren't reading what's being written.

And you still haven't read my material. What's presented here is a fucking forum post -- it's a sketch of a rough draft. A barely formed idea. I know you like to blow hard and show everyone how keen your memory is, but I'm certain -- CERTAIN -- you would never criticize art without undertaking to digest it first.

While I appreciate your noble defense of the Dwarven character, I'm going to stick by my guns. My Dwarves are an accurate depiction/representation of those found in Tolkien's works. I agree, I overstated my case when I said there were no examples of them acting nobly or overcoming their greed in Tolkien's works. But those munificent acts make the tragedy of their condition all the more poignant.

In addition, I've emphasized the Dwarven nature a bit more. Colored it a deeper hue, based on my readings of TOLKIEN'S SOURCE MATERIAL. The Norse myths, from which he shaped his own Dwarves, depict greed as the prime motivator for those people. It is so prominent it makes the Dwarven characters charicatures, rather than characteres. Tolkien downplayed it, fleshed out their culture and gave them character. But it still a driving force in their souls.

In Burning Wheel, characters are free to act in accordance to the wishes of their players -- being as greedy or noble as they desire. But each culture produces certain values, and mythic nature emphasizes these in order to prove a point. The Greed mechanics emphasize the mythic nature of the Dwarves -- present in both the Norse myths and Tolkien's works.

Thorin and company and Gimli all exhibit the qualities of Greed in their exploits. Thorin risks life and limb and all reason to recover his heritage. Does he call on the Dwarven army beforehand to come to his aid? NO! Because he absolutely does not want to have to share what he thinks is rightfully his.

Gimli obsesses over Galadriel in a way that NONE of the other characters do. Oh, for a lock of her hair. If Gimli were a PC -- WHICH HE IS NOT -- that would be a very acceptable expression of a failed Greed test.

Nothing in the Greed rules dictate that the Dwarf must be an unkind miser -- just like the source material, they may be noble and proud but beneath it all, a small, consuming fire burns. Sometimes that fire flares up and drives them to mad acts, sometimes it dies down and shows the true luster of their character.

-L

[Fourth Horseman]

Actually Luke I have read everything here and have tried providing examples and argument about the distinction I'm trying to draw here. I know you have an enormously thin skin whenever it comes to anybody even daring to criticize your work in a manner that doesn't comport with your preconcieved notions, but the rest of us mortals are entitled to our arguments.

As usual, you take offense where none should be taken and blow it up into a colosal mountain over a mole hill. Just as I really didn't kill a coworker over Thor's comment about Gimli and Galadriel I wasn't threatening anyone in real life. I had figured you were a sophisticated grown up who could discern sarcasm and joking from real threats. I was wrong, for now on I will confine my posts to straight comment devoid of any metaphor, joking, or bad language. Although I find it a bit rich that you are calling me to task on namecalling when you have one of the biggest pottymouths of em' all. And I will also refrain from offering any comment on any mechanics, rules, or game design as it will inevitably lead to some offense on your part and a tedious online screaming match. Which means I probably wont be posting much material to this forum anymore. What a shame it was a nice 4 week run.

BTW I am STILL waiting for you to offer an explanation on why Dwarves are any DIFFERENT from men and elves. Excellent explanation on why Dwarves should have such a trait in the first place. Nary a word on why the others don't deserve the same--because applying the logic and analysis you do to the Dwarves to the other races we get the same result.

That was my point and if you had cared to pause and think about my argument before flying into a blind, protective rage you would have discerned it.

Happy New Year.

[luke]

Still can't resist a little last word name-calling, huh? Me neither.

Here, let me do my impression of you: "Boohoo, I'm Rich. Someone's arguing with me! He's defending his assertion! Boohoo. I'm going home. Poor me."

Since you asked so politely, I'll return to the point at hand (which, btw, I asked you start another fucking thread about. This thread is utterly useless now.):


Nary a word on why the others don't deserve the same--because applying the logic and analysis you do to the Dwarves to the other races we get the same result.

No, Rich, we don't. Elves, Men and Orcs are capable of being petty, jealous and greedy. But it is not the abiding force in them. Gimli covets Galadriel's hair and moans about it for the rest of the trilogy. Legolas shrugs his shoulders, "She's hot. What do you want?" And that's it.

Bilbo, in his way, is frightened and uncomprehending of Thorin's obsession. He doesn't give a wit for all the treasure. (The One Ring notwithstanding, of course.)

The men of Laketown? I think Bard and company are acting on different motives than greed. Revenge seems more appropriate. That asshole Thorin did get their town burned to ash. Hell, I'd want to field an army and kick his ass.

Thranduil? I think Mr Tolkien makes it abundantly clear that Thranduil isn't the nicest guy around. He appears pretty petty in the story and capable of mounting actions based on grudge and prejudice alone.

The Orcs? I think their Hatred -- as discussed in the download available on this site -- acts as a prime motivator. It's not like the Orcs want the gold so they can buy pretty things with or build beautiful palaces. They are going to kill and capture everyone in their way, shit on the gold then make the captives eat it. Possession and ownership aren't what their after. They just want to ruin everyone's fun.

Now that we've parsed this material in terms that don't belong to it at all... I hope my reasoning is a bit more clear. Burning Wheel's four main races are heavily modelled on the archetypes presented in the Silmarilion, the trilogy, the source myths and my own historical research.

Lastly, if you want a freaking discussion and not a screaming match, quit being so accusatory and defensive yourself.
Egads. Take a difficult test to your Netiquette.

-L

A NOTE TO THE FOLKS AT HOME: In case it isn't abundantly clear, Rich and I are best of friends. Normally we argue like this in person, but with more cursing. Rich is a huge influence on and great aid to the development of the game.

Do not attempt this in other forums with other game designers/authors/actors whom you do not know personally. I cannot vouch for the results.

[Fourth Horseman]

There we go with the potty mouth again. Where oh where am I calling you a name in the last post? You see phantom insults were none exist--you really have a problem about people questioning your work. Perhaps some anger management training is in order?

OK that last sentence was a little barb. But I can only take so much vitriol from you without answering.

You seem to take Gimli's gesture of asking for the hair as some sort of obsession. Well you've forced my hand--let's do a textual analysis, my commentary in brackets.

>>And what gift would a Dwarf ask of the Elves?' said Galadriel, turning to Gimli.

None, Lady, answered Gimli. 'It is enough for me to have seen the Lady of the Galadhrim, and to have heard her gentle words.' [clearly the words of an obsessive and naturally avaricious indivicual]

'Hear ye all ye Elves! she cried to those about her. 'Let none say again that Dwarves are grasping and ungracious! [but in your game its a trait that defines the race] Yet surely, Gimli son of Gloin, you desire something that I could give? Name it, I bid you! You shall not be the only guest without a gift.' [he is pushed, forced into naming something]

'There is nothing, Lady Galadriel,' said Gimli, bowing low and stammering. 'Nothing, unless it might be --unless it is permitted to ask, nay, to name a single strand of your hair, which surpasses the gold of the earth as the stars surpass the gems of the mine. [you will of course interprate this metaphor as proof that he can think of nothing else. No, these are simply symbols he a being that lives underground and whose worked the forge all his life can play with comfortably. Just as I'm certain an eskimo would probably draw on the vast store of metaphor he has stored in his head for describing the beauty of the snow to describe the beauty of Galadriel, Gimli slips into a lexicon with which he has familiarity.] I do not ask for such a gift. But you commanded me to name my desire.' [but when pushed he uses the opportunity to (a) yes satisfy a desire, but (b) make a 'beau geste' to make every elf and elf lover who lives by stereotypes about the dwarves eat his words. And (c) he makes a diplomatic gesture out of the gift too to heal the longstanding rift between dwarves and elves as well as we will see later]

The Elves stirred and murmured with astonishment, and Celeborn gazed at the Dwarf in wonder, but the Lady smiled. 'It is said that the skill of the Dwarves is in their hands rather than in their tongues,' she said; 'yet that is not true of Gimli. For none have ever made me a request so bold yet so courteous. [others would call it petty and obsessive] And how shall I refuse, since I commanded him to speak? [she admits she forced his hand] But tell me, what would you do with such a gift?

'Treasure it, Lady,' he answered, 'in memory of your words to me at our first meeting. [we see the core motivation for Gimli, its not an acquisitive instinct that drives this request, but a desire to remember this unprecedented kindness he recieved from the emobidment of elfdom on middle earth and what were those words, that kindness he seeks to remember until the day he dies? "'Do not repent of your welcome to the Dwarf. If our folk had been exiled long and far from lothlorien, who of the Galadhrim, even Celeborn the Wise, would pass nigh and would not wish to look upon their ancient home, though it had become an abode of dragons? Dark is the water of Kheled-zaram, and cold are the springs of Kibilnala, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dum in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone.' And the Dwarf, hearing the names given in his own ancient tongue, looked up and met her eyes; and it seemed to him that he looked suddenly into the heart of an enemy and saw there love and understanding." Mind you now, Gimli had just been treated shoddily by Haldir and chided by Celeborn, two elves who operate from ill-informed stereotype. But Galdriel being the wisest of the wise--and one who resisted the mad greed of Feanor in the first age--understands the motivation of the dwarf, the pride and honor that drives his people, not the greed foisted upon their name by others. And Gimli finding this small kindness of understanding in a place where he expected only hostility decides to match that kindness with his own honor and devotion. But let Gimli speak for himself] 'And if ever I return to the smithies of my home, it shall be set in imperishable crystal to be an heirloom of my house, and a pledge of good will between the Mountain and the Wood until the end of days,'

[A pledge of good will eh, really greedy of the little bugger right? No, this is the brilliant dilpomatic gesture I was talking about]

Then the Lady unbraided one of her long tresses, and cut off three golden hairs, and laid them in Gimli's hand. 'These words shall go with the gift,' she said. 'I do not foretell, for all foretelling is now vain: on the one hand lies darkness, and on the other only hopoe. But if hope should not fail, then I say to you, Gimli son of Gloin that your hands shall flow with gold, and yet over you gold shall have no dominion. [yet others would say that his desire for your hair was just a warped form of the lust you milady said would never have hold of him]<<

As for the differing motivations you lay out for Thorin, Bard, and Thranduil. C'mon man, is the cup half full or half empty? For Thorin his actions do defend a horde he had just helped liberate from a Dragon in his own homeland form a Dragon--remeber Galadriel's words about lothlorien and a dragon?--are proof of driving acquisitivness and lust? Yet for Bard and Thranduil motivations for taking a piece of the horde they too had a hand in liberating, well bard at least, is evidence of a desire for revenge or pride? Methinks you are fitting square pegs in round holes. Perhaps we could agree that all three parties are drawing motivation from all these sources at the same time? And Thranduil taking on the mountain by himself before receiveing aid from his kinsman Dain to defend the mountain--is that Greed or just pigheaded pride at work? I don't know--I cant do a textual analysis on this one since I don't have a copy of the Hobbit in front of me. But even if I am wrong and Thorin has some speech about greed and keeping it all for himself, this is one instance in a life and a whole series of books cataloguing gestures both petty and great from the dwarves.

Now I'm not saying greed is absent from dwarves altogether, or even that the supernatural greed you speek of is completely absent. But that it is really no different in magnitude from the greed of other races and that the worst such gestures we see from dwarves have external sources. The proof I offer this is from Proffesor Tolkien himself in Appendix A. III Durin's Folk, of LOTR:

>>None the less it may well be, as the Dwarves now believe, that Sauron by his arts had discovered who had this Ring, the last to remain free, and that the singular misfortunes of the heirs of Durin were largely due to his malice. For the Dwarves had proved untameable by this means. The only power over them that the Rings wielded was to inflame their hearts with a greed of gold and precious things, so that if they lacked them all other good things seemed profitless, and they were filled with wrath and desire for vengeance on all who deprived them. But they were made from their beginning of a kind to resist most steadfastly any domination. Though they could be slain or broken, they could not be reduced to shadows enslaved to another will; and for the same reason their lives were not affected by any Ring, to live either longer or shorter because of it . All the more did Sauron hate the possessors and desire to dispossess them.<<

So you see Dwarven Greed looks more like a defense mechanism against the sunpernatural influence of the seven rings. If anything it is a sign of strength! That instead of becoming ring wraiths they simply become grumpy old men intent on making lots of money.

Back to the core point, I say that Dwarves are driven by this tragic trait as much as any other race and that it simply should not be a defining trait unless (a) you are willing to apply the same for other races, or (b) give every starting dwarven player a free ring of power to explain their lust.

Your dwarves are the perfect little wagnerian nieberlungen, just don't go calling them Tolkienesque. This whole nondebate started over your challenge to provide concrete examples where Dwarves aren't ruled by this trait. I've provided a catalogue. I think the arguments you have provided in refutation are weak, you no doubt think the opposite. Take these comments or leave them, I'm not posting anymore on this particular thread because I have a feeling you will find a way to 'leave them.' I find it a bit amusing how you dismiss input that you personally request so quickly and with such venom, whether its providing examples on dwarf traits or musing on how many throwing skills there should be. And that last bit wasn't some insult, just an observation--which you are free to take or leave as well.

[luke]

Decided to stay in the sandbox and play with the other kids, eh?


I find it a bit amusing how you dismiss input that you personally request so quickly and with such venom, whether its providing examples on dwarf traits or musing on how many throwing skills there should be. And that last bit wasn't some insult, just an observation--which you are free to take or leave as well.

First, I think what you fail to realize or acknowledge is that the emotional attribute in Burning Wheel is not an anchor chain around the neck of the player. It's an empowering tool. It allows players to tap the nature of their character, embody their nature and hasten their fate.

All players can feel grief, but only Elf characters gain benefit from their Grief attribute. All players can feel hatred, but only Orc characters gain benefit from their Hatred. Dwarves fall into the same model.

It is, in literature, a theme. Themes enhance and focus drama. Evoking elements of the character, bringing them to the forefront and tying them to the story at hand. These emotional attributes do just that, they make better game.

In defense of Greed: I'm going to ignore your Ivy League debate tactics: "I find it a bit amusing how you dismiss input...." Yeah, it's called a counter-argument. Continually failing to discuss and address my points won't win any points here with the judges. Nor will it change my mind. If you're trying to convince of your side -- rather than just prove you're a competent debater -- you might try discussing things with me.

Your citation is interesting, and was unknown to me. But i think it contradicts the actual behavior of the Dwarven characters in the material. Not only are they easily seduced by Sauron -- like all other races -- but they are covetous -- as displayed by Thorin and Gimli -- and they are credited with being SO covetous that they ruin themselves. Moira falls because the Dwarves turn inward, shutting their doors, and, ultimately, because they "dug too deep" in their quest for Mithril. They unleashed the demonic beast upon their own people. Tell me that is not a fucking literary theme for all-consuming acquisitiveness.

And venom? I'm laughing over here. Just like I was laughing about the whole Throwing issue. I hope you're laughing too.

-L

[Kublai]

I so can't read this last page of posts. :oops:

[jc_madden]

I was much occupied all weekend so I caught up a bit on this thread. Forgive me if I quote too much but I want my point’s reference to the original statements.


A NOTE TO THE FOLKS AT HOME: In case it isn't abundantly clear, Rich and I are best of friends. Normally we argue like this in person, but with more cursing. Rich is a huge influence on and great aid to the development of the game.


I figured this out on my own but there were times based on the ferocity of the argument that I doubted my assumptions.

Both abzu and FH make reference to the Norse dwarves, and though while I made the parallel to them as far as greed goes there are several distinct differences between Tokien Dwarves and the Scandinavian myth's. Nordic dwarves turn to stone in sunlight and are horribly misshapen, which sounds more like Tolkien's Trolls. So I think we can agree that Tolkien borrowed concepts but did so in a hodge-podge manner to suit his character driven work.


Bilbo, in his way, is frightened and uncomprehending of Thorin's obsession. He doesn't give a wit for all the treasure. (The One Ring notwithstanding, of course.)

But this of course goes towards defining the Hobbits lack of greed not the dwarves possession of it. In all of Tolkiens works it is evident that Hobbit's lusted for only the simple pleasures of life and so were more resistant to the Ring's powers. This made them the perfect ring bearers. The more powerful a person (and their greed) the more temped they were by it. Of ALL the persons who were affected by the Ring Galadriel and Gandalf were the worst. They dared not touch it for fear of what it would do to them. Man and dwarf both lusted after the ring no more than the other and as pointed out the Dwarf's lust for gold and wealth were responses to the Ring's effect on their people. When Galadriel made the prophecy that gold would not hold power over Gimli it was because she knew that the hand of hope she spoke of was due to the destruction of the one Ring. When the Ring is destroyed its curse is lifted from the dwarves. So while it is logical to assume that Dwarves existing in Middle Earth at the time when the ring existed would possess the supernatural greed as represented in BW, in a setting devoid of the Ring the dwarves would be free of that greed.

Now if you want to arbitrarily bestow the greed on the dwarves without citing reference to Tolkien's work that's your prerogative it's your game after all. Likewise if you wish to base them as you stated earlier more closely on the Norse myths it would stand to reason that they too would poses the draw backs of being turned to stone in sunlight and being horribly disfigured. Again, you take what you like from your source and leave what you don't but you cannot say "My dwarves are Tolkienesque' but not have them revert to their natural state in a world without the ring. Nor can you state that "My dwarves are Nordic" without mantling the aforementioned burdens. Otherwise your dwarves are just your dwarves because you say so. Which of course is fine but that undermines all reference to source material and makes all decisions based on such pure arbitration.

[luke]

JC, you are a brave man for wading into this ridiculous and utterly irrelevant discussion.

You make good points, but why is the example of the Dwarves murdering an entire Elven kingdom for one of the silmarils irrelevant to this discussion? By far, in all the acts of malice, greed, pride and hatred committed by the characters of the Silmarillion, that is one of the worst.

I don't know which was written first, but the Silmarillion strongly contradicts the Appendices regarding the "natural state" of the Dwarves. I tend to base the BW stuff more in the Silmarillion than the trilogy, just because I like it better. In that work, Dwarves evince greed, Elves grief, and Orcs hate.

-L

[jc_madden]

JC, you are a brave man for wading into this ridiculous and utterly irrelevant discussion.

What is often mistaken for bravery is actually a total disregard for personal safety. :lol:

Sadly I tried getting into the Simarillion and I just couldn't enjoy it, so I'm afraid I'm at a loss. I acquiesce to your knowledge thusly. However, men have slain entire tribes of men for less than a Silmaril does that make them inherently greedy too? I digress, in the end though I agree with you a device for building character driven story, if somewhat of a crutch. I just hate the traditional concepts of Greedy Dwarf, Ennui Elf, Hateful Orc, Ice Planet Hoth, yadda yadda ad naseum. I am excited to hear that your new BW has ways for dwarves to overcome their greed.

[luke]

JC, you are a brave man for wading into this ridiculous and utterly irrelevant discussion.

What is often mistaken for bravery is actually a total disregard for personal safety. :lol:

Sadly I tried getting into the Simarillion and I just couldn't enjoy it, so I'm afraid I'm at a loss. I acquiesce to your knowledge thusly. However, men have slain entire tribes of men for less than a Silmaril does that make them inherently greedy too? I digress, in the end though I agree with you a device for building character driven story, if somewhat of a crutch. I just hate the traditional concepts of Greedy Dwarf, Ennui Elf, Hateful Orc, Ice Planet Hoth, yadda yadda ad naseum. I am excited to hear that your new BW has ways for dwarves to overcome their greed.

Ok. So you've seen my work to date. Do you find that I treated Elves in a cliched way? Do you feel like Grief makes them less fun? Less than what is presented in the source material?

[jc_madden]

No I don't I found Elven Grief to be highly original in its orchestration. It seems like a worthy balance for the powerful race, most of the time in fantasy I feel that elves are role-played incorrectly. But I feel like the type of grief an Elf experiences is very much deserved based on their deep emotion and long lives.

I see what you're trying to do and I agree, saying one stereotype is okay and the other is not is hypocritical. In the end as I said before Grief, Greed, and Hate are all devices for playing the uniqueness of the races correctly. Being different about it just to be different is just as bad I guess. Ultimately I guess it's up to the GM and his group to make sure that each character really comes alive and is not just a cookie cutout.

[luke]

Ultimately I guess it's up to the GM and his group to make sure that each character really comes alive and is not just a cookie cutout.

Here's where I disagree with you on a very fundamental. It is equally the responsibility of the game/system to provide a workable foundation and the roots of life for its characters.

Anyway, you guys are just going to have to trust me. The Dwarves are better. Greed has turned into a powerful device in the game. In fact, all the emotional attributes have been polished up and amplified.

You'll see.
-L

[jc_madden]

Here's where I disagree with you on a very fundamental. It is equally the responsibility of the game/system to provide a workable foundation and the roots of life for its characters.


Yes we disagree, no matter how good the system is a bad player/GM can botch it up right quick.