Arguing Armor Variants

[luke]

i made the mistake, this weekend, of dropping armor dice for VA instead of armor DN. But I will tell you, I liked it more.

How would you deal with a called shot to the head with an Axe against a character wearing a simple bascinet? (VA 2 weapon against 1D/DN 4 armor)

-abzu

edited for game geek math

[eruditus]

i made the mistake, this weekend, of dropping armor dice for VA instead of armor DN. But I will tell you, I liked it more.

How would you deal with a called shot to the head with an Axe against a character wearing a simple bascinet? (VA 2 weapon against 1D/DN 4 armor)

-abzu

edited for game geek math

In that case then the helm means nothing. i can ALMOST live with that :) maybe say a minimium of of one die? Chances are, with a called shot to the head with an axe, your not going to survive.

Well, I will have to see if this makes armor a little too useless, however, i did like the way it moved the other night.

[luke]

subtracting dice instead of raising VA sounds very attractive, but i don't know if it would work. I have a sneaking suspicion that it would make armor a little too effective.


In that case then the helm means nothing. i can ALMOST live with that maybe say a minimium of of one die? Chances are, with a called shot to the head with an axe, your not going to survive.


I really strongly disagree. A helmet is designed to protect against just such events. Some helmets do their job better than others and some don't protect against such an attack at all. But for the ones that DO protect there is at least a CHANCE that the armor deflects the blow.

Which is the assumption the current system works on.


The only way I can see to make the "VA=minus dice" thing work is:
Make all Called Shots free of penalty. All attacks MUST be called.
Change Armor to this: Armor DN is 4+, VA reduces dice.
Quilting gives you 1D per Location.
Plated Leather gives you 2D per Loc.
Chain gives 3D per Loc
Plated Chain gives 4D
and Full Plating gives 5D per location.

Thus a VA 2 weapon knocks the armor down by two dice. So VA 2 against Chain would let the defending player roll 1D at DN 4 against an incoming attack. This still much more protective than the current rules where, in the same situation, I can force a player to roll 1D against DN 6.

-abzu

[eruditus]

When your right your right...

this was the mistake I made in my thinking (and your fix makes a certain amount of sense)...

I had not been dealing much with called shots at all. So i was always taking armor dice as a full suit. When you throw called shots into the mix it makes my suggestion much less doable.

I feel that several systems failed in this regard (certainly not the case here) in that the DN was futz'ed with too much. From the earlier editions of the Storyteller system where the target number fluctusted wildly to the newer incarnations where you just add/subtract dice and increase/decrease number of successes needed, the system and the playability has far improved IMHO. That was the goal here. i think this is one of Shadowrun's BIG failures as a system. Instead of requiring more successes at lower target numbers (as BW does) they grossly over inflated the target numbers.

[luke]

I agree. Wildly fluctuating DN/TN is cumbersome. Riddle of Steel has variable TNs and it makes me twitch. Because it is such a good game. I haven't played, though, so I don't know; it might work!

Anyway, I really tried to reduce DN acrobatics as much a possible in BW. But there were a few instances where I just couldn't get away from it.

I know I could have done wounding differently, in fact I've suggested a number of alternatives (I kept it the way it is because I LOVE hurtie wound systems. I love the sinking feeling when you are wounded). But with armor, I've found that this system works best for what I am after.

You are right though, if we disallowed called shots, then maybe we could come up with a die subtractive VA vs Armor system.

But how would this work if you wanted to shoot some one in the unarmored arm or something?

Gah!
-abzu

[eruditus]

so one big thing that stuck in my craw that didn't make sense to me...

So if VA knocks your armor DN past six, you get no dice
BUT
if your wound modifiers knock your DN above six you just lose a die

Personally if your going to use DN modification on armor I think it more consitent and completely viable to stick with the same mechanic as wound modifiers.

No?
Did I mention I liked the fix from the last post?

[eruditus]

The only way I can see to make the "VA=minus dice" thing work is:
Make all Called Shots free of penalty. All attacks MUST be called.
Change Armor to this: Armor DN is 4+, VA reduces dice.
Quilting gives you 1D per Location.
Plated Leather gives you 2D per Loc.
Chain gives 3D per Loc
Plated Chain gives 4D
and Full Plating gives 5D per location.

Thus a VA 2 weapon knocks the armor down by two dice. So VA 2 against Chain would let the defending player roll 1D at DN 4 against an incoming attack. This still much more protective than the current rules where, in the same situation, I can force a player to roll 1D against DN 6.

-abzu

I really like this. I would then add that in a blocking manuever a success can redirect the blow to another hit location first.

ie. opponent gets three successes on a Add 1 weapon to your FACE. You get one success on a block. Move the blow to your chest or arm.

[Claymore]

One thing I was considering for my BW campaign using TRoS combat was to use armour dice in a different way. I'm not wedded to the approach yet (I might just use RoS wounding system and Toughness+armour add, not sure yet). Consider this mechanic as food for thought.

One cool thing about TRoS is that there is no penalty when calling a shot, you simply declare the zone you are aiming for and make your attack. What is random is the EXACT location struck, if you were targeting the body zone, you might hit the Chest, Neck, or Shoulder, but not the foot. You roll a d6, which determines the exact area hit within the location.

Because of this I was toying with the following armour rules:

All shots are called (unlike standard BW, where it is assumed you are always targeting the best area to hit). If you are hit you roll a pool of 3 armour dice, with a TN based upon the type of armour. If using BW damage system, each armor success reduces the wound level by 1. Therefore if you get 1 armour success, you negate an Incidental hit, 2 successes will negate a Mark hit, and all 3 successes will negate a Superb hit. It will also reduce the severity of an attack by the number of successes rolled by the amount of armour successes, so 1 success on the armour dice will reduce a mark hit to an incidental one. The nice thing about the rule is the force of the blow effects the damage deflection (the higher the damage the more successes you need to negate the blow. I was also going to require a majority of armour dice roll 1's (2+), to lose 1 from your pool. I have done this because I feel that armour falls off a little to easy, but that is my own personal opinion. :D

Remember these rules haven't been playtested yet, just a quick idea. Comments are always welcome!


Claymore

Since the level of damage is unaffected by hit location, detailed armor representation seems counter productive. Try a more abstract version.
Armor dice is coverage plus type.
Dice ---- Coverage ---- Type
0 ------- none ----------- thick
1 ------- minimal ------- light
2 ------- 1/3 ------------- medium
3 ------- 2/3 ------------- heavy
4 ------- full
Plus one die to the armor type for reinforcement.
The coverage dice is the obstacle to perception rolls. The type dice is the obstacle to stealthy. The lower of the two subtracts from the speed for movement, minimum speed of one.
The VA of the weapon is the additional successes needed from the armor dice to stop the hit.
A called shot bypasses the armor dice roll. The number of coverage dice are added as obs against the attacker.

[Dwellver]

I thought I was logged in.

Dwellver

[luke]

Um...

Though they may be flawed, I really hope you all appreciate the simple, intuitive and easy to use armor rules i've developed.


Egads man! Simplicity in design! S I D!

And since we've got back to this old horse...
I've just recently read John Keegan's account of the battle of Agincourt. According to his very detailed look at weapons mechanics and wounding during that day, I stand by my armor rules as reasonably representative of the period.

plus they are easy to use.
-abzu

I wondered about the "one success, armor absorbs the blow." It seemed a liitle too overwhelming - what happens to the guy whose armor takes most of the heavy flail but he's beaten back a bit or the effects of getting battered about (pushes?). I think maybe a similar system to weapons would be in order.

With so few dice (I am going off the alternate rules here of armor type determines how many dice in armor) you should probably stick with an Add of one. One success reduces the blow one step, etc.

And change armor die lose to "no successes and any ones" (I think now its -1 die for each one rolled, right? I do not have by books handy).

I also had a stroke of brilliance in my "it's 1am and I need to get to sleep" - Luke's brilliance redirected really - what if VA increased Ob for successful armor check?

I will have to write this all out.

[Kublai]

[quote="Anonymous"]
And change armor die lose to "no successes and any ones" (I think now its -1 die for each one rolled, right? I do not have by books handy).
quote]

Well, it depends on the quality of your armor. Poor quality armor loses a point of armor for each one rolled. Run-of-the-mill armor loses only 1 point of armor per roll despite however many ones you've rolled. Superior quality armor follow the RofM armor, but let's you re-roll any 1's that come up to avoid losing that point. Those re-rolls don't count towards blocking successes, though.

[eruditus]

yeah, I first was thinking that it was too easy to damage armor but I like the perspective of breaking armor while it still saving your life.

[Yagathai]

It seems to me that armor is a bit overpowered in this game. Not that I'm really anxious to make BW any more lethal, but nevertheless it seems a bit odd to me that even a person with a B8 Power and Hands of Iron can get a dozen successes punching someone wearing cuirboulli or lightly plated leather, and if the target rolls even a single success -- poof! No damage from a blow that should, by rights, almost knock over trees and shatter brick walls. In light of that, I have a suggestion:

Each success rolled on an armor die stages damage applied down by a level. So one success would turn a Superb result into a Mark. Two would stage the wound down to an Incidental, and three would negate it completely.

Thoughts?

[luke]

In the example you mention, if someone has a Gray Power, they do indeed blast right through that boiled leather. Mundane armor does not protect against Heroic damage.

Let's suppose that a Troll with a B9 Power and Hooves is kicking a dwarf in a chainmail shirt. That dwarf would technically get an armor save against such an attack IF THE TROLL PERFORMED A BLANKET/GENERAL STRIKE. If the troll player just declared a Strike, and said nothing else to support his attack then he deserves what he gets. Because UNARMED ATTACKS HAVE NO CALLED SHOT PENALTIES. If the troll kicked the dwarf IN THE HEAD then the dwarf is troll food.

Armor dramatically saves your life at the right (or wrong moment). The armor rules DO NOT reflect the exact material strength of your protection, but their strength combined with a little drama. What armor is really protecting against is the incidental or poorly conceived attacks. Any decent fighter can easily think their way past armor. But he must think.

[eruditus]

Besides this has been talked about to death, Yagathai :)

Don't you read early posts? :p

Just kidding. I do this all the time.

[Kublai]

It seems to me that armor is a bit overpowered in this game. Not that I'm really anxious to make BW any more lethal...

:) Are you sure about this? It seems every rule you tweak is designed to make BW more lethal! Case in point, the Coup-de-gras thread! :shock: :wink:

[Yagathai]

Are you sure about this? It seems every rule you tweak is designed to make BW more lethal! Case in point, the Coup-de-gras thread!

Curses! You've found me out! Really I'm an agent of Abzu, working from the outside to make the game as lethal as he really wants it to be. He'd do it himself, but he's afraid that his players would label him a "Killer GM," so he's hired me to do it for him.

Damn you for exposing me!

[Digital Apex]

Um...

Though they may be flawed, I really hope you all appreciate the simple, intuitive and easy to use armor rules i've developed.

Egads man! Simplicity in design! S I D!

plus they are easy to use.
-abzu


Ease of use is THE most important thing if you ask me :D

[Drozdal]

Ease of use is THE most important thing if you ask me
Totally agree with that - armour damadge rules are soo cool - but of course in demo games i failed almost every armour test i got and of course i always rolled 1 on them :P - i think that's my karma "to keep demo players happy"

Drozdal

[eruditus]

Ease of use is THE most important thing if you ask me :DJust to be contrary...

Ease of use can't be the most important think otherwise we wouldn't have strayed so far from "Bang, your dead!" AC is much easier to handle than armor checks. I assume, DA, you don't mean to say armor should just offer OBs to hit?

Rules have to hit a balance between playability and realism. Game that spend too much time covering too much detail become mired in rules and exceptions. Games which are too fluid have no structure with which to understand the world (other than our far too overactive imaginations and our egos).

The issue here is that the armor rules (as were the adequately addressed wounding rules) were a mechanical hiccup in an otherwise REALLY clean system. Not to say they are not well concieved... I think they are. In fact, even if new rules were incorporated I would consider them optional or advanced rules as compared to revisions (which I think the wounds and Artha perspectives are closer to).

[Digital Apex]

Actually, I was trying to say that the more complicated armor rules get the more it will bog down gameplay. Plus, the complexities and variances on the use of actual armor is ridiculous. The way BW works armor currently (From what I have read from the main book) is the best combination of realistic and fictional portrayal of armor I have seen. That is originally one of the many things that drew me to this game.

In truth all armor does is keep you from getting hurt. Technically you could say that it does keep you from getting hit but I believe that's a misnomer. Any good thick leather will protect you from the nicks and cuts that you would suffer in a normal melee. If you wanted to try to make the armor a bit more realistic here are my suggestions. BUT, I am not CHANGING but 1 rule (having the armor eliminate all damage), I am keeping the EXACT same system otherwise.

Suggestion #1: Wound tolerances are eliminated by the type of armor if they make their save:

Skins, Hides, Leather and Quilted Armor = no Superficial wounds
Plated, Reinforced Leather = no Superficial or Light wounds
Chainmail = Superficial, Light, or Midi wounds
Plated Mail = Superficial, Light, Midi, or Severe wounds

System is: Roll Armor Protection Dice as normal if you fail, everything is as normal, otherwise, you take no damage, as long as it is under the tolerance your armor defines the MAXIMUM wound it can protect you from.

Suggestions #2 Reduce the IMS by one or two depending on the armor.

Skins, Hides, Leather, Quilted Armor, Plated and Reinforced Leather reduce IMS by one level and Incidental result before modification = No damage
Chainmail and Plated Mail reduce IMS level by 2 and Incidental and Mark results before modification = No Damage

System is the same in the book.

Suggestion #3 Reduce the wound tolerance by the type of armor worn on a successful roll.

Skins, Hides, Leather and Quilted Armor = -2 wound levels
Plated, Reinforced Leather = -3 wound levels
Chainmail = -4 wound levels
Plated Mail = -5 wound levels

System as normal but armor reduces wounds it does not eliminate them.


Again just throwing out ideas (and a lot more where that came from), but at least these are SIMPLE! :shock: