Help in Combats - Comprehensive Guide

[David Artman]

OK, we've hit upon a bit of a sticky wicket, in last night's play.

GM has, in the past, used Helping Dice for Positioning--four on two Fight--and it's sort of made sense: the two duos, working together can surround and hem in the two singletons.

But then we started a three on three fight. And the GM was trying to give two Helping Dice for Positioning to a single, fastest guy. I cried foul, for the following reasons:
* One fast guy and five of his mooks will almost always win positioning against six guys working solo (splitting up). How's that happen--I can't imagine it?
* Those not involved in the positioning roll have little to do until its time for a scripted action.
* Mix up the arms in either group: OK, now, the 6 v 1+1+1+1+1+1 will win positioning... and, potentially, be at Optimal range with not only two mooks' Small Swords, but also Optimal to two mooks' Spears, one mook's Crossbow, and the fast guy's Sword--WTF?
* Isn't Command involved, at some level, to coordinate a unit's positioning?

So the long and short is: can a BWHQ expert please enumerate the following:
* Ways in which a character can grant Helping Dice, in Fight or (while we're on the subject) in Range & Cover, in terms of positioning before combat and prior to each exchange, and in terms of executing actions during volleys.
* Whether there is any Linked Test (Command) or "leader role" (Command, Intimidate, Stealth, etc) or other mechanical requirement to coordinate the help or the unit(s).

Thanks!

[Rafe]

In Fight!, I'd be extremely leery of having 6 opponents all Helping one another. Actually, screw "leery." I wouldn't do it.

Essentially, they'd all be helping against 1 PC (which they can do, certainly -- I won't argue that) and their actions are bundled, which can create a lot of hurt really fast. It isn't all that fair and it de-emphasizes strategy and the personal feel of combat in BW.

Personally, I'd break them up into pairs. Otherwise, how do the players position against them? PC 1 wants to position against the leader, but does he have to position against the mob instead? It seems a little absurd, to me.

My suggestion would be to use pairs of opponents. That way, they can help each other (and share scripting) but are still in small enough "bundles" for the PCs to employ strategy and such.

Regardless, unless they're trained soldiers with Phalanx-wise or Formation Fighting-wise, 6 people simply aren't likely to be able to operate simultaneously with concision. They'd step on each others' toes more than they'd help.

I don't know about Command and I am certainly no BW expert. The above is my opinion.

[pseudoidiot]

I believe someone from BWHQ at one mentioned that they limit helping on positioning to two helpers, and anything beyond that requires formation training.

There's also the optional slowest-and-loudest rule, where whenever help is going on, whoever has the lowest exponent makes the roll and receives help from others.

[Kublai]

Right, use Slowest and Loudest.

Also, the group will end up in a distance zone according to the one who rolls the dice. So if the roller has a spear and ends up in Optimal and his helpers have daggers, the helpers will all be out of fighting distance.

[David Artman]

Thanks so far, Kublai. So:
* No limit to the number of helpers, by the rules? (Me and my eight mooks position as one on your one guy--might as well skip the roll.)
* No particular Wise or Social skill required by the unit members or their leader, respectively? (Hey, I just hired these eight mooks--look at us coordinate link we have a mental link!)
* Every helper in striking range after the leader positions still can script actions, per normal? (Me and my eight spear men are going to perforate you like a Ker Plunk tower (http://www.toystx.com/shop/images/KER%20PLUNK.jpg)--which one do you use that silly Block action against?)

I can almost see it going a lot of ways... except for bullet 2, which seems like bunkum; and I'd say that in my practical martial experience, more than about 5 on 1 means the rest just swarm around the outside looking for a way in. But, in general, it makes SOME sense that a small mob can pretty much trap, harry, and hem-in one or two folks (i.e. win every positioning test) until the mob's numbers are diminished by individuals hesitating or being down (i.e. the one or two trapped fighters hack and terrify and break through).

But, damn, the mechanical advantage strips a lot of the fun and strategy out of the process, as Rafe mentions....

[Kublai]

Oh, I think there definitely should be limits to Helpers. I'm one of those that supports the limit of 2 without traits or training to increase that. That said, I'm not sure there's a limit in the RAW. But in that regard, whenever the odds get great, we typically resort to a Versus test. By doing this, the numbers become more even allowing a hero to overcome the odds.

As far as using Command or Tactics, I think that's something that ought to be negotiated before the fight. I can easily see these skills being rolled previous to scripting to see if coordinated actions are possible. Pass, yes. Fail, no. Or the player can just say we've been fighting together for

And yes, every helper scripts normally. That is one thing that is certain.

[Rafe]

As far as using Command or Tactics, I think that's something that ought to be negotiated before the fight. I can easily see these skills being rolled previous to scripting to see if coordinated actions are possible.

I can see using Command in a situation where the character might not be acting, but is attempting to coordinate a small unit, or leaders of multiple units, to fight in coordination with the character's desires. (I need to read up on Command, actually.)


And yes, every helper scripts normally. That is one thing that is certain.

Really? I didn't think that was the case. Couldn't everyone then help each other anyway, and still have their own scripted actions? I'm likening that to the MG scenario where every roll in a conflict is essentially helped by the other mice (yes, that's a sweeping generalization, but it would be standard). That seems a bit powerful for BW conflicts. For instance, in DoW, you typically only have two sides, with a primary speaker on each side (and others helping those spokespeople). It's not the same for Fight!, I thought.

Now I'm confused because I'm not sure if we're talking about helping with positioning, or positioning and actions both. If I'm helping you vs Scumbag 1, I can give you a help die for us both to Close or Maintain or whatever relative to one opponent (or paired opponents), but I can't help your Strike action and also roll one of my own with a help die from you. ... can I?

[Kublai]

::blink:: hwa? Now I'm confused.

We both have the same Positioning scripted, so it's ok for you to help me. I roll and you abide by the results of my test. After positioning, we play out our Actions separately. (Unless it's a Lock or something, in which you can Help me again.)

[Rafe]

Okay, phew. That was my understanding. I had thought you were implying that actions could be helped with (ie, Strike people helping other Strikes, etc.).

We're all good. :) I knew about (and love) the similar positioning intents vs the same opponent = you can help, and both/all players abide by the results of the positioning.

[stormsweeper]

The books only mention helping with positioning in a few places, the aforementioned traits (e.g. Pack Hunter) and training skills (e.g. Formation Fighting).

[technomonkey]

I think you can help with actions like Strike too, but that means you give up your own Strike to help another character (just as you give up your own positioning to help).